Tolerence or Intolerence....

[chefdennis]

Should or shouldn't they be allowed to build this Muslum center??

I posted this as a "spinoff" off to OVM's founders and Religion post...

It is Just another opinion...

KUHNER: Radical Islam's conquest of America

Welcome to the United States of Arabia

By Jeffrey T. Kuhner
The Washington Times
6:41 p.m., Thursday, August 5, 2010
KUHNER: Radical Islam's conquest of America - Washington Times

America is surrendering in the war against radical Islam. This is the real meaning behind the decision to build a 13-story mosque and Mus- lim cultural center 600 feet from the site of ground zero. A New York City panel gave the green light Tuesday for the project - despite intense resistance from many families of the victims of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Most New Yorkers and Americans do not want this mosque erected: It will be a symbolic monument to the triumph of Islamism in the United States.

Ground zero is more than where the World Trade Center came crashing down. It is not simply where an immense crime took place. Rather, it is the site of an act of war, hallowed ground that contains the blood of 3,000 human beings, mostly Americans, murdered on that fateful day. Like Pearl Harbor, it is a national shrine that should be dedicated to honor the memory of the victims - an eternal reminder of the atrocity perpetrated by Islamic fascism on U.S. soil.

The Sept. 11 attacks were committed by Muslim extremists in the name of holy war against the West. They used the Koran and Islamic principles to justify their actions. Their goal was to bring jihad to America, unleashing a clash of civilizations. Across the world, Islamists seek to impose a world Muslim empire based on Shariah law. Ground zero is where the war came home to America.

Hence, the building of this mosque is a sacrilegious act - a deliberate slap in the face to the victims, their families and all Americans. It also is why the sponsors of this project refuse to back down. They realize what is at stake: The mosque will cast a giant, dark shadow over ground zero, serving as a testament to the Islamist conquest of America. If Islamism can impose its will near the site of Sept. 11, then it can impose its will anywhere.

The imam spearheading the initiative, Feisal Abdul Rauf, is an unrepentant militant Muslim, an Islamist fellow traveler. He has said publicly that "United States policies were an accessory" to the Sept. 11 attacks. In other words, in his view, we brought the atrocities upon ourselves. He is a defender of Hamas, justifying the mass murder of innocent Jews (and Palestinians). He has called for the introduction of Shariah law courts in America. In short, he openly seeks the Islamization of America.

Mr. Rauf is a typical Islamist hypocrite: He uses the U.S. Constitution to demand the exercise of religious freedom while advocating for Shariah law, which fuses church and state and seeks to subjugate non-Muslims. Islamists are using our freedoms in an effort to destroy our freedoms.

Moreover, much of the $100 million in funding for the mosque is coming from Saudi Arabia. Riyadh has been aggressively supporting the building of madrassas and mosques around the world. The Saudi regime promotes Wahhabism, a particularly virulent strain of Islam. For example, Christian churches and synagogues are banned in Saudi Arabia; religious persecution is rampant. Yet no one - not New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, state Attorney General Andrew Cuomo or any other sanctimonious liberal supporter of the ground-zero mosque - has bothered to investigate the sources of Mr. Rauf's funding. Are Wahhabists behind the mosque? If so, it probably will become a forum for hatred and extremism - just like a Saudi-funded mosque in Northern Virginia where the al-Qaeda-linked cleric Anwar al-Awlaki preached the virtues of jihadism.

Instead of addressing these issues, liberals such as Mr. Bloomberg are wrapping themselves in the flag of religious freedom. "The World Trade Center site will forever hold a special place in our city, in our hearts," he said. "But we would be untrue to the best part of ourselves, and who we are as New Yorkers and Americans, if we said no to a mosque in Lower Manhattan."

Mr. Rauf also claims that his goal is an eminently tolerant one: to foster "cross-cultural" understanding and "interfaith" dialogue. Besides, as ground-zero mosque supporters argue, the cultural center will be built not on the site of the World Trade Center, but two blocks away.

Yet its proximity is precisely the problem. The ground-zero mosque infuriates so many people because the building in which it will be housed was physically damaged by debris from the crumbling towers during the Sept. 11 assault. The location was part of the wreckage; it falls within the battle zone, the immediate circumference where the attacks occurred. This is why this issue exacerbates so many emotional wounds.

Religious freedom is a red herring. Muslims are free to build mosques anywhere else in New York City - or America, for that matter. If Mr. Rauf were truly serious about fostering peaceful religious coexistence, he could - and would - pick any other more ideal location in a residential community. The backlash has been furious and passionate; the anger and rage among the families of the victims have been palpable. Their feelings have been discarded. They have been ignored - even lectured to. Mr. Rauf could end all of this through a gesture of respect and goodwill. Yet he will not - and that speaks volumes. His ideological agenda trumps compassion and common sense.

The battle over the ground-zero mosque is more than another battle in the heated culture wars. It is a watershed moment: the point at which liberal multiculturalism capitulated to the relentless march of political Islam. Muslim radicals around the world rightly will view it as a triumph over the feckless American infidel: Even the site of their deadliest attack against America is not free from Islam's looming presence. This event signifies the loss - the defeat - of American will and purpose in the struggle against jihad.

It is not coincidental that the mosque's name, Cordoba House, takes after the city in southern Spain that marked one of radical Islam's greatest conquests in Europe during the Middle Ages. Cordoba was a major center in the global caliphate being erected by the rampaging Islamists of the time - the very caliphate that Osama bin Laden and his allies seek to restore. A giant mosque was built upon the ruins of a Catholic church. For Islamists, erecting mosques on defeated territories is a sign of subjugation - the submission of infidels to Allah's rule.

The sad irony is that most of the victims of Islamic fascism have been Muslims - fellow co-religionists - slaughtered by medieval barbarians. The ground-zero mosque disgraces them as much as everyone else. Mr. Bloomberg could have done the right thing and opposed the building of the mosque. Yet his actions show that liberalism is defenseless in the face of Islamic supremacism - as it is all across Europe.

The United States of Arabia has arrived.

Jeffrey T. Kuhner is a columnist at The Washington Times and president of the Edmund Burke Institute, a Washington think tank. He is the host of "The Kuhner Show" on WTNT 570-AM (570 WTNT YOUR TALK STATION) from 5 to 7 p.m.

If you haven't listen to Jeffery yet, you might want to do so...he is very good....

 

[bobwg]

They Should build it but some where else

 

[chefdennis]

Not to argue, I have no love lost for the muslum religion, but how far away is far enough!?!? 5 blocks, 10 blocks, across town.....I have a problem with it personally, but they have a right just as christians or any other legit religion....personally I agree with the writer (and many others)..it is a slap at the American people and the families that lost love ones on 9-11....

 

[LDB]

I wonder how many secretly want to see the ribbon cutting ceremony when it opens be another instance of 9/11 level devastation or the next visitation spot of Timothy McVeigh? Probably a larger percentage than many would think.

 

[chefdennis]

Another take:

We are not an Islamic nation and Sharia law DOES conflict with our constitution

Mosque at 9/11 site is International Muslim trophy

By Dr. Laurie Roth
Thursday, August 5, 2010
Mosque at 9/11 site is International Muslim trophy

The syndromes and denial on this issue are endless! We are ‘Islamaphobic’ and simply intolerant to religious freedom if we don’t support the ‘right’ for folks to build a multi story, massive, Islamic mosque at Ground Zero. We all have mental illness and racist/hate genes to Muslims and their rights. After all, the talking heads on this say it will be multi faith don’t they???


Oh….for a minute I forgot that incredible openness by the folks behind this. I REALLY look forward then to visiting the Christian church and Synagogue, proudly displayed also within this huge structure of religious openness, but of course, that isn’t the plan and never was.

Let me cut past all the rubbish on this. The plan of building the mosque at Ground Zero has nothing at all to do with religious tolerance. It ONLY has to do with Muslims wanting an international trophy, celebrating the successful and vicious attack on evil America. No matter what the Islamic fundamentalists, politically correct media and confused masses say, the truth and money behind this madness is nothing but a betrayal, sell out and national insult to the American people.

It is not ‘Islamaphobia’ for me to say that Muslim radicals, funded and supported by al Qaeda and other Muslim relatives, worldwide, in and out of Mosques, schools and Government structures, murdered US and other world citizens. Why did they do that? They had and they still have one motive……USaphobia, Christianaphobia and Jewaphobia! They want control of Western nations, an international caliphate to return again and the complete destruction of America and Israel or our enslavement.

Along with the mental and moral illness of Islamic fundamentalism here and abroad, we have even worse with New York officials and decision makers who would dare even allow the discussion of building such a traitorous insult as a Muslim mosque at Ground Zero…..all because of political correctness and submission to endless manipulation and name calling from the left and Muslim groups. They wouldn’t dream of being ‘Islamaphobic or ‘intolerant,’ therefore they speed run into Stupidville and complete, moronic denial.

It is time if the masses of Muslims in this country are peace loving and decent, to protest putting this mosque at Ground Zero, period! Open your mouth to sanity and real loyalty to the issues at hand or once again put another stake in the heart of your lying statements of ‘pursuing peace’ and tolerance. It is obvious for even an immoral, bird brain that the only appropriate thing to put at ground zero is a respectful memorial, honoring the heroism, sacrifice and loss of this horrific attack. The last thing our nation needs is to be mocked by the triumphant and arrogant display of the Islamic trophy, built on our dead body residue at Ground Zero.

We are not an Islamic nation and Sharia law DOES conflict with our constitution, Judeo/Christian values and traditions. Those who want to build something SO COMPLETELY inappropriate are acting only as a mirror reflecting the guts of the enemy to our country. They can all line up and kiss my Islamaphobic grits!!!!

 

[dieseldiva]

Not to argue, I have no love lost for the muslum religion, but how far away is far enough!?!? 5 blocks, 10 blocks, across town.....I have a problem with it personally, but they have a right just as christians or any other legit religion....personally I agree with the writer (and many others)..it is a slap at the American people and the families that lost love ones on 9-11....

Just because one has the "right" to do something doesn't mean that they should.

 

[chefdennis]

I totally agree..and this is from the "Religion of Peace"......

 

[greg334]

I'm a bit concern.

This looks like a d*mn lot of religious intolerance.

If you want to uphold this country, the constitution and our way of life, you have no choice but to uphold all the religions and rights of others, no matter how much you disagree with them.

The ignorances of both these authors shines through with stupid statements like the United States of Islam or about seeing other religions represented at this Islamic Cultural center, which by the way is about Islam, not Judaism or Christianity.

How frickn' asinine.

The other ignorant issues I have been reading a lot is the fact that other religions are represented very well around the NEW WTC complex AND no one seems to be talking about that. St. Johns, St Peters, St Nichols (which is being rebuilt with help from the NY port authority and the US government with land given to them by the port authority - talk about a separation issue) all closer than the proposed cultural center. There are two Synagogues within miles of the WTC site, which I don't get why (maybe it has to do with the intolerance the Jews faced during the early and mid part of the 20th century?), I think could be three, four or five IF the leaders of the Jewish faith wanted it to be - but they are not doing a thing to move on expanding.

Should we put more money into the WTC/freedom towers by installing a church and synagogue on-site?

We are a country based on different religions, our ethics, our core beliefs don't come from one or two religions but several religions that have shaped our country, shaped our history and shaped our world. Christianity, like Islam takes from others, Buddhism and other peace based religions, but like Christianity (even today) Islam and Judaism all have the same issues - there are some who see violence as the only way to achieve their goals. It is the follower who believes one way or another that screw it up, like today many don't like the in your face you must accept Jesus as your Saviour thing, which makes people not like Christians and then many Christians scream they are being targeted or they are victims.

I am frickn' amazed that we still as a country can't see the difference between a Buddhist and a Hindi, a Muslim or a Sikh but lump anything different as a rag head or some other derogatory term. We seem not to want to learn, we seem not to want to embrace differences (notice I did not say diversity) to expand our knowledge and stop being viewed as the destroyer of countries.

I say get over it, there are other things to worry about.

If we want to grasp real changes within a closed community we can't act as everything that happened has to be blamed on people who didn't or don't support the few. They will be like other communities who shut out the rest of the area/country and became more or less isolated and cause us more problems overall - Hispanic and Chinese seem to be good examples seeing there is a lot going on in those two camps. Shouldn't you be more concern with the Hispanic approach to the encroachment of our safety by allowing an open border and having crime cartels fund murders here on our soil?

Be concern with the lessons we lost from 9/11, the lives we already forgotten and what we should have done - rebuild as nothing will ever stop us - to prove to the world and to those who want to destroy us that we are not afraid, we won't tolerate destruction and we will waiver.

We are no longer a country that symbolizes freedoms but now fast approaching a country that symbolizes we are victims.

 

[dieseldiva]

They call it "fitna"....

From the article.....

As for those teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals such as New York mayor Michael Bloomberg and much of the media, who are blind to the Islamist agenda in North America, we understand their goodwill.


Unfortunately for us, their stand is based on ignorance and guilt, and they will never in their lives have to face the tyranny of Islamism that targets, kills and maims Muslims worldwide, and is using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies from within.

​

 

[dieseldiva]

The other ignorant issues I have been reading a lot is the fact that other religions are represented very well around the NEW WTC complex AND no one seems to be talking about that. St. Johns, St Peters, St Nichols (which is being rebuilt with help from the NY port authority and the US government with land given to them by the port authority - talk about a separation issue) all closer than the proposed cultural center. There are two Synagogues within miles of the WTC site, which I don't get why (maybe it has to do with the intolerance the Jews faced during the early and mid part of the 20th century?), I think could be three, four or five IF the leaders of the Jewish faith wanted it to be - but they are not doing a thing to move on expanding.

Which one of these other religious groups murdered 3000 of their fellow citizens? It's not as though anyone is saying NO mosques to be built in the entire city as there are already over 30.....just not there.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

That's just it, tho. We were attacked on 9-11-01, and I see this as a continuation of said attack on 9-12-11. What if the Japanese wanted to build a Shinto temple at Pearl Harbor on 12-8-51? I think we'd have told them to shove it... even tho we weren't currently at war with them (like we are radical muslims).

"Hey Abdul! Did you hear they're buidling a mosque where those brave men brought jihad to the Western infidels. What do you think?"

"Sears tower; another mosque?"

"My thoughts exactly!"

 

[LDB]

Posts 10 and 11 correctly summarize the situation.

 

[greg334]

Which one of these other religious groups murdered 3000 of their fellow citizens? It's not as though anyone is saying NO mosques to be built in the entire city as there are already over 30.....just not there.

Oh let's see ... I only found one in Manhattan, and a cultural center that many consider as a Mosque.

The point I am trying to make is what makes three blocks away from the WTC place so special? It isn't where it happened, it isn't where there was a plane hit the ground like in PA, but what?

If we are going to fight the people who caused it, then let's fight them, not the religion they claim to represent.

Throughout history we as humans claimed to be civilized but where?

You ask what other religious groups murdered 3000 of their fellow citizens, well let's take a look ...

Ever hear of the Spanish Inquisition?

The special thing about the Spanish Inquisition is that the Muslims ruled what we called Spain and they allowed the Jew to remain, in protected status. When a Catholic Monarchy was established, they were expelled or killed, forced to convert and then expelled or killed. I think there was over 150k who were expelled but no one knows how many thousands were killed - impaling is a hard way to leave this earth.

How about France's, England's and Russia's efforts to expel the Jews while the killing of a lot of them in the process.

The Edict of Expulsion in England forced thousands out of England.

Russia's efforts under Czar's rule were harsh, Cossacks and other elite military units moved whole villages, sometimes not moving them at all but killing them. This wasn't just Jews but also Catholics who were targeted.

France, well they're France and seem to hate everyone at one time or another.

Germany and Austria has issues between Protestants and Catholics, where there was bloodshed. Catholics who were in control, expelled the Protestants in the early part of the 18th century, and of course that was not without killing a lot of them who were fleeing.

AND let's not forget the English revolution, pitting Catholic against Protestant. I think there were more than 3000 people killed there.

India saw a lot of killing by Christians during the English colonial period because of religion. Some of it is rather gruesome, and some of it stretched into the 20th century.

AND then we have the Balkin war, more specifically Srebrenica massacre. 8000 Muslims were killed by Orthodox Christians, not really something that I would call a needed option for the Serbs but nevertheless, between the Catholics who were killing the Orthodox who were both killing the Muslims and the Muslims who were killing the others, there seems to be a more methodical means of killing used in that region for centuries. By the way speaking of this region, in a little town called Sarajevo, sometime during June 28, 1914 there was a murder and this triggered an event called WW1. The countries who ended up fighting seemed to be siding with each other based on their religious affiliation.

T-hawk, the thing about japan is we are now recognizing their plight during the war. We now have had an official US representative at the ceremonies in Hiroshima which is a form of apology to many Japanese who feel that we were wrong fighting them. It is wrong to go to them and humble ourselves for the destruction of their country they caused.

The other thing is we didn't rebuild the Arizona or other ships, we left them there and built a representative memorial. We didn't dicker about money, what to call the monument or who should be included in settlements from the US government. We didn't allow it to become Hawaii's tragedy but the country's tragedy - Everyone has a share in it, Everyone remembered the lessons learned from it and haven't forgotten yet.

 

[dieseldiva]

I knew you'd be back with long-ago history...can't be undone, just like reparations to blacks for slavery LONG AGO and nothing we can do about it now. This is happening today and we have the opportunity to stop it.

I don't pretend to know nearly enough about this subject but I read what's written from those who do and I think that America is very young in this struggle against radical Islam....maybe too many of us are more naive than we should be.

Read Mark Steyn....

 

[dieseldiva]

If we are going to fight the people who caused it, then let's fight them, not the religion they claim to represent.

That's just it, in this case IMHO, they might be the same.

 

[greg334]

I knew you'd be back with long-ago history...can't be undone, just like reparations to blacks for slavery LONG AGO and nothing we can do about it now. This is happening today and we have the opportunity to stop it.

BUT stop what?

Building something that represents a religion or stopping the killing based on religion?

If you want to stop the latter, it is simple, the entire world has to be involved and they simply are not. France has just now decided to fight, Germany is passive about external fights but uses every means to allow more problems brewing (look at what's going on there) and England is trying to wrong the past by allowing to be walked all over to accommodate 'other' religions.

I don't pretend to know nearly enough about this subject but I read what's written from those who do and I think that America is very young in this struggle against radical Islam....maybe too many of us are more naive than we should be.

I don't know nearly enough either but I am willing to learn. See to me a lot of those who claim to know, are fanning the flames a lot based not on history but more of that to make a name for themselves. While it is true there is a lot wrong with every religion, the point is many are not willing to at least learn the differences.

The US is not young in fighting radical Islam, on the contrary, we are leading, along with Israel, are leading the fight against it (Australia too). France, England, Germany, Poland and Russia are all inexperienced and instead of taking our lead, they have d*mned us for our immigration issues, our human rights issues and other things while doing worst.

Read Mark Steyn....

I have, heard him speak a couple times but he isn't the quintessential expert, he like others are trying to tell us a message and but we have to decide whether we need to fall into a trap or work around these issues for a long term solution.

The point I'm trying to make with all of this is simply that we can't claim one thing and be hypocritcal when it doesn't go as we like it to go. We allowed a lot fo this to happen, we have been afraid of speaking up and it led us down a path of second guessing ourselves. For example when the WTC fell, there was an outcry to rebuild, then it looked like we needed to reconsider rebuilding it, then NYC made the decision that a panel of judges would decide what design will be used then we changed the name because the tenet didn't like Freedom Towers and so on. I think it showed the world, especially those who hate us that we are scrambling to do the simplest thing and got so sidetracked because of the infighting, bickering and hatred towards our own that we can't do the simplest thing.

 

[dieseldiva]

If not young in fighting radical Islam then young and naive in understanding the culture and I see that as dangerous. As I said before, just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean that you should.

I cannot imagine the pain of the survivors....many didn't receive even one piece of their loved ones to bury, this is their burial ground.

With all of our political correctness, I think we've shown a lot of tolerance, probably too much. When do they start to show us something similar?

 

[Turtle]

That's just it, in this case IMHO, they might be the same.

But they're not the same, tho. In spite of the many differences among Christians, Jews, and Muslims, they all share a fundamental belief in God as compassionate and just. As a result, those religious communities have often nurtured people of extraordinary kindness and courageous commitment to justice. But those same religions, all three of them, have also nurtured people of extraordinary brutality and abhorrent injustices.

In contrast to the deep hatred of the extremist, wacko crazies that obviously inspired the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the vast majority of Muslims, just like their Jewish and Christian counterparts, are appalled and sickened by terrorism, and utterly repudiate the mass murder of innocent people.

The problem is, Americans, Christian Americans in particular, don't want to hear that. They prefer to believe that all Muslims are the same as the wacko crazy Muslims. Yet they have no problem in dismissing the small minority of the wacko crazy Christians as not really being a Christian, and will tell you that not all Christians are like that. The simple truth is, not all Muslims are like the wacko crazies fundamentalist Muslims, either.

If all Muslims are like that, and their job is to kill infidels, Americans in particular, why aren't there scores of American infidels killed by Muslims in this country on a daily basis? The answer is self-evident to anyone who isn't prejudiced against all Muslims simply because they are Muslims. The foundation of prejudice is ignorance, and the best way to escape ignorance is to gain as complete a knowledge about the subject as possible. Learning about a subject from a single source, or from several similarly slanted viewpoints, which is what many people do with charged political and religious issues, doesn't count. People who fail to get a more complete understanding of the issues only end up learning how to better entrench their own ignorant prejudices. And that's right where most of America is right now.

I was recently in a Walmart doing some grocery shopping. Also in there was a Muslim husband and wife, she complete with a Burka and everything. People were staring at them, whispering things about them, many loud enough to be heard by all. As I passed them I said, "Hi, how are you?" And they smiled and lit up, eager to interact with someone not hostile to them. Well, he smiled and lit up, couldn't tell much about her, but she sounded like she was smiling. We talked some small talk for a few minutes and then went on about our shopping. They bought groceries and left, and managed to do so without killing anyone. I did the same.

 

[greg334]

If not young in fighting radical Islam then young and naive in understanding the culture and I see that as dangerous. As I said before, just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean that you should.

I think we are a h*ll of a lot more in-tune and understanding of any culture than any one else. And have been for over a century. Without our ablity to be a multilateral culture in the late 19 century, we could not have grown at all. Just look at France, they don't get what an immigrant is or how to treat them. They force somethings on the people while demanding others out of them - pretty screwed up.

I also agree with the rights and doing what's right but again shouldn't we step back and see the bigger picture - I mean the focus is on the building and not the funding, it is on the 'meaning' and not the tolerance.

I cannot imagine the pain of the survivors....many didn't receive even one piece of their loved ones to bury, this is their burial ground.

Actually to many they are the same as the parents who's son went off to fight and never returned home - be it WW1, WW2, Korea or Vietnam. At least they have something they can see and touch, they were compensated while others were not, some think it wasn't right but then again we are still as a country focusing on the wrong things.

With all of our political correctness, I think we've shown a lot of tolerance, probably too much. When do they start to show us something similar?

But it is our political correctness that has caused us to be intolerant. In the past there were a lot of issues but we didn't kill each other because we were different. We had issues about race and religion but when did we as a country try to correct an injustice by making people feel good with words?

They won't show us any respect until we start respecting ourselves. Until we stop fighting about Crosses in the Desert, having people protest funerals and so on.

 

[Pilgrim]

I suppose we can revisit the entire history of civilization and find examples of atrocities committed in the name of religion. But fast forward to the present and we find ourselves being attacked by a religious group whose fundamental beliefs as spelled out in the koran are contrary to our way of life. Their mission is not to live in harmony with other religions and nationalities, but to subjugate them or eliminate anyone who doesn't subscribe to their 12th century beliefs. This is a political movement hiding beneath a veneer of religion that accords them protection that subversive movements wouldn't ordinarily have, especially in the US. If this group was concerned about harmony, it would have never suggested building a mosque in a location that was pelted by debris from the Twin Towers as they fell. The whole point of this proposed structure is to establish a monument to their successful attack and demonstrate control over the very people they previously victimized.

How far away should the mosque's location be? I'm sure there is a spot upon which all parties concerned could agree. A good place to start would be outside the radius of damage and debris that fell from the WTC. It doesn't have to be a specific distance measured in feet or miles, but these things could be negotiated if both parties would be reasonable. It appears that the Imam Rauf and his followers are more concerned with having things THEIR way, as is usually the case with these people. What makes things worse is the liberal politicians like Bloomberg and their followers who are so afraid of offending their sworn enemies who would prefer to see them enslaved or dead.

Religious intolerance toward muslims? How about intolerance of a subversive movement comprised of a group of people who want to bring down our government?