The Global Warming Hoax.

paullud

Veteran Expediter
The echo chamber speaks!

But about that 400ppm CO2 in the atmosphere problem? Could it be from the humane society? Cat farts? Ya know, with all these cat videos on the internet... They have bodily functions too. Just saying. :)

You're talking about a single month which over the span of history is nothing. Notice any patterns over the last 400k years?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

1404266997752.jpg

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aristotle

Veteran Expediter
I don't think anybody disputes your numbers. We just don't think it is man causing it.

Agreed. How could any sensible person think humankind is responsible for global changes in weather or climate? Our planet Earth is believed to be a little more than 4 billion years old. During this almost unfathomable length of time, Earth has undergone countless dramatic shifts in weather and climate. Man is truly a newcomer to Earth as measured in geologic time.

If Earth's total time of existence were compressed into a single 24 hour day, all of human existence would still not equal one full minute of the first hour of that very first day. We just got here!

Find the fraction that represents the dawn of the Industrial Revolution some 250 years ago divided into a planet more than 4 billion years old. It would be a value so infinitesimally small as to be expressed in scientific notation using a negative exponent.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Agreed. How could any sensible person think humankind is responsible for global changes in weather or climate?
First by getting their science information from places other than political Blogs.

Our planet Earth is believed to be a little more than 4 billion years old.
Yep. 4.54 ± 0.05 billion, actually.

During this almost unfathomable length of time, Earth has undergone countless dramatic shifts in weather and climate. Man is truly a newcomer to Earth as measured in geologic time.
That doesn't mean we can't influence things on a large scale in a short time.

If Earth's total time of existence were compressed into a single 24 hour day, all of human existence would still not equal one full minute of the first hour of that very first day. We just got here!
It wouldn't even equal a second on a 24 hour scale. On the scale of one year, the Cosmic Calendar, anatomically modern humans have only been here for 8 seconds. On a 24 hour scale, we've been here 0.533 seconds. Blink.

Find the fraction that represents the dawn of the Industrial Revolution some 250 years ago divided into a planet more than 4 billion years old. It would be a value so infinitesimally small as to be expressed in scientific notation using a negative exponent.
How much time would it take to detonate 30,000 nuclear bombs and obliterate all human life, and most animal life, on the planet? Clearly, how long we've been here doesn't necessarily translate into how much damage we can do.

The question is, just how much influence can we have on the global climate? Not how much someone thinks, or reasons, or believes, but how much it actually is. The answer is, no one knows.

There is no "theory of climate change" to reject or argue against. There are dozens of different hypotheses, and people advancing political action switch what they call that theory according to what argument they want to make. To deconstruct this:

(1) Human activity has raised the level of CO2, methane and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere beyond what it would otherwise be. [Uncontroversial]

(2) Mean global temperatures have increased over the 20th century. [mostly accepted]

(3) Human activity has contributed to some degree to that increase. [mostly accepted]

(4) Human activity is the primary cause of temperature increase over the 20th century. [unproven, speculative]

(5) Human activity will result in temperature increases in the 21st century that are larger than those experienced in the 20th century and larger than would have happened in the absence of human activity. [unproven, speculative]

(6) Temperature increase in the 21st century will have devastating consequences for humans. [highly speculative, controversial]

(7) Government intervention now can reduce temperature increases in the 21st century significantly. [highly speculative, utterly implausible]

So, the only thing that scientists agree on are (1-3). The rest is unproven, speculative, and often implausible. But without (4-7), observations (1-3) simply aren't worth teaching in school or using as political tactics. But activists and politicians promoting government action or inaction like to pretend that agreement on (1-3) implies agreement on (4-7).

What we have now is liberals in particular abusing science for political purposes. They like to pick some half-аssed scientific result that fits their agenda, draw completely unsubstantiated conclusions based on assumptions and junk science, try to use it to get people riled up to vote for them or transfer billions into the coffers of their corporate buddies (oh, yes, liberals have corporate buddies), and accuse anybody who disagrees with their political agenda as "unscientific". Conservatives aren't much better, because many of them think the Bible is a science book and will deny actual science including empirical data if it disagrees with their beliefs or political agendas.

Like most scientists who are searching for the truth, whatever that may be, I agree with what is actually the agreed upon theory of climate change, namely points (1-3). But that's all science supports right now, and the rest is speculation and politics.

That 400ppm CO2 in the atmosphere problem? Nobody knows.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
What are you doing to change it? What are you doing to improve the environment? Obama/the government is doing little positive and in many cases is doing more damage than anything.

There is also the little problem that there is more to the environment than the C02 problem, IF it is a problem, and the temps. Destroying habitat for wind generators and solar farms harms more than it helps. Damming rivers for "renewable energy" destroys entire eco-systems, again, more damage than gain.

There is NO such thing as totally "green" energy. Every form of energy production has a negative environmental impact. The trick is to limit them.

All that is being done now is running around willy nilly, trying to push one belief or another, mainly for political control of the economy, and telling what ever fibs are needed to push the agenda.

I did not make something clear, that "you" is generic, not aimed at anyone in particular. ALL environmental problems are caused by the person staring back at you from your mirror.

You might not be able to control the "big" stuff, but you can control, and improve, your back yard. Until you are doing all you can in your own yard, pointing fingers is a waste of time.

It is my contention that the majority of the "greenies" that run around yelling this and pointing at that, do little or nothing to improve their own yards, let alone the globe.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yeah if only it would stay at 400ppm and not keep rising.

The problem of course is the trend line. It's rising very quickly.
You keep saying it's a problem. Do you think if you say it enough then people will believe it's a problem? Have people told you enough times that it's a problem so now you believe it's a problem? Why is it a problem? Points (1-3) and (4-7) above say you don't know why or even if it's a problem.
 

WanderngFool

Active Expediter
You keep saying it's a problem. Do you think if you say it enough then people will believe it's a problem? Have people told you enough times that it's a problem so now you believe it's a problem? Why is it a problem? Points (1-3) and (4-7) above say you don't know why or even if it's a problem.

If it's not a problem, then at what point does it become a problem? Can the level rise to 1000ppm and not be a problem? 10000000ppm and not be a problem?

At some point I think it will be a problem. Do we at least agree on that?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
If it's not a problem, then at what point does it become a problem?
I dunno. I didn't say it wasn't a problem.

Can the level rise to 1000ppm and not be a problem? 10000000ppm and not be a problem?

At some point I think it will be a problem. Do we at least agree on that?
Before we can agree on that, we need to agree on what constitutes a problem. The last time there was this much carbon dioxide in the Earth's atmosphere, modern humans didn't exist. Megatoothed sharks prowled the oceans, the world's seas were 100 feet higher than they are today, and the global average surface temperature was up to 11°F warmer than it is now. Yet here we are at 400ppm, the global temp is hanging tuff, the seas aren't 100 feet higher and MegaTooth isn't roaming the Atlantic. Where's the problem? It doesn't look like 400 ppm is a problem. It's supposed to be, it was predicted to be, people say it is. But it isn't.

Sure, at some point the CO2 level will start causing problems. But what's that point? Nobody knows. I'm betting 450 ppm will be a problem. And after that 500 ppm will become a problem, too.

I'm also betting that the Earth will get along just fine, with us or without us.
 

WanderngFool

Active Expediter
I dunno. I didn't say it wasn't a problem.


Before we can agree on that, we need to agree on what constitutes a problem. The last time there was this much carbon dioxide in the Earth's atmosphere, modern humans didn't exist. Megatoothed sharks prowled the oceans, the world's seas were 100 feet higher than they are today, and the global average surface temperature was up to 11°F warmer than it is now. Yet here we are at 400ppm, the global temp is hanging tuff, the seas aren't 100 feet higher and MegaTooth isn't roaming the Atlantic. Where's the problem? It doesn't look like 400 ppm is a problem. It's supposed to be, it was predicted to be, people say it is. But it isn't.

Sure, at some point the CO2 level will start causing problems. But what's that point? Nobody knows. I'm betting 450 ppm will be a problem. And after that 500 ppm will become a problem, too.

I'm also betting that the Earth will get along just fine, with us or without us.

But why should the question be about whether the earth survives? Isn't people surviving a more important question? Er, a little clarification is probably wise here. I'm not suggesting anything like a mass extinction is in the works. But as sea levels rise, poorer people that happen to live in low lying areas are going to be hard hit and many of them aren't exactly mobile. Relocating won't be an option for them.

If sea levels rise substantially we'll have problems too. Not just New Orleans, other big cities too (depending on the amount of sea level rise of course).

And think about all those mansions that rich people have built on the waterfront. Can you imagine how insurance rates are going to skyrocket. Not just theirs, but everyone's, after all socializing the risk is what they do.

But so far so good. It's like the one about the guy who fell off a high rise building. As he passed an open window on the 10th floor someone heard him say "no worries, doing fine so far". :)
 

xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Does anyone notice how the global warming crowd is using the what if argument more and more. They have been losing the public opinion battle more and more. Recent polls have shown less people consider it high on the list of concerns than a couple years ago. That failure and the prospect of huge money losses by big investors along with dashing the hopes of transferring money from wealthy countries to poor has created this new what if argument.

I think there is some straw grasping going on over at the save the world headqaurters.

Sent from my Fisher Price - ABC123
 
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OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
But why should the question be about whether the earth survives? Isn't people surviving a more important question? Er, a little clarification is probably wise here. I'm not suggesting anything like a mass extinction is in the works. But as sea levels rise, poorer people that happen to live in low lying areas are going to be hard hit and many of them aren't exactly mobile. Relocating won't be an option for them.

If sea levels rise substantially we'll have problems too. Not just New Orleans, other big cities too (depending on the amount of sea level rise of course).

And think about all those mansions that rich people have built on the waterfront. Can you imagine how insurance rates are going to skyrocket. Not just theirs, but everyone's, after all socializing the risk is what they do.

But so far so good. It's like the one about the guy who fell off a high rise building. As he passed an open window on the 10th floor someone heard him say "no worries, doing fine so far". :)

Most of your facts of low laying areas have been known ...since man settled here....we are stupid....period....to build in known flood zones and whats worse is we keep building there knowing that one day the ocean levels will rise....as LOS attributed, climate change has been forever...
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
But why should the question be about whether the earth survives? Isn't people surviving a more important question? Er, a little clarification is probably wise here. I'm not suggesting anything like a mass extinction is in the works. But as sea levels rise, poorer people that happen to live in low lying areas are going to be hard hit and many of them aren't exactly mobile. Relocating won't be an option for them.

If sea levels rise substantially we'll have problems too. Not just New Orleans, other big cities too (depending on the amount of sea level rise of course).

And think about all those mansions that rich people have built on the waterfront. Can you imagine how insurance rates are going to skyrocket. Not just theirs, but everyone's, after all socializing the risk is what they do.

But so far so good. It's like the one about the guy who fell off a high rise building. As he passed an open window on the 10th floor someone heard him say "no worries, doing fine so far". :)
But 'people surviving' really isn't the question at all. The fear isn't death, the fear is... "my life will change from the way it is right now, at the very least I'm going to be hugely inconvenienced." People may very well die along the seashores. Not at all unlike the people who live at the bottom of a hill that's ripe for a landslide, or people who live near active volcanoes or in earthquake zones or in tornado alley. But people will adapt. If may not be the same people still around and in the same places who have adapted, but people on the whole will adapt. People have been adapting to climate change ever since people have been here.

There are people who think that if we do all the right things, spend enough money, that we can stop climate change so that things stay just the way they are. They think they can work it so that corn and soybeans always stays growing in the Midwest instead of Canada, that cotton stays down south instead of South Dakota, that the mansions of Miami Beach stay right where they are. There's nothing we can do to stop that, just as there is nothing we can do to stop the next ice age where snow in on the ground year 'round in Ohio.

People are like butterflies who live for 24 hours and think that's all there is, and they think whatever it is right now that's how it's supposed to be all the time, always, forever. Or, the younger folks who don't have a clue, generally under about 35 or 40 years old, they think the world is, like, totally polluted and it's just filthy and we need to clean it up. They don't have the slightest idea of just how polluted things were in the 50s and 60s, before we cleaned it up.

The "poorer people that happen to live in low lying areas are going" to have to deal with it just like everybody else. (I can't believe you played the "poor people" card, as if we need to stop global warming to save the poor people. At least you didn't play the "for the chiiiildren" card. I'd have just up and hit you for that.)

It wasn't all that long ago that hardly anybody cared about the environment. There was a book written in the early 60s about it, called Silent Spring (was primarily about pesticide pollution), but nobody paid it any attention, even though today people credit it with starting the environmental movement and awareness of the earth, climate and the biosphere in general. But those who credit that book are wrong. You can go to Google Books and do keyword searches to see how frequently different things are written about. The environment was hardly written about in books or magazines or newspapers after that book came out. Scientists were the only ones who paid her book any attention.

Then, something happened. Something that caused the environmental movement to explode, caused the tree huggers to be born, caused people in general to go bat-crap crazy over the environment and CO2 and cow farts and global warming and climate change. Within just a few weeks after it happened, the Google Books search results show the environment to be something that began to be written about a lot, a lot, a lot, and it has been constantly written about ever since. It was something that forever changed the way we look at the Earth.

It was a simple photograph. Taken by a man named William Anders on Christmas Eve 1968 when he was on a trip with two other men named Frank Borman and James Lovell. The picture was first published to the world 12 days later, in January 1969, on the cover of Life Magazine. Sir Fred Hoyle, the great British cosmologist, predicted in 1948, 20 years before it was even taken, that this picture would change forever our view of our own planet. He was correct. It was this picture.

As with any life-altering event, some people can get a little hysterical and fanatical in the wake. And for many, that's exactly what is happening with climate change and global warming and pollution.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Human conceit underpins the claim we are causing global weather or climate change. Humans are to the Earth as a parasite is to a host. We need the planet, the planet does not need us. We humans aren't the center of the universe, we aren't even important to our own planet. Temporary lodgers at best. Humankind's day in the sun will come and go with little or no notice.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
From article:
If the Earth’s Atmosphere Were a Football Stadium
Atmospheric Gas Percent in Atmosphere People in the Stadium
Nitrogen (N2) 78% 7,800
Oxygen (O2) 21% 2,100
Argon (A) 1% 100
Carbon Dioxide (CO2) 0.038% 4
http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2007/05/01/carbon-dioxide-levels-are-blessing-not-problem
 
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muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The echo chamber speaks!

But about that 400ppm CO2 in the atmosphere problem? Could it be from the humane society? Cat farts? Ya know, with all these cat videos on the internet... They have bodily functions too. Just saying. :)
Carbon Dioxide is your friend:
From article:
CO2 Now Historically Low

A thin veneer of sedimentary rocks blankets the Earth's surface and, along with ice cores from glaciers, can provide a reasonable geologic history of the Earth's past atmosphere. Scientific study of these rocks suggests the Earth's atmosphere in ancient times had considerably more CO2 than today.

Many experiments have demonstrated that the rate of plant growth is largely governed by the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. As atmospheric CO2 increases, the growth rate of plants increases dramatically. Similarly, the plant growth rate decreases as atmospheric CO2 decreases.

Atmospheric carbon dioxide is the basic food for plants, and since plants provide the food for animal life (including humans), CO2 is the base of the food chain for all advanced life forms on Earth.

The present level of CO2 in the atmosphere is extremely low by historical standards. If atmospheric CO2 is significantly reduced, it is more likely that slower plant growth could affect world food supplies while having little effect on global warming. The life of all plants and animals on Earth is dependent on CO2 for food and oxygen.

Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant. It is the staff of life for our planet.
http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2007/05/01/carbon-dioxide-levels-are-blessing-not-problem
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"Silent Spring" was NOT the start of the "movement". The Issac Walton League was founded in 1922, Ducks Unlimited in 1937. Those who hunt and fish have long been the leaders and, for the most part, the ONLY people that really DO ANYTHING.

The Michigan Duck Hunters was "protesting" the "mess" on the Detroit River, and Lake Erie, back in the 1950's. They took two, five ton dump trucks full of dead ducks and dumped them on the steps of the Capital building in Lansing.

All the rest of the "GREENIES" are very much "johnny come latelys" and "do nothings". They just spout slogans and want laws passed to ruin peoples lives.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
With regard to the book 'Silent Spring',certain people DID pay attention to it. Unfortunately to the detriment of millions of lives.
(DDT was used to combat various deadly diseases) In the 60's, presidential advisory committees and congressional hearings took place, spurred on by the media. The Sierra Club and the Environmental Defense Fund brought forth litigation to ban DDT. In 1972, after the EPA was formed, the administrator did just that and overruled the EPA judge who found that DDT was NOT a carcinogenic hazard to man or wildlife . Due to the ban by the EPA, the lack of financial support from the U.S. and the UNWHO,the use of DDT went away. An ugly example of how a POLITICAL decision in government can determine the fate of millions of lives.
Our mission and history | Environmental Defense Fund

The Mosquito Killer

In Africa, DDT Makes a Comeback To Save Lives
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
They paid attention to it in terms of pesticides, but it wasn't the watershed of environmental protection and awareness that people claim. The Google Books and Lexus Nexus searches prove that. Many people were expressing concerns of the impact of human activity on the environment starting inure late 50s and early 60s, but there was no widespread public outcry for something to be done. Look at what year the EPA was created. 1970. That's a year after Earthrise was published. People were screaming, loudly.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
You will know when "climate change" is something to worry about when the promoters give up their limos, private jets, and boats. See, they aren't worried in the least. But they do want you to subscribe to their religion for political and profitable ventures.
Only have to look at how carbon credits are bought, traded, sold and distributed. It is a made up industry for middleman to profit. Kind of like a liberal Wall Street. It won't do a thing to produce clean air. Just a vehicle to move money around.
Look deep at the whole "green industry". Nothing more than a profitable make believe stock exchange that the government controls.
 

WanderngFool

Active Expediter
Did you get that memo? lol

You guys are right. We peaked in what, 1945? We can't possibly lead the world into the future. Electric cars? Let China build them. Solar power and the ability to unplug from the grid? (aka flipping off your util company) Let the Europeans do that.

It's pathetic, just pathetic.
 
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