The Impact Of The Big Three On Me

[greg334]

I agree that cars don’t appear to break down, but I can say my brother-in-law makes six digits working on cars and does not seem to have a lot of time to even talk. There are still a lot of cars dropped off at his shop.

I think that .... ok .... maybe that they are more dependable to a point, but I would rather have 1950’s technology and simplicity than to pay for one tune up for a new car. I drove a 1950 Packard as a daily driver for five years, outside of the little rust, this car was plucked off a PA farm and had new brakes put on all around, battery installed and driven. Five years I put up with my neighbor criticizing me for having the car, he worked for Chrysler in charge of their purchasing department and always had a new car in the driveway. He complained and made fun of it until one winter day when the temp was below zero – whose car started? The new Chrysler with maybe 200 miles on it or the beat up 1950 Packard – the Packard of course and it happened several times.

 

[cheri1122]

I think the toppling of the Big Three automakers began when they listened to the principles for a successful business, making a first-quality product, as devised & presented by Edward Deming, but were too smugly arrogant to hear. They didn't see how a man who had never built an automobile could tell them anything, so they condescendingly told him to take his ideas to the Japanese. (At that time, "made in Japan" meant cheap in price, & even cheaper in quality). I've often wondered if the execs managed to restrain their
laughter until Deming left the room...He took his ideas to Japan, where they were put into practice by the automotive executives, and who's laughing now?
Had they been able to adnit that they didn't know everything already, they would have learned how to build the best quality automobiles, by demanding the best quality from every supplier, instead of choosing the lowest bidder. They would have considered suppliers & employees as partners, with a common goal, instead of subordinates to be commanded to produce as quickly & cheaply as humanly possible. They would have learned a lot more, if they had asked instead: "What obstacles are in the way of your producing top quality?" - and then set about eliminating the obstacles. They would have also wanted to ask the customers how the product could be improved, because who would know better? And last, they would never consider the process of improvement to be finished.
But they obviously already knew how to build automobiles, & sell them, too. Buy low, sell high, & don't worry about competition, because there isn't any. As for the workers, as long as they show up every day (or get fired), on time (or get fired), work the hours they're paid for (or get fired), what more could be expected of them? The time clocks & supervisors watching them every minute are all the motivation they require, and the paycheck is all the reward they desire.
Right?
Since their job was primarily a constant fight with everyone, (unions, workers, suppliers, customers, IRS agents), they deserved to earn 400 times as much as the average worker.
Right?
They are building better quality now, but it may be too little, too late. And they don't seem able to change the "us vs them" relationships with employees, though they have done better with suppliers. The one area in which they cannot progress in the right direction, is "executive compensation" - because the insane levels have become a standard in nearly every large corporation. If they were able to turn their thinking entirely upside down, to stop doing things the way they've always been done - well, then, they would have been able to hear what Edward Deming told them a long time ago.

 

[greg334]

OMG Cheri1122 someone else knows who Edward Deming is, WOW. Where did you hear about Deming?

I have to say first all the auto companies - even the Japanese now - are not using the Deming’s14 points or his simple formula, which I may add goes along with Gilbreths' time studies and organizational psychology to build a really efficient company.

The Japanese have slipped in their quality control standards, mainly because of the fact we now have 'strict' QA standards that are lower than their garbage collection standards, so they follow ours.

 

[Refer Hauler]

Due to less than pleasant experiences on a U.A.W controlled dock, I don't haul U.A.W auto freight or buy a U.A.W manufactured light vehicle.

Go to Toyota,Nissan or Honda and the difference is dramatic.

This is not an attack on the United Auto Workers, but there is an attitude in these organizations that is not found in many other industries

Firm beleiver in "What goes around comes around".

 

[simon says]

Thank you very much... For every story about drunks on the job, bad attitude fork lift drivers, etc... the bottom line is that the fat cats walk off with the wheat, and the American worker gets the chaff (er, shaft). Some of the expeditors cannot see the wood for the trees!
P.S. I buy the car that works best for me- just got out of a Mazda 6 to a Hyyndai Santa Fe. Lots o' bang for the buck. (The Mazda was o.k., but had a lot of Ford styling: Mazda- better when Ford had hands off...)

 

[Moot]

The corner Standard station is now owned by British Petroleum. They have no tow truck because they have no garage or mechanic. You can buy a slurpee and some Excederine though.

A somewhat dated but still poignant view of GM and the UAW as seen through the eyes of an assembly line worker is RIVETHEAD, by Ben Harper. It's a quick read, but very insightful. Makes me appreciate being out on the open road verses inside an office or factory.

 

[greg334]

Moot
RIVETHEAD is definitely outdated, but I do agree with you about appreciating the outside world after reading it. The book, the author and even Michael Moore for that matter come from a different time, a time where the UAW and the auto company still meant a life time (sort of) job and slobs like Michael Moore could get a job there because of their high school education. Now to get a job there you have to have a college degree (no lie, I applied and was rejected because of this issue) but the entitlement mentality is still really strong and the lack of accountability is still a major problem.

As for blaming UAW for the entire problem with the industry, that’s wrong – the company is still in control. The company controls the Quality, the product design and even the manufacturing process. They also control the biggest problem I see; the distribution chain for their product – the dealer system. I think that beside to having a d**n thing to sell (look at the styling of the US manufacturers – all TWO of them – they seem to copy Mercedes) the dealers just plain S**K, not one I have met I trust and have been lied to too many times.

I solidly believe that the UAW's days are past and the only reason they still exist is to make money for their leadership.

 

[cheri1122]

The unions are also blamed when people see workers in the bar while on the clock, and that's wrong, too. It's the company that sets production standards, using time/motion experts to determine what constitutes an acceptable day's work. The standard is difficult, if not impossible, to achieve for new workers, and even experienced workers, if problems occur. But for an experienced worker, who has done the same job for 20 years, encountering every problem & solution hundreds of times - it can often be done in half the usual time. Why, then, doesn't he go beyond the standard? Even if he'd like to, the standard would be raised, and then it would no longer be achievable most of the time.
When I worked in a union shop, the system drove me nuts, but it wasn't the union's fault. Nor were they to blame for the lazy slackers getting away with sleeping, hiding, etc. Everyone knew who the slackers were, (and maybe it's just coincidence, but they were most of the biggest guys in the place!) but the problem required a supervisor to file a complaint, which they would not do. It was obvious that the supervisors feared finding their tires slashed, or worse, if they caused trouble for the wrong guys.
The UAW & Teamsters seem intent on proving that "power corrupts", but in a system where management has an adversarial & dictatorial approach, unions are absolutely necessary. The solution lies in changing the management/employee dynamic to cooperation towards a common goal, and management setting a realistic standard for compensation, theirs included.
PS Greg, I am a reader, & I know so much useless trivia that sometimes I think my brain is full, & that's why I can't remember things I need to - like usernames, passwords, which interstate (& in which direction!) I'm currently on, etc, etc, lol.

 

[suptrucker2202]

I DONT REPLY AS OFTEN AS I SHOULD BUT IF YOU HAUL FREIGHT FOR (NLM) THEN YOU NEED TO THANK THE (UAW) FOR YOUR WAGES BECAUSE THEY AND THE WORKERS FOR THE BIG THREE, NEGOTIATE HOW MUCH IS SPENT ON GETTING THE PRODUCT DELIVERED TO THE PLANTS THAT YOU ALL DELIVER TO DAILY.
:'(

 

[greg334]

>I DONT REPLY AS OFTEN AS I SHOULD BUT IF YOU HAUL FREIGHT
>FOR (NLM) THEN YOU NEED TO THANK THE (UAW) FOR YOUR WAGES
>BECAUSE THEY AND THE WORKERS FOR THE BIG THREE, NEGOTIATE
>HOW MUCH IS SPENT ON GETTING THE PRODUCT DELIVERED TO THE
>PLANTS THAT YOU ALL DELIVER TO DAILY.

Nope Don't agree, I thank the company for the need, the stock holders who invest in the company and the customer of the company for buying the product and keeping us running, not the workers of the company. Why would the UAW have anything to do with the pricing? from my visit with GM a couple months ago there is a grop of people in ties who actually set what they want to pay to get something shipped.

 

[bryan]

HI
Less than ten years ago GM and Ford were reporting records sales and record profits. That all changed when the Republicans took over.You can bash Clinton all you want.The US had no debt, normal relations with our neighbors and the auto makers couldn't get the parts to the plants quick enough.There use to be 14 vans delivering to Oshawa Truck dock D every Sunday night at 10:30.Thats 14 vans to one dock at a plant that had 8 van docks and that didn't include the two car plants at the same facility that had 28 docks.Their was always more freight than there was trucks.
Of course the quality of the vehicles made during those years was sub-standard.The parts suppliers were working 24/7 at full production and if somebody quit or a machine broke that really put their shipments behind.And the employee that quit could just walk across the street and get another job.The unemployment rate was so low that McDonalds and Wal-Mart started a hire the elderly campaign.Now 100 people are applying for 20 Wal-Mart jobs.
I'd much rather have the money to buy a new car every year that was sub-standard than be broke and have a car that never breaks down.Slow back then meant you only got one load per truck a day.If you like this kind of work and want to succeed then I suggest you support the US companies.There is an old saying "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" Oh yea some of GM and Ford's problems started right after they donated $5 million to NYC police and Fire Depts after 911.
If your wondering what its going to be like without GM and Ford just ask some one who was in this business during the Dayton Brake Strike in 1996.I had just started in the business 2 months before so I only got a little taste of it.Straing how one plant could make world news.We couldn't even get a load for the flat bed trucks at the height of construction season.All those layed off milk run trucks had to do something to stay afloat.And yes they were not above loading a 20,000 lb coil into a box truck with no tie downs or cutting the rates in half to do it.
You can say and have any opinion you want its a free country but don't turn a blind eye just because our press felt that Clintons love life was more important to the American people than the Taliban destroying the Buddas.Before 911 most of us had never even heard of the Taliban but we all knew about OJ's bloody glove.

 

[dhalltoyo]

We have always had debt no matter who is in office.

The debt created during the Clinton years was the result of an over inflated stock market. Stocks were trading at unrealistic rates! Everybody was getting fat and the credit card debt was at an all time high. Nobody heeded the warnings of sensible economic advisers. Of course, anyone with internet access and a calculator could have seen the hand writing on the wall.

The Clinton years created the deflation (REALITY CHECK) in which we now find ourselves. And yes, I do find his sexual antics most vulgar and repulsive. And no, I won't overlook his lack of character just so my wallet is a little fatter. Once you back up on standards it is a downhill slide into the gutter. Take a look around at the sexual perverts, porno shops on every street corner and the moral decay that was ushered in with the advent of the internet. Thanks Mr. Big Al Gore for bringing us the internet. Not! Big Al couldn't even carry his home state during an election. He didn't invent the internet either.

Who wants to drive a sub standard anything just so you can drive something? Somehow the logic escapes me. Especially when there is no need to drive any poorly made vehicle. We have this concept that has worked quite well for over two hundred years. It is called a FREE MARKET ECONOMY. Competition promotes quality. My dad is a retired GM engineer and he stood in auditorium when the cover was pulled off a car and the Cheif Engineer said, "Gentleman, this is the level of quality we are going to produce." The car was a Toyota Camry.

Guess what? GM's quality has improved every year since that point in time. I salute their willingness to operate in a FREE MARKET ECONOMY. Do I think they can do better? Sure! This is America. The American spirit is alive and well. I hope they build the very best cargo van in the world. Duramax engines are a step in the right direction. Oh, by the way...that is a joint venture with Isuzu.

We sell Buicks in Asia and Hummers too! That's called FREE TRADE. Competition, not subsidies or government intervention, is what improves quality.

 

[RichM]

Today I drove my 2005 Chevy Malibu about 400 miles round trip from my home to Tallahassee FL to renew the trucks IRP for 2006. Per the built in menu I did 35.4 MPG with an average speed of 68 MPH. Not too shabby plus the car IMHO is as good as a Camary or Honda and at least $3-4 K cheaper..

 

[dhalltoyo]

Great!

Mileage has not really been an issue with me. I had a 66 Chevy Belair with a 283 V-8 that got 28 on the highway.

You describe the basis of the issue in one simple word..."cheaper"

GM only stands behing the engine and transmission (i.e. powertrain) for 3 years or 36,000 miles. Most people finance a car for 5 years. You experience a major compenent failure you get a huge repair bill and you still are making a monthly payment on the original purchase.

Toyota will stand behing its engine and transmission for 5 years or 60,000 miles.

Here is another tidbit for you. When GM was struggling to meet its fleet mileage requirements they reached out to Toyota for a joint venture to get a high mileage car into their fleet. The Geo Prism (A Toyota Corolla) was built at NUMMI Manufacturing in Calif. Both Corollas and Geos came out of that plant. Toyota warranted their Corolla for 5 years/60,000 miles, but GM would only warrant the Geo for 3years/36,000 miles. WHY?

Because if other GM vehicle buyers got wind of a 5year/60,000 mile warranty on a GM product they would have forced GM to apply the better warranty across the board to all of its cars in their lineup. That would have bankrupt GM in 1992.

 

[RichM]

I can buy an extended warranty at any time before the factory warranty runs out for $1100,covers everything for 5 years..
I also have a 1997 Ford Escort with 81,000 on it,nothing has failed other then my own failure to replace a thermostat which created other problems.
I don't need to buy cheap,I buy value..

 

[dhalltoyo]

No one should ever be made to feel as though they need an extended warranty.

I worked for an auto group that sold Pontiac, Toyota and Mitsubishi. The F&I managers at Toyota and Mitsubishi couldn't give away an extended warranty, but the Pontiac buyers bought one nine times out of ten. It was like, "Hey, where do I sign?" There was no selling involved with the Pontiac customers. They couldn't wait to sign for an extended warranty.

Sure, you will get a good one every so often, but that is the exception that proves the rule.

As I said before, the quality of GM, Ford and Chrysler has markedly improved. Why? Because they ain't the only game in town anymore. Same business concept goes for the telephone companies, computer companies, etc. The consumer can choose to go elsewhere. Interesting how Camry has been the number one selling sedan yet, as you indicated, it costs more than an Impala. When value exceeds the price, a customer will buy everytime! That is why a liitle known company who introduced its first little pickup truck in 1964 will become the largest car company in the world this year.

 

[highway star]

Bryan, no debt during the Bubba years? You must have heard that from that female, liberal, wack-job you listen to on the radio. Actually, you're confusing debt with budget deficit. We have had debt for many decades and will for many to come. Numbers can be easily juggled and that is how the Stain Maker came up with a balanced budget.

BTW, thanks for the directions, right on the money.

Rich, I have'nt owned a personal vehicle since I got into expediting. I can't justify the expense for as often as I am home. But, my last two were a '94 Monte Carlo and a '96 Tahoe. Absolutly loved them both. I went from the Monte to the Tahoe because I needed to tow, otherwise I would have kept it for a very long time. That V-6 RIPPED! I had only minor warranty issues on both.

 

[RichM]

Highway Star: Wait till a 90 degree Friday night and take a ride on Van below 8 mile. You will see how to get your MoJo working..LOL

 

[greg334]

>Highway Star: Wait till a 90 degree Friday night and take a
>ride on Van below 8 mile. You will see how to get your
>MoJo working..LOL

GM and Fords problem starting after 9/11? Give me a break!

Their problems started in the 70’s and they haven’t yet got a clue. I read a really interesting article by Bill Ford about how he is following old man Ford’s philosophy, NOT! I give him credit to try to pull this off, but really – decentralized, Just-in-time manufacturing methods don’t work with simple and strictly controlled centralized, ultra-resource utilization that was the hallmark of Henry Ford.

Also GM needs to shed the Sloan management system; it simply speaks of the entire culture and the inability to adapt to the needs to stay competitive. I do agree that the quality has improved, but many Japanese companies still have a lot over GM. One thing I was impressed with Toyota when I was last there a couple days ago was the transfer presses and how they were running, smooth. This I did not see at the GM plants I went to – at a couple plants I worked at 8 years ago and recently visited, I see the same machines in the line and they were noisy, dirty and moved the earth.

RichM

I assume that you have been there and enjoyed the scenery? I would say that it move up to 9 mile, just above where Marshal Mathers grew up – funny how a star causes such great changes. Thriving area!

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Just a quickie... I had a '62 Fairlane that got 18mpg. Small engine, but a lot of kick! That engine compartment had so much room in it, a small kid could stand up inside. Maybe not... but there was a ton of room to work on it. Then they started "improving" things. This environmental gadget, that computer do-dad. I understand some improve safety, while others just cost money. But where is the simplicity anymore? I wouldn't be caught dead trying to fix something on our minivan. Even my '79 Mazda RX-7 was a piece of cake to work on. I think the companies did what they meant to... ppl can't work on their own cars, so they buy new ones more often.

This is a helluva thread, btw.