Tolerence or Intolerence....

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I was refering to the remarks that there is no difference between the beheading of Pearl and inadvertant civilian deaths. One is premedetated the other is not and we do our best to avoid it.
Two words (relating to just one instance) for ya here on this one Bunky:

Hiroshima .......

and

Nagasaki ....

"Within the first two to four months of the bombings, the acute effects killed 90,000–166,000 people in Hiroshima and 60,000–80,000 in Nagasaki, with roughly half of the deaths in each city occurring on the first day.

The Hiroshima prefectural health department estimates that, of the people who died on the day of the explosion, 60% died from flash or flame burns, 30% from falling debris and 10% from other causes."
[possibly including several beheadings from flying debris]

"During the following months, large numbers died from the effect of burns, radiation sickness, and other injuries, compounded by illness. In both cities, most of the dead were civilians." - Wikipedia

(despite what some in here may think)
It isn't a case of thinking - it's a case of KNOWING ....

If you prefer to not look, to not observe, and to NOT KNOW .... fine .....

..... just keep suckin' on that national security-state koolaid ...
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
True, there's nothing like a little comedy and humor and Jon Stewart is definitely nothing like comedy or humor.
Well .... apparently 1.45 to 1.6 million viewers seem to think it has some redeeming value, since that's the number that tune in nightly .....

If you personally suffer from an inablity to find any humor whatsoever in any of what is done by Jon Stewart, perhaps you need to look a little bit deeper beyond the humor, to understand the actual message that's being conveyed ....

It seems to me that you - particularly - would be someone who could benefit from it ..... :rolleyes:
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I'll stick with actual funny stuff like Jeff Dunham, Jeff Foxworthy, Red Skelton, George Burns and others who don't try to foist off stupidity as humor. I have no doubt there are more than 1.6 million idiots who watch tv and are easily fooled. Recent election results confirm it.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
As to your video, that traitor cannot be trusted.
Which one - the 'copter gunner, who, with great indifference, is pulling the trigger, gunning down civilian non-combatants, including children ?

Or the other people he's talking to, that are instructing him to go ahead gun down people without actually knowing who they are ?

If you are referring to Bradley Manning, the guy who released the video ...... well .... he certainly can't be trusted to keep secrets about what he considers widespread criminal activity on the part of members of the military or government.

Regardless of the accuracy of the conclusion contained in your comment immediately above, one thing is for sure:

That don't mean that what is shown in the video didn't happen.

With any luck at all we will start executed traitors in this country again.
With any luck at all, we will start to be able to recognize WHO the actual traitors and criminals are ..... (for example: the people in the helicopter, and possibly their superior officers)

People that expose criminal wrongdoing are not traitors .... (except to the criminals :rolleyes:)

I have no respect for malcontent traitors.
Neither do I ...... but I am fully capable of differentiating between a malcontent traitor ...... and someone who would engage in civil disobedience (by breaking a law) ..... to expose instances of rampant criminal activity in the military and government ..... perhaps potentially at the highest levels .....

The context of a "whistle blower" such as this can NEVER be trusted as being totally complete or accurate.
Well, interestingly ...... neither the US government or military (both of which you seem to be a really big fan of) has attempted to deny that the video is, in fact, anything BUT 100% accurate .....

Further, the Department of Navy and the Special Security Office of the Marine Corps Intelligence Department have released the following guidance to troops, respectively:

“personnel should not access the WikiLeaks website to view or download the publicized classified information. Doing so would introduce potentially classified information on unclassified networks. There has been rumor that the information is no longer classified since it resides in the public domain. This is NOT true. Government information technology capabilities should be used to enable our war fighters, promote information sharing in defense of our homeland, and to maximize efficiencies in operations. It should not be used as a means to harm national security through unauthorized disclosure of our information on publicly accessible websites or chat rooms.”​

and

“By willingly accessing the WIKILEAKS website for the purpose of viewing the posted classified material—these actions constitute the unauthorized processing, disclosure, viewing, and downloading of classified information onto an UNAUTHORIZED computer system not approved to store classified information, meaning they have WILLINGLY committed a SECURITY VIOLATION. Not only are these actions illegal, but they provide the justification for local security officials to immediately remove, suspend ‘FOR CAUSE’ all security clearances and accesses. Commanders may press for Article 15 or 32 charges, and USMC personnel could face a financial hardship as civilian and contractor personnel will be placed on ‘Administrative Leave’ pending the outcome of the [criminal] investigation.”​

For any (so-called) crime to actually have taken place, the information would have to be actual classified info - disseminating something that WAS NOT the classified info (but saying it was) would not constitute a crime.

Ergo, if it is a crime, then the info has to be at least a partially accurate representation of the classified info that once resided on government computers .....

Perhaps you can consult your "inside sources" as to when the military and/or government will be releasing additional "context" or a clarification as to which parts of any this (video, leaked documents, etc.) are inaccurate or in error .... :rolleyes:
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I'll stick with actual funny stuff like Jeff Dunham, Jeff Foxworthy, Red Skelton, George Burns and others who don't try to foist off stupidity as humor.
If you actually want to understand what stupidity really is, then just go here:

Real Stupidity
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I totally agree ...... and this is from the "Religion of Peace"......
Yes, clearly ..... the act of constructing a building to house a community center (which, yes, will contain a mosque, among other things) ..... to be used by anyone of any faith ..... this is clearly an overt hostile act ..... in fact, I think it is tantamount to an act of war ....

How dare they ?

Seriously, Dennis - thanks for the laugh ..... :D
 

nightshift

Expert Expediter
This has been a very interesting thread. It went in complete circles getting away from the original subject and exploded into an argument that covered religion, politics and ROE during wartime. One thought I'd like to throw out about the original subject is that there are already several Mosque's on the island and there is a very small population of Muslims in lower Manhattan. With that being said most that will use this facility will have to travel many miles past other Mosque's fighting Manhattan traffic or using the subway to get to this nice new Mosque. Why would they want to do this? The Islamic faith is big on symbolism, what better symbol of their successful attack on the infidels then to have a Mosque so close to ground zero. What better date to have the ground breaking then the day after the 11th anniversary. Are they willing to change the date to prove that this is not a trophy for them? I have yet to hear anyone bring this up so I don't know. They have already rejected the offer to move the Mosque to another site, one that might actually be more convenient to the ones that will use it. Could it just be that they are being stubborn, possibly, but actions speak louder then words and their actions to date are very intolerant of the wishes of the people of NYC and families of the victims of 9-11. This intolerance is just exactly what prevents different cultures and races from being able to come together, to accept each others religions and ethnic differences. Are Christians guilt free on this subject, not a chance, Christians are just as guilty of the same attitudes, but in this country now Christians are becoming the second class citizen so we are more likely to just flat tell them no and to disapprove and request they would have to build in an area that would cause religious tension. With the Islamic faith, we don't want to offend, so instead of just approving it and staying quiet and letting it happen our politicians will make a big deal out of the supposed intolerance we are showing to the Islamic faith. Who is actually being intolerant and to whom? Why is it such an issue to build it where it will probably be inconvenient to use by the Muslim community?

One last thing, and this is not to start another argument with Turtle, I'm really surprised that Military bases have changed as much as some are claiming here. I've only been away from the Military for about 9 years. When I was in we used our Chaplains whenever we needed to send someone to a compassionate ear, we didn't have a supply of bartenders so we used the Chaplains, they were the only compassionate people we could find. All the churches, or should I say, religious buildings were none denominational, they held services for as many faiths as they could, I even remember hearing about services for those of the Islamic faith. Our Military is directed more from political ideals then religious ideals, if it were religious ideals our Military would fall apart, they are a diverse group, not just a Christian organization, and our leaders are definitely not just Christian.

Enough said, enjoy tearing me apart now.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Rlent,
The incident with the 'copter should be openly investigated and everyone involved who are guilty should be punished but other information that has little to do with the incident should not have been released.

The issue, outside of this incident and a few others like it, is who is to determine what information the enemy can use in their operation against the civilians and the allied forces on the ground there. I feel that this was not the place for Wikileaks or the US solider to make that determination and in the case of the US solider, the 'copter thing is one thing but the other information is treason and should be treated as such. If we are to believe nothing can come to it with the amount of info handed over to a third party who is trying to undermine our country, then we shouldn't believe our nation will ever be at risk by another group and should pull out of all the areas of the world with due expedience.
 

dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
Back to the original subject....no one says it quite like Krauthammer.......

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[SIZE=+2]Sacrilege at Ground Zero[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, August 13, 2010; A19
[/SIZE]

A place is made sacred by a widespread belief that it was visited by the miraculous or the transcendent (Lourdes, the Temple Mount), by the presence there once of great nobility and sacrifice (Gettysburg), or by the blood of martyrs and the indescribable suffering of the innocent (Auschwitz).

When we speak of Ground Zero as hallowed ground, what we mean is that it belongs to those who suffered and died there -- and that such ownership obliges us, the living, to preserve the dignity and memory of the place, never allowing it to be forgotten, trivialized or misappropriated.

That's why Disney's 1993 proposal to build an American history theme park near Manassas Battlefield was defeated by a broad coalition that feared vulgarization of the Civil War (and that was wiser than me; at the time I obtusely saw little harm in the venture). It's why the commercial viewing tower built right on the border of Gettysburg was taken down by the Park Service. It's why, while no one objects to Japanese cultural centers, the idea of putting one up at Pearl Harbor would be offensive.

And why Pope John Paul II ordered the Carmelite nuns to leave the convent they had established at Auschwitz. He was in no way devaluing their heartfelt mission to pray for the souls of the dead. He was teaching them a lesson in respect: This is not your place; it belongs to others. However pure your voice, better to let silence reign.

Even New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who denounced opponents of the proposed 15-story mosque and Islamic center near Ground Zero as tramplers on religious freedom, asked the mosque organizers "to show some special sensitivity to the situation." Yet, as columnist Rich Lowry pointedly noted, the government has no business telling churches how to conduct their business, shape their message or show "special sensitivity" to anyone about anything. Bloomberg was thereby inadvertently conceding the claim of those he excoriates for opposing the mosque, namely that Ground Zero is indeed unlike any other place and therefore unique criteria govern what can be done there.

Bloomberg's implication is clear: If the proposed mosque were controlled by "insensitive" Islamist radicals either excusing or celebrating 9/11, he would not support its construction.
But then, why not? By the mayor's own expansive view of religious freedom, by what right do we dictate the message of any mosque? Moreover, as a practical matter, there's no guarantee that this couldn't happen in the future. Religious institutions in this country are autonomous. Who is to say that the mosque won't one day hire an Anwar al-Aulaqi -- spiritual mentor to the Fort Hood shooter and the Christmas Day bomber, and onetime imam at the Virginia mosque attended by two of the 9/11 terrorists?

An Aulaqi preaching in Virginia is a security problem. An Aulaqi preaching at Ground Zero is a sacrilege. Or would the mayor then step in -- violating the same First Amendment he grandiosely pretends to protect from mosque opponents -- and exercise a veto over the mosque's clergy?

Location matters. Especially this location. Ground Zero is the site of the greatest mass murder in American history -- perpetrated by Muslims of a particular Islamist orthodoxy in whose cause they died and in whose name they killed.

Of course that strain represents only a minority of Muslims. Islam is no more intrinsically Islamist than present-day Germany is Nazi -- yet despite contemporary Germany's innocence, no German of goodwill would even think of proposing a German cultural center at, say, Treblinka.

Which makes you wonder about the goodwill behind Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf's proposal. This is a man who has called U.S. policy "an accessory to the crime" of 9/11 and, when recently asked whether Hamas is a terrorist organization, replied, "I'm not a politician. . . . The issue of terrorism is a very complex question."

America is a free country where you can build whatever you want -- but not anywhere. That's why we have zoning laws. No liquor store near a school, no strip malls where they offend local sensibilities, and, if your house doesn't meet community architectural codes, you cannot build at all.

These restrictions are for reasons of aesthetics. Others are for more profound reasons of common decency and respect for the sacred. No commercial tower over Gettysburg, no convent at Auschwitz -- and no mosque at Ground Zero.
Build it anywhere but there.

The governor of New York offered to help find land to build the mosque elsewhere. A mosque really seeking to build bridges, Rauf's ostensible hope for the structure, would accept the offer.
[email protected]











© 2010 The Washington Post Company​


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LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I don't have to go anywhere to understand what stupidity is. I can just read what some posters write right here to understand it fully.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Leo, they are a "Peaceful" group that just want a place to worship.... oh and "swim" too, I heard they will have swimming pool...:D

Wonder how "understanding and tolerant" the devoloper, iman and the islamic group that want to build this mosque will be to this new enterprise opening next door to thier "cultural center"....think they will be willing to "build that bridge"....:D

Journalist plans mosque-adjacent gay bar

August 10, 2010 12:00PM
Journalist plans mosque-adjacent gay bar | The Real Deal | New York Real Estate News

Greg Gutfeld Journalist and political satirist Greg Gutfeld has announced plans to open an Islamic-friendly gay bar in a commercial space adjacent to the so-called "Ground Zero mosque," which is currently in its planning stages, according to Mediaite. Gutfeld, who hosts the "Red Eye" program on Fox News, said that the bar is aimed at "break[ing] down barriers and reduc[ing] deadly homophobia in the Islamic world." In a blog post, Gutfeld implied that "understanding and tolerance" have allowed the mosque plans to go forward -- and that the Islamic community should show the same spirit to the gay community. "I hope that the mosque owners will be as open to the bar as I am to the new mosque," Gutfeld said. "After all, the belief driving them to open up their center near Ground Zero is no different than mine." The planned Lower Manhattan mosque recently overcame a major hurdle to construction when the Landmarks Preservation Commission ruled that its site was not eligible for historic status.

I heard on the radio the other day that they only thing on their menu was Pork BBQ......
 
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witness23

Veteran Expediter
This has been a very interesting thread. It went in complete circles getting away from the original subject and exploded into an argument that covered religion, politics and ROE during wartime. One thought I'd like to throw out about the original subject is that there are already several Mosque's on the island and there is a very small population of Muslims in lower Manhattan. With that being said most that will use this facility will have to travel many miles past other Mosque's fighting Manhattan traffic or using the subway to get to this nice new Mosque. Why would they want to do this? The Islamic faith is big on symbolism, what better symbol of their successful attack on the infidels then to have a Mosque so close to ground zero. What better date to have the ground breaking then the day after the 11th anniversary. Are they willing to change the date to prove that this is not a trophy for them? I have yet to hear anyone bring this up so I don't know. They have already rejected the offer to move the Mosque to another site, one that might actually be more convenient to the ones that will use it. Could it just be that they are being stubborn, possibly, but actions speak louder then words and their actions to date are very intolerant of the wishes of the people of NYC and families of the victims of 9-11. This intolerance is just exactly what prevents different cultures and races from being able to come together, to accept each others religions and ethnic differences. Are Christians guilt free on this subject, not a chance, Christians are just as guilty of the same attitudes, but in this country now Christians are becoming the second class citizen so we are more likely to just flat tell them no and to disapprove and request they would have to build in an area that would cause religious tension. With the Islamic faith, we don't want to offend, so instead of just approving it and staying quiet and letting it happen our politicians will make a big deal out of the supposed intolerance we are showing to the Islamic faith. Who is actually being intolerant and to whom? Why is it such an issue to build it where it will probably be inconvenient to use by the Muslim community?

One last thing, and this is not to start another argument with Turtle, I'm really surprised that Military bases have changed as much as some are claiming here. I've only been away from the Military for about 9 years. When I was in we used our Chaplains whenever we needed to send someone to a compassionate ear, we didn't have a supply of bartenders so we used the Chaplains, they were the only compassionate people we could find. All the churches, or should I say, religious buildings were none denominational, they held services for as many faiths as they could, I even remember hearing about services for those of the Islamic faith. Our Military is directed more from political ideals then religious ideals, if it were religious ideals our Military would fall apart, they are a diverse group, not just a Christian organization, and our leaders are definitely not just Christian.

Enough said, enjoy tearing me apart now.

I thought of this video when reading your post.

http://thedailyshow.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/tds/videos/season_15/15100/ds_15100_03_16x9.jpg
 
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