True Americans

[Tennesseahawk]

I said THEY can talk about their government without getting arrested. Didn't say anything about outsiders talking about their religion, or stuff about car bombings.

Also... how much of the resistance force is actually Iraqis? My guess is around 20-30%.

 

[bryan]

Hi
Just had to get in on what is probably a record (# of replys).

I liked Bush until he gave the world a choice (Your either with us or against us)Who every wrote that speak should be fired.The countries that didn't see eye to eye with us on invading Iraq should of been listened too.Some had more insight than we did.If we based our business decisions on hearing only what we wanted to hear, we would all be broke.

The handling of Afganastan is unexcusable in my eyes.We should of finished what we started (Finding Bin Laden)before going to Iraq.Now we are fighting a war on to fronts and history has shone this doesn't work.

I feel we have played right into the terrorist hands.They wanted to pull us into a war that they have been fighting among themselves for years.Muslem extremist VS muslim modernist.They wanted our economy to collapse.And they wanted to publisize their opinions and way of life.The way I see it they are ahead 3 to 0.We can't keep on going the way this adminastration wants to go.R or D I don't care who's in office just so long as we win.I enjoy being an American too much to give it up.

 

[greg334]

You wrote – “I liked Bush until he gave the world a choice (Your either with us or against us)Who every wrote that speak should be fired. The countries that didn't see eye to eye with us on invading Iraq should of been listened too. Some had more insight than we did. If we based our business decisions on hearing only what we wanted to hear, we would all be broke.â€

Well I partially agree with you. The problem is that unless we stand firm, we have no standing in the world. We as a country have been the worlds police, bank and main source of aid, which the UN has demanded us to do more where they failed miserably. Insight – nope, I would rather say look at their connection to the UN and what they lost because of our actions.

You wrote – “The handling of Afghanistan is unexcusable in my eyes. We should of finished what we started (Finding Bin Laden) before going to Iraq. Now we are fighting a war on to fronts and history has shone this doesn't work.â€

I agree, the Afghanistan was handled not done right but we have several serious problems, one is Pakistan and the support for bin laden on the border. This has always been the problem, until Pakistan decides to let us occupy the area or go into the mountains themselves, we won’t get him. We have to destroy the support in order for him to crawl out of the cave he is living in but the mountain people like him. Also Pakistan and India is still not politically stable, with nukes on both sides – there are serious issues we need to be worried about. And dumb American’s not realizing we are giving our personal data to the enemy through outsourcing, we have to be very careful not to trigger anything that will turn Pakistan against us.

You Wrote – “I feel we have played right into the terrorist hands. They wanted to pull us into a war that they have been fighting among themselves for years. Muslem extremist VS muslim modernist. They wanted our economy to collapse. And they wanted to publicize their opinions and way of life. The way I see it they are ahead 3 to 0.We can't keep on going the way this administration wants to go. R or D I don't care who's in office just so long as we win. I enjoy being an American too much to give it up.â€

Well I don’t think we played into their hands, what we did was backed down from our posture that we had in 2002. See they see our weaknesses and this is what they feed on. They see a divided country, people that want to see us lose within the country, elected officials who challenge our leadership without consideration of what harm it does to the troops, the mission or ultimately the country. They don’t want to publicize their opinions or way of life – they want us to live as they feel we should live like them under their control – no freedoms.

 

[highway star]

The "with us or against us" statement was not about Iraq specificaly, but about the war on terror in general. It is a fair statement that any country that believes in freedom should be with us. The needle in the haystack would be a cakewalk compared to finding the cave BinLaden's in.

 

[ACE]

I agree with you Highway Star that all nations who support freedom should be with us.

Remember it took over 5 years to capture the bomber that attacked the 96 olympics in Atlanta, and he was hiding in N.Carolina. They captured him when he made a mistake. It is hard to find someone if they have people helping them hide. Osama's day will come like all lunatics.

 

[LDB]

You're either with us or against us. Doesn't matter who says it, it's still true. bin laden et al are against us. They need to be ferreted out and exterminated. We are pursuing that. For everyone on the planet, including Kerry, McCain et al, they're either with us or against us.

Leo Bricker, owner trucks 3034, 4958
OOIDA 677319
73's K5LDB
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator 1+ Years of Service
-----
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[tallcal101]

Just a few comments.
Civil war now seems a very strong possibility.Yesterday, Rumsfeld and Rice asked for another billion or so(whats another bill at this point)without clearly answering questions about "what if"this things goes to hell in a hand basket.Rumsfelt's answer was something like:it's up to Iraqi security to handle.Ah,which Iraqi security is that?
This now has nothing to do with the supposed war on terror(the terrorists having won this round,and are stronger then ever and thriving on our failures).
With W continuing to bumble his way to now even lower poll numbers,(we have lost our leadership),our struggle is now very unclear,and "with us or against us"is a statment that lacks clearity or meaning with out defining who "us" is.
I,for one,no longer consider me among the "us"if that means "us"are our failed leaders who are losing the war on terror and shaking in their boots.The result of going to war with no plan is exactly what we are seeing unfold.Tell me I'm wrong Greg,and don't invoke Carter,Kerry or Clinton.
Thank you

 

[ACE]

Tallcal101,

I think your wrong about us loosing the war on terror.

I believe the word "us" is describing our nation.

So you are either with the USA or not. If you are a citizen of the USA I guess they are talking about you.

 

[tallcal101]

You maybe right Ace,I just don't understand how we are sure we are winning.This enemy cannot be measured by traditional means of measurmeant.If making Iraq look like Vermont is the measurmeant,I would say we are losing.Remember,our President has been steadfast in insisting we are fighting the war on terror in Iraq.Kind of like when he said"bring em on".Bring what on?Bring who on?He got his wish.
So by measuring success based on Iraq,sorry,can't call it a win(not yet anyway)I don't consider knocking out Sadam anything,as he had no,or little,proven link to terrorism.
So,we have not been attacked again,a win.
Bin Laden is still large,making fun of us(a loss)
Bin Ladens niece to have her own reality show(a loss,I guess)Not sure on this one.
Bush continues to make us all look like a ship of fools.A loss
Don't know Ace,guess winning and losing this elusive war is up to the individual.With 70% of the nation now in dissagreement with W's policy on Iraq, guess that would have to go in the lost column.
I know I'll know when we win,it will be when the troops come home.
I guess that will be when every home in Iraq looks like a Martha Stwart post card and has window box's with pretty flowers blooming.Oh yea,and when the streets don't have s*** mixed with blood running through them.
I know who Us and Them are,I've been Them all my adult life,no less an American then you or Leo or Greg.

 

[highway star]

You were right about the difficulty in measuring success in the war on terror. We're in uncharted waters with this. I fear that my kids will be dealing with this the rest of their lives. But, it must be done. I find it hard to believe that Sadam was'nt involved with terrorists. He's a bad man, driven by a grandiose ego, that used WMD on his own people. He had to go.

 

[tallcal101]

I think your right Star,it may be many years before this situation is resolved.Let's hope our kids and their kids find a better way to resolve religious and social difference's.
If we teach tolorance and acceptance at home,and in our schools,it's a start.We did'nt have a civil rights law in this country until 1964,even though our Bill Of Rights states all men are created equal.

 

[ACE]

We are more understanding of differences than any other country in the world. We do not riot over cartoons. We have allowed liberal thinking to dominate our social thought since the 60's. I believe some of the liberal accomplishments helped to make our country stronger, but to many of them undermind family values and discipline.

We also seen a decline in America first thinking. We no longer incourage imigrants to make english their first language. We allow to many culture differences to dictate how our schools are run.

In certain areas a common philosphy would help the advancement of our country to further its place as the dominate economical and military power of the world.

We must do this as an inclusive nation , but not let it undermind our main purpose.

 

[tallcal101]

Keep in mind our forefathers were rebels from the same intolorance's that are driving the world today.By any other name,intolorance derives and springs from the same ugly place today as it did 200 plus years ago.It is why our shores and borders are forever convulsing with those trying to get in.There lies the problem.

 

[greg334]

Couldn’t stay away! I think I am being setup, lol.

Tallcal101, our bill of rights says what? All men are created equal? Sorry need to correct you, it was the declaration of independence; “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.â€

Well our fore fathers were rebels, yes this is true, but we did not become a country due to intolerance or lack of acceptance, it had to do with a deep routed issue of money, power and the right to choose one’s destiny without government interference. Amazing what they fought and died for we now readily accept as a way of life, being controlled by a more ever reaching government that is more intrusive in out lives day by day.

oh well I will stop now.

 

[tallcal101]

Your right,I guess the Church of England of the 16th and 17th century was just a loving and tolorant place of worship,a mild mannered counrty church in the woods. I still have that ocean front property in Arizona Greg.Interested yet.........

 

[greg334]

>Your right,I guess the Church of England of the 16th and
>17th century was just a loving and tolorant place of
>worship,a mild mannered counrty church in the woods. I still
>have that ocean front property in Arizona Greg.Interested
>yet.........


No argument about the Church of England, but remember that our founding fathers were not too fond of Jews and Catholics, pretty much treating them badly in the northern colonies but surprisingly flourished in the southern colonies. There is something form Franklin about keeping a check on certain religions that were not in agreement with the majority, hence WASP.

Now don’t take this wrong, the founding fathers all saw an opportunity to make everyone’s life better, I really have felt that this was Jefferson’s intent with the Declaration and the push for a lot more equality for all during the rest of his life time.

If you read the founding fathers writings, take in account the DAILY events that were going on before during and after the founding of our country (stamp tax, lack of representation, embargos, piracy, punitive confiscation of property, restrictions on the press and other economic related issues) and see what their wealth level was, you will see that they all had something to lose if they didn’t act in their best interest. Sam Adams was really concerned about his losses during the Stamp act for example. Most of them were of wealth and had a station in life that far exceeded the majority of the people and it was these elite that decided to form the country, not the common person who would have taken the brunt of the punishment if we would have lost the struggle. The division within the country was so severe that Washington in one of his diaries (I think) made comments about the Tories and their effort to see that the ‘rebels’ lost. Remember that a lot of citizens went to Canada after 1776 and through the 1790’s because of their allegiance with England.

 

[RichM]

My wife has ancestors that have been in this country for ever. They lived in the Boston area and one of them even donated a building of some kind to Harvard University when they were starting upin 1740 or
so. They were merchants and professional types for that era but then when the Revolutionary war broke out they high tailed it to Canada. Their allegiance was to England and they eventually wound up in Nova Scotia. They stayed there about 50 years and finally realized the Church of England was controlling so much of their lives they came back to the US.

The purpose of this post is too say that if all religions just forget about power and let people who disagree with them alone the world would be a much better place.

Wife also has an ancestor who signed the original Magna Carter in England back in 1250 or so,but there were probaly only about 50 people who could write back then. We have some fascinating documents that support this ,that have been handed down over the years.

 

[DocRushing]

King John signed the Magna Carta in 1215 at Runnymede.