Unbridled Exuberant Arrogance

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I would not argue those points and they are well taken. My point was this....it's a team effort and all of these agencies are involved with spying on Americans, and it took no direct order from the top to set things up.

If all these things are coming from ONE man at the top, and he's the only one calling the shots....then is it safe to say we are in a dictatorship? If we announced that very thing right now, would most be calling it a theory, a fringe tin foil hat person, a nut case perhaps? I mean to say.....we can't have it both ways.

Just for conversation, which is it? :D Like yoou said, Congress is fat and happy so they do whatever it takes to continue that gravy train, so they are indeed mute at this point, and not to be considered part of the process?

There is just NO WAY POSSIBLE to divert resources without someone knowing it.

Any who, I have to run. I just sold my old boat and have to run the batteries over to the guys house. Maybe I can try to lay out how it works when I get back.

Look up USSID 18 during the time I am gone. Consider it homework! LOL!! :p
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
These are protocols and guidelines for data collection. Next question would be this....

Can you give me a for instance on the last time a government agency adhered to protocols and guidelines within the written law? :rolleyes: :D This is the current problem as the OP pronounced, and the rules be darned.

Let's see, first congress allows the fed reserve (signed by Wilson), then they allow the IRS as the collector agency, they then absconded from declaration of war, allowed being taken off the gold standard, supported the Patriot Act etc etc. Who filled the void?

Put another way....if laws were adhered to, how are we in such trouble? It's not working like it's supposed to because that's advantage populace. Laws are obviously not written for them to go by and they don't.

You may have left for all the right reasons of integrity, honor, and moral obligation....but don't think for a moment that seat sat long enough to get cold. LOL
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
These are protocols and guidelines for data collection. Next question would be this....

Can you give me a for instance on the last time a government agency adhered to protocols and guidelines within the written law? :rolleyes: :D This is the current problem as the OP pronounced, and the rules be darned.

Let's see, first congress allows the fed reserve (signed by Wilson), then they allow the IRS as the collector agency, they then absconded from declaration of war, allowed being taken off the gold standard, supported the Patriot Act etc etc. Who filled the void?

Put another way....if laws were adhered to, how are we in such trouble? It's not working like it's supposed to because that's advantage populace. Laws are obviously not written for them to go by and they don't.

You may have left for all the right reasons of integrity, honor, and moral obligation....but don't think for a moment that seat sat long enough to get cold. LOL

I am only responsible for my own actions.

On a side note, the site that I was assigned to at the time I quit is closed. It closed not long after I left.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. That means no more illegal wire-tapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary."

- Senator Barack Obama, 2007
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
There is no "WE THE PEOPLE", just us "wee-people". We Americans are a very BRAVE & COURAGEOUS PEOPLE when it comes to fighting FOREIGN ENEMIES, however when it comes to DOMESTIC ENEMIES we continually VOTE THEM INTO OFFICE. Both party's are ENEMIES of our CONSTITUTION. DEMOCRATS blame REPUBLICANS, & REPUBLICANS blame DEMOCRATS, while those in power sit back & laugh at all us "wee-people". :mad:

Fixed it for you.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
What I'd really like is for him to be nailed to a cross and planted on display for a few weeks just outside the fence in front of the White House Lawn, but that might be construed as having some slight racist overtones, as well.
Just don't light the cross on fire and it will be cool.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. That means no more illegal wire-tapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary."

- Senator Barack Obama, 2007

If only I had a dollar for every time this you know what lied and cheated. I'd be on the top 100 richest list.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
If Eric Holder can survive this and if Hillary Clinton gets deeply entangled in the Benghazi incident, Holder could have a shot as the Democratic front runner for president/vice president in 2016. The Democrats are putting together a second string team should Hillary crash and burn. Already endorsed by former Congressperson Barney Frank; the team of former Congressman Tony Weiner and Eric Holder is gaining momentum.
 

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It just keep getting better and better.

We all know by now that this hit the fan because of the leak by Edward Snowden, the former CIA employee and NSA contract worker who worked for Booz Allen Hamilton, a contract security firm employed by the NSA.

Snowden made the comment, "Any analyst at any time can target anyone. Any selector. Anywhere," he said. "I, sitting at my desk, had the authority to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president if I had a personal e-mail."

That claim is "absolutely outrageous," former NSA and CIA director Michael Hayden says. Snowden "was not a collector," and no low-ranking contractor like him would have the authority to access anyone's phone calls or read anybody's emails. {nothing to see here, move along now}

Robert Deitz, a former top lawyer at the NSA and CIA, agrees that Snowden's boast is a "complete and utter" falsehood. It's ridiculous. It's complete crapola. First of all it's illegal. There is enormous oversight. They have keystroke auditing. There are, from time to time, cases in which some analyst is [angry] at his ex-wife and looks at the wrong thing, and he is caught and fired. His claims not only ignore the procedures and legal approvals that would be required for any kind of wiretapping, but also seem to reflect a Hollywood-type fantasy about how intelligence agencies work." {really REALLY nothing to see here, move along now}

As for how Snowden even got access to the court order that he leaked, "It's extraordinarily closely held," he said. Fewer than 100 people likely would have permission to see such an order. Why is he gaining access to the crown jewels?" he said of Snowden, who has no university degree or extensive intelligence training. "It's likely that he overstepped his bounds." {O RLY?}

"And all it took was him helping some senior person with an IT issue, and he may have had access to possibly that person's password. Once that happens, then all bets are off," said Cedric Leighton, a former deputy director of training at the NSA and retired Air Force colonel.

{I can tell you one thing for certain, after spending more than a month working and sleeping inside the Pentagon in the time leading up to two days before the invasion of Iraq, doing hard drive data recovery and systems reintegration, I had Top Secret and exhaustive SCI clearances that spanned a cornucopia of compartments which enabled me to do the work. But I also had insane access to compartments and classified data for which I had no clearance whatsoever. There is no doubt in my mine that a low-level IT geek like Snowden, with direct access to the NSA servers and hard driver, could do anything he wanted to do.}

Of course, it's difficult to evaluate the claims of the officials, or those of Snowden because the organization operates in almost total secrecy. But do take into account that despite Clapper's assertion that he knows of no way that it's possible for a single individual at the NSA to single out and listen to an individual phone conversation without a warrant and going through the proper procedures, and others have gone to great lengths to show how it's technically impossible, and the NSA doesn't listen in to Americans' phone conversations without a warrant anyway, we know for a fact that the NSA has A Story of Surveillance "secret" listening rooms at AT&T and other carriers where they vacuum up mountains of internet and telephone data that is streamed through a special room for that purpose.

OK, so secret listening room to collect data, Snowden claims that he, a lowly technical analyst, or anyone else including other low-level non-collectors could at any time listen in on any phone conversation they wanted, a claim that has been flatly and vehemently denied by the NSA. With me so far?

Despite those who believe the data that was being collected by the NSA was metadata only and not the contents of phone calls (sorry Leo), the National Security Agency has now acknowledged in a new classified briefing that it does not need court authorization to listen to domestic phone calls, that they do it all the time, and anyone, including a low-level analyst can do it.

Just the opposite of what the NSA has been saying up to this point. And just exactly what Snowden said is happening.

Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, disclosed on Thursday that during a secret briefing to members of Congress, he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed "simply based on an analyst deciding that."

"I was rather startled," he said. That's one way of putting it, I guess.

Not only does this disclosure shed more light on how the NSA's formidable eavesdropping apparatus works domestically, it also suggests the Justice Department has secretly interpreted federal surveillance law to permit thousands of low-ranking analysts to eavesdrop on phone calls.

Because the same legal standards that apply to phone calls also apply to e-mail messages, text messages, and instant messages, being able to listen to phone calls would mean the NSA analysts could also access the contents of Internet communications without going before a court and seeking approval.

AT&T and other telecommunications companies that allow the NSA to tap into their fiber links receive absolute immunity from civil liability or criminal prosecution, thanks to a law that Congress enacted in 2008 and renewed in 2012. It's a series of amendments to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, also known as the FISA Amendments Act.

A requirement of the 2008 law is that the NSA "may not intentionally target any person known at the time of acquisition to be located in the United States." Clearly, the NSA's interpretation of that language is that the agency may vacuum up anything and everything it can domestically, on the on the theory that indiscriminate data acquisition was not intended to "target" a specific American citizen. Once they have it in the vacuum tube, they can do anything they want with it. And since they have everything int he vaccum tube, there ya go.

What do you think the new NSA facility in Utah is for, or the new one being built in Maryland?

Back in 2007 the then Director of National Intelligence, Michael McConnell, stated during a House Intelligence hearing that the NSA's surveillance process involves "billions" of bulk communications being intercepted, analyzed, and incorporated into a database. The data can be accessed by an analyst who's part of the NSA's "workforce of thousands of people" who are "trained" annually in minimization procedures, he said. He assured the Committe in the public hearing that at no time does the NSA listen in on domestic phone calls, nor do they have the intention or the capability to do so, despite having the capability to listen in on the phone calls originating in or terminating from a foreign country, or even domestically if both parties are of foreign citizenry.

McConnell said during a separate separate congressional appearance around the same time that he believed the president had the constitutional authority, no matter what the law actually says, to order domestic spying without warrants.

Back in 2009 a New York Times article revealed the NSA engaged in significant and systemic "overcollection" of Americans' domestic communications that alarmed intelligence officials. The Justice Department said in a statement at the time that it "took comprehensive steps to correct the situation and bring the program into compliance" with the law. We now know that to be a lie. Shocking, I know.

A week ago on June 12, the current NSA Director Keith Alexander said that his agency's analysts abide by the law: "They do this lawfully. They take compliance oversight, protecting civil liberties and privacy and the security of this nation to their heart every day." We now that's a lie, too. And a big one.

Oh, yeah, back in 2007 when Michael McConnel was the liar-liar-pants-on-fire Director of National Intelligence, do you know what he does for a living now? He's the Vice Chariman of... wait for it.... ta-da! Booz Allen Hamilton, Snowden's former employer.

Ya just can't make it up.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Nope, it can't be made up, and it's nothing new. Clinton ordered those same type of taps.
You once asked me if the fact that I was not privy to our country's secrets was what upset me so much about the intelligence community.

The answer was/is no - it's the abuses of power and the crimes committed - particularly those committed against the citizens of this nation - that really frosts my cakes.

3 NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower: We told you so
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
.- it's the abuses of power and the crimes committed - particularly those committed against the citizens of this nation - that really frosts my cakes.
That's exactly it. Secrets are sometimes necessary, and everyone should be entitled to their privacy and secrets, individuals and governments alike. But when you start using your privacy and secrets to abuse others and commit crimes, it's a big fat hairy deal, whether you're an individual or a government.

That's one awesome video there, RLENT. Three calm, collected, matter-of-fact spooks telling it like it is. It's chilling the contempt of the government for its governed.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You once asked me if the fact that I was not privy to our country's secrets was what upset me so much about the intelligence community.

The answer was/is no - it's the abuses of power and the crimes committed - particularly those committed against the citizens of this nation - that really frosts my cakes.

3 NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower: We told you so

What frosts my cakes is that, at least it seems, that you only blame the "community" and NEVER those who put out the orders. It is the congress and the presidents who are in charge and must shoulder the bulk of the blame.

It is not as black and white as you think it is. The "orders" we get often are just a list of numbers and letters, called "case notations". They seldom, if ever, equate to an individual. They are a "tower" or a "unit" etc. We also had NO idea whether the "orders" were legal, since they are just letters and numbers is it not very easy to tell.

Veterans, like I was, were better at figuring out what was going on, which is why I left. I figured it out. I was no longer doing the job I was hired to do, which I was good at. I refused to get good at protecting Clinton's drug interests.

Also, numbers, you link is to 3 NSA Vets. There were 30,000 when I worked there. There are MANY more sides to the story.

Nothing is as simple or black and white as you wish it to be. I wish it were.

There were/are far more good apples in the barrel then bad ones. It is those in charge that are the biggest problem.

I am in NO way making excuses for the excesses of individuals. Keep in mind, that everyone in the "community" is entitled to the same presumption of innocence that you and I are now.

Now, IF you want to see where the bulk of the problem lies start with Obama, he is in charge, then, check out this crowd, the Senate Select Committee. THEY, the ruling class are the problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_Select_Committee_on_Intelligence
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Just in case you were wondering, and even if you were not, I do not know two of those three men in that article. I DO know Mr. Wiebe VERY well. He and I worked together for more than 5 years. VERY good man. I trust his judgement.

I am surprised he is still alive, he was "HYPER" to a fault at times. He was one my supervisors during my "best" years. We did a LOT of very good work together. It all started to go down hill after we parted ways.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
What frosts my cakes is that, at least it seems, that you only blame the "community" and NEVER those who put out the orders. It is the congress and the presidents who are in charge and must shoulder the bulk of the blame.
The problem is, clearly, the NSA isn't as honest with the congress or the president as they should be. Plus, neither congress nor the president understand what all is going on, anyway.

I mean, one day after the NSA admitted that they not only have the capability to listen in on your telephone calls or target your e-mails, but they have been doing those very things for quite a while now, we have President Obama saying, “What I can say unequivocally is that if you are a U.S. person, the NSA cannot listen to your telephone calls, and the NSA cannot target your emails … and have not.”

Obama also said the entire process the NSA uses to gather intelligence, in e-mails and phone calls, is 'transparent." He said it's transparent because they use the FISA Court to do it. Never mind the fact that the FISA Court is a secret court, is not transparent, and has never denied a request. That's how clueless he is about what the NSA does. And he knows more about it than Congress does. OMG.

We have congress creating legislation for the "orders" you speak, but then the NSA interprets that legislation and its orders in secret, and gets secret court orders from a secret court that approves everything and never denies a request. The president and congress are in charge, and are hardly blameless, but when the NSA is interpreting and implementing its orders to further promote its won secrecy and autonomy, and lying to congress about what they do, they are creating a reality of oversight that doesn't exist. The blame should be shouldered by right where it lies, by the "community" itself.

The NSA as a community doesn't care about the right of privacy of Americans, all they care about is getting their data. The word used was "bamboozled" to very accurately describe what the NSA has done to the President and Congress. Your cakes are just gonna have to stay frosted, 'cause there is no way you're gonna be able to defend that.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
No matter how you look at it the president, the congress and the People, are the problem. The People, the voters, being the biggest problem of all.

The civilian government, the representatives of the People, has the responsibility of oversight, and for very good reason. The possibility of excesses or even military control over the people is why we have civilian control. IF on assumes that the congress, and the president, are that easily bamboozled, we are in SERIOUS trouble. That would prove that we keep electing, and reelecting idiots with little or no experience or sense. OR, the president and the congress are in cahoots. or a mix of both.

Keep electing politicians, keep electing people with ZERO experience, keep electing people who are only in it for their own power and this will continue.

I am NOT saying that there has not been excesses. I am NOT saying there have not been crimes committed. I AM saying that putting the blame ONLY on the agencies insures that this problem WILL continue.

The congress, for decades, have been handing over the powers reserved to the People, to the bureaucracy. It is becoming, or has become, the 4th branch of government. One can see the same excesses in the BATFE, the DOT etc.

Until the People take back their control of the government these things will continue to expand until there is nothing left of the Nation and our Constitution. It may be too late now.

ANY government, ANY agency can, and will get out of control, if allowed or encouraged to do so.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
No matter how you look at it the president, the congress and the People, are the problem. The People, the voters, being the biggest problem of all.
While understandable that you have a need to do so, sorry, you cannot blame everyone other than the people who committed the abuses and the crimes for the crimes and abuses committed. The NSA is not the victim here. The NSA didn't do these things because they were allowed to do them, they did them because they wanted to and then lied about doing them.

We have experienced people in the Congress, and with the exception of the present president we've had experienced people in the Oval Office, including one former Director of the CIA, and we have experienced people in The People, and all have been lied to and bamboozled by the NSA. Under the blanket of security and secrecy, the NSA has told the President, members of Congress and the American people exactly what they wanted to tell them, intentionally leaving a false impression of oversight that doesn't exist. Even the highest ranking members of the civilian government who are supposed to know all the details weren't given all the details, and were lied to instead. The few civilians in government who do actually know the details, and could put a stop to the abuses, are former spooks themselves and have the same mindset as the abusers (I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you). Geezus meezus.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
First off, NSA is not the criminal, SOME people at NSA are. Just as the vast majority are not. The same as every truck driver is not a criminal because some drive drunk.

NSA, and all intel agencies are highly comparmentalized. A top secret clearance does not give access to anything. One has to be cleared for each and every project they work on. When they leave that project, they lose access, but you know that.

SO, say I worked in "A" group. Which I did for most of my career. I have no idea but I will make it up. Prism is housed in "Q" group. There may be several thousand in "Q" group but only 30 have clearance for Prism. Is everyone in "Q" guilty of excesses? Are those in "A" responsible for the problems with a project that they have NO idea even exists?


Second, why is the Congress NOT competent to insure proper oversight? If even some are able to get away with it then they are NOT doing their job.

Former head of the CIA? Panetta? Is that the dud you are speaking of? A political hack. There was nothing in his past that prepared him for that job at CIA or as Sec of Defense. Just ANOTHER Obama shill.

I not not excusing those who did wrong, as I have repeatedly stated. I am also not willing to dismiss the root cause, which is a total lack of oversight. If it is even a lack of oversight, or was it planned?
 
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