The Epidemic of Mental Illness
- Thread starter Turtle
- Start date
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Well actually T-Hawk, it wasn't about me nor any expertise, the comments started long before I posted anything.
I think turtle's point and mine for that matter is there is no common sense by people in feeding their kids these drugs, but alas, common sense is not common in the world when it comes to medication in general.
The sad thing is most of you here complain about the welfare/ssi system and people being lazy or too stupid to work that are on it, but lack a big picture understanding of how these two subjects fit together in making these people in the first place - the pushing the use of drugs beyond their intended purpose by the doctors and the drug companies AND the laziness of the parents who feed the kids that end up on welfare/disability because they get so screwed up by the drugs that they can't work.
As Pilgrim noted. The articles should have made it clearer just how commonplace this is. More and more people with perfectly normal behaviors are diagnosed with mental illness which a high dollar pill or seventeen can solve, which makes them more and more dependent on not only the pills, but on society at large by having to go on disability/welfare. Then there's the dramatic increase of people just snapping and going crazy, an increase that directly parallels the widening of mental illness diagnoses and the over-prescribing of these mind altering chemicals.
chefdennis
Veteran Expediter
All of that is why I drink beer...lol....and lose my concentration when I see shiny objects and get bored easy and and and...
All of that is why I drink beer...lol....and lose my concentration when I see shiny objects and get bored easy and and and...
Chef, u obviously need a support group with ur drinking, if u will give me ur location, I will expedite 12 kegs in ur direction to help u get thru this depressed time in ur life . Of course u know I will have to have one keg to cover my drinking surcharge.
I dont have anything for shiny objects except sunglasses. Some one from Bison is bringing chips and dip.
On top of everything else, these anti-depressants are among other things, self perpetuating. If you'll notice the fine print on most all these drugs, it will warn the patient NOT to quit taking them cold turkey after having used them for several days. One must gradually wean themselves off them with a doctor's supervision or risk a variety of health risks which sometimes include heart attacks, strokes and death. How's that for a marketing plan?
I blame the pharm industry, for [saturation] advertising: planting the suggestion that perfectly normal things are 'symptoms', and people should 'ask your doctor'. Because we have been accustomed to trusting doctors, right?
And I blame the doctors for prescribing the unnecessary pills. [Which shouldn't be a surprise - it's the prescribing of unnecessary antibiotics that created the drug resistant strains of bacteria that are killing people now. One doctor replied to the question "Why?" with "If I don't, someone else will."] I don't blame the parents - they trust what the doctor tells them, it's how we were ALL brought up, right?
Even the docs who aren't collecting kickbacks from the pharm industries will prescribe them, just as they did antibiotics, because "someone else will" [and I might as well get the money as someone else.]
Greed has killed any chance of civilization's survival, I'm convinced.
And I blame the doctors for prescribing the unnecessary pills. [Which shouldn't be a surprise - it's the prescribing of unnecessary antibiotics that created the drug resistant strains of bacteria that are killing people now. One doctor replied to the question "Why?" with "If I don't, someone else will."] I don't blame the parents - they trust what the doctor tells them, it's how we were ALL brought up, right?
Even the docs who aren't collecting kickbacks from the pharm industries will prescribe them, just as they did antibiotics, because "someone else will" [and I might as well get the money as someone else.]
Greed has killed any chance of civilization's survival, I'm convinced.
Something else that's contributed to the rush to pharmaceutical relief is the sheltered generations that we as baby boomers have raised. Kids are brought up with an entitlement mentality, with no concept of earning self esteem by way of accomplishments or dealing with the possibly adverse consequences of their actions. They have a mindset of "s**t is not supposed to happen to me" instead of "s**t happens - deal with it". When it does happen to them, their parents are supposed to deal with it so they can keep going to parties and taking shopping trips to Abercrombie & Fitch.
They get out of school, get married and are overwhelmed by the responsibilities of making house and car payments, to say nothing of the weight of raising kids of their own. Their employers (if they're lucky enough to have a job right now) demand performance and productivity, so the pressure is more than they can bear. Not to worry - their group insurance has great prescription benefits so their doctor provides an Rx for "mother's little helper" to get them through the day. The Rolling Stones understood this in the 1970s, and it holds true today.
They get out of school, get married and are overwhelmed by the responsibilities of making house and car payments, to say nothing of the weight of raising kids of their own. Their employers (if they're lucky enough to have a job right now) demand performance and productivity, so the pressure is more than they can bear. Not to worry - their group insurance has great prescription benefits so their doctor provides an Rx for "mother's little helper" to get them through the day. The Rolling Stones understood this in the 1970s, and it holds true today.
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greg334
Veteran Expediter
Cheri,
The doctors are as much to blame as the pharma company and the parents. The doctor should be doing their Due Diligence on these drugs and not just buying into what the carpet salesman -- opp I mean drug rep is selling. The drug rep has 15 minutes with the doctor as a norm so they can't explain what the side effects are or go into the pharmekentic information is.
Many parents seem to be selfish or not ready to be parents and turn to the "I'm your friend" bit to help them parent. Many parents are not equipped to handle the kids if they are different than they were or think they were and turn to others to help them deal with the kids.
Just like handing over a 16 year old a car and telling them to drive themselves, turning to anti-depressants and other drugs to change the behavior of the kid to fit what is thought of as normal or mold them into the well behave kid is all too often a case of laziness on the parents part.
The doctors are as much to blame as the pharma company and the parents. The doctor should be doing their Due Diligence on these drugs and not just buying into what the carpet salesman -- opp I mean drug rep is selling. The drug rep has 15 minutes with the doctor as a norm so they can't explain what the side effects are or go into the pharmekentic information is.
Many parents seem to be selfish or not ready to be parents and turn to the "I'm your friend" bit to help them parent. Many parents are not equipped to handle the kids if they are different than they were or think they were and turn to others to help them deal with the kids.
Just like handing over a 16 year old a car and telling them to drive themselves, turning to anti-depressants and other drugs to change the behavior of the kid to fit what is thought of as normal or mold them into the well behave kid is all too often a case of laziness on the parents part.
do any of you who have chimed in on this subject have mentally handicapped children. the reason i ask is that the prescribing of drugs to these children, whether they are truly mentally handicapped or just hyper/problem children are most times perpetuated by the schools in which they attend. one problem and they get involved along with social services and a hole different can of worms and problems is opened. they will even go as far as to try to call it neglect and endangerment if you choose not to medicate. they will also fight you on keeping your child in the main stream of public school. there are so many problems that arise from these diagnoses that you would not believe. so many hoops to jump through. believe it or not, when it comes to school age children 5 - 18 your school accounts for many of the children being on drugs to control behavior instead of giving them the true help they need.
we have a mentally handicapped child we had to go through this battle with. our only recourse to keep him off medication was to put him in a private school with normal kids also where they actually give specialized help when needed. we did move him back to the public school for his highschool years and all was fine then cause the private school had did the job the public school wouldnt. funny thing though, when he graduated his final IQ test was lower than the one he took 4 yrs earlier upon reentry into the public school. how did that happen.
so in closing, YES, WE ALSO BLAME ALL MENTIONED PLUS THE SCHOOLS AND SOCIAL SERVICE DIVISIONS FOR ALL THIS OVER PRESCRIBING.
we have a mentally handicapped child we had to go through this battle with. our only recourse to keep him off medication was to put him in a private school with normal kids also where they actually give specialized help when needed. we did move him back to the public school for his highschool years and all was fine then cause the private school had did the job the public school wouldnt. funny thing though, when he graduated his final IQ test was lower than the one he took 4 yrs earlier upon reentry into the public school. how did that happen.
so in closing, YES, WE ALSO BLAME ALL MENTIONED PLUS THE SCHOOLS AND SOCIAL SERVICE DIVISIONS FOR ALL THIS OVER PRESCRIBING.
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No offense OVM, and I don't mean to single you out because I believe that many of you think the same way, but actually, the way you have described your experience of paying less for your medical treatment, you are one of those that are being subsidized and contributing to your country's need to lean more toward 'socialism'. You probably underpaid the actual cost by a third, and caused the plan which some people have, to overpay by a third, thereby increasing their premiums.
And yet... all I hear about on here is how you (Americans) shouldn't be mandated to have a plan of your own, and socialism this and that, and govt stay out of our affairs. It is interesting to me that some of you seem to not even know when you are collecting the benefits of those very things which you purport to despise.
There are many names for things, and just because something isn't specifically named a certain thing, doesn't mean that it isn't in fact that very thing. If it looks and walks and sounds and smells and tastes like a chicken, it's a chicken, even if it's called something else.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Cheri,
Many parents don't know what it is like to be parents or don't want to learn. A lot of those are selfish and quick to take any easy way out of putting time in parenting. A lot of parents turn to their GP and ask for something to help them with the kid's "Problem" and go on describing the behavior from their point of view without further testing so the GP hands the parent a script and the child suffers.
If you don't know anyone like that, look around because they are all over the place. The kids are acting like kids and the parents want them to act like adults and stay still or be quiet. I am not talking about the kid who is bouncing off the wall 25/7 or has a serious mental issue but the kid who wants to be a kid.
This can be backed up by the so called epidemic of "obese" children, which I think is 80% the fault of the parent. It amazes me to watch a kid in a shopping cart being impatient sitting there for 25 minutes while not being able to do a thing and than the parent grabs something off the shelf and hands them it to eat. The same goes for medicating the kid to behave as the parent wants them to.
Yes molding, some of these drugs have a lasting effect, seeing the brain isn't developed enough to deal with the LSD effect the drug has, it has been found that there is a semi-permanent alteration of some parts of the brain in adults. So yes molding the behavior.
Many parents don't know what it is like to be parents or don't want to learn. A lot of those are selfish and quick to take any easy way out of putting time in parenting. A lot of parents turn to their GP and ask for something to help them with the kid's "Problem" and go on describing the behavior from their point of view without further testing so the GP hands the parent a script and the child suffers.
If you don't know anyone like that, look around because they are all over the place. The kids are acting like kids and the parents want them to act like adults and stay still or be quiet. I am not talking about the kid who is bouncing off the wall 25/7 or has a serious mental issue but the kid who wants to be a kid.
This can be backed up by the so called epidemic of "obese" children, which I think is 80% the fault of the parent. It amazes me to watch a kid in a shopping cart being impatient sitting there for 25 minutes while not being able to do a thing and than the parent grabs something off the shelf and hands them it to eat. The same goes for medicating the kid to behave as the parent wants them to.
Yes molding, some of these drugs have a lasting effect, seeing the brain isn't developed enough to deal with the LSD effect the drug has, it has been found that there is a semi-permanent alteration of some parts of the brain in adults. So yes molding the behavior.
Greg: my only direct observation of the issue is with my 8 yr old granddaughter, who is a textbook case of ADD, and always has been. Her parents hoped that school would engage her interest [because ADD kids look for something that interests them, whenever the current situation doesn't]. They didn't want to assume she needs medication, if another way might work.
In the last 4 years, her weight has doubled - not because Mom or Dad give her candy or treats to keep her quiet, [Mom won't allow 'junk food at all for several years now], but because the child developed the habit of interpreting boredom and/or disinterest as 'hunger', long before her parents caught on. She knows that her parents don't accept "I'm bored" as a reason to eat, [but she is too young to truly understand the danger of obesity], so for the last couple years she has just taken advantage of whatever opportunities appear to sneak food. [Even yogurt isn't healthy if you take a six pack to your room when no one is watching, and eat them all.] Keeping her from overeating is a constant battle for her parents, and hard on them [and her older sister, who isn't ADD], too, because all food has to be limited, and monitored with vigilance.
The social problem is evident in school: when she isn't interested in whatever is being taught, she will attempt to engage a classmate in conversation, either getting them both punished, or being rejected and disliked for it. The child has NO friends, because she annoys everyone in the class, simply by needing to be engaged in something she finds interesting.
She does NOT run around or act 'hyper' or squirm, contrary to the dismissive descriptions of "kids medicated because they can't sit still" - everything she does is because she feels 'bored', in her words.
This is a child who would certainly benefit from Ritalin, which has been proven to allow people to focus on the task at hand. Even if it only kept her from considering food a good way to kill some time, [she needs to exercise, but shy isn't hyperactive at all] it would help - but she isn't getting it.
First, the family Dr referred her to a pediatric Dr, who ran a number of tests, announced that she certainly appears to be ADD, and suggested trying 'behavioral modification' first, for at least 12 weeks. To wit: she is given a time limit to accomplish every task, using an egg timer that she can see. When she fails to get done on time, her bedtime is moved up by 15 minutes. [I joked that by the time the 12 weeks were up, she wouldn't even be able to go to school, being in bed 24/7, but it wasn't funny.] Her parents were diligent in explaining it to her, using the timer, and following through, and it didn't change the child's behavior one iota. [It didn't help that her other grandmother didn't follow the new routine consistently, either, but that's beyond my daughter's control - she did her best to follow the Dr's plan, and it changed nothing except the fight over bedtime got earlier every day.]
So once it looked as if she would finally get effective treatment [I've felt very bad for her - it's not easy being her, I'm sure: she's overweight, has no friends, and is usually causing adults to lose patience with her needing to be interested, or looking for something else to do instead.] her parents realized they can not afford to continue with the pediatrician. Her 13 yr old sister is undergoing expensive orthodontia that cannot be postponed, and the deductibles are just too high to meet. The family Dr will not prescribe anything for ADD, it has to be the high cost pediatrician.
So this is what I think of, when people rant about how easy it is to 'medicate kids who can't sit still' or 'drug them to behave' - it isn't at all what I have been part of for the past 6 years - quite the opposite.
My daughter is a nurse, and is committed to doing what's best for her kids [she banned smoking in the house, although she and her husband both smoke, and she has never backed down on it for one second since this child was born]. The child needs help beyond what parents and/or teachers can provide, it seems pretty clear that Ritalin is exactly what does help such children focus [there's a lot of brain chemistry that isn't understood well, or at all] and SHE'S NOT GETTING IT.
So you'll understand if my response to your comments is simply this: <snort>. I don't see what you describe, I have never seen anything like what you describe, and I'm pretty frustrated that my granddaughter is making everyone's life miserable, [especially her own!] because her reality is exactly the opposite of what you describe.
In the last 4 years, her weight has doubled - not because Mom or Dad give her candy or treats to keep her quiet, [Mom won't allow 'junk food at all for several years now], but because the child developed the habit of interpreting boredom and/or disinterest as 'hunger', long before her parents caught on. She knows that her parents don't accept "I'm bored" as a reason to eat, [but she is too young to truly understand the danger of obesity], so for the last couple years she has just taken advantage of whatever opportunities appear to sneak food. [Even yogurt isn't healthy if you take a six pack to your room when no one is watching, and eat them all.] Keeping her from overeating is a constant battle for her parents, and hard on them [and her older sister, who isn't ADD], too, because all food has to be limited, and monitored with vigilance.
The social problem is evident in school: when she isn't interested in whatever is being taught, she will attempt to engage a classmate in conversation, either getting them both punished, or being rejected and disliked for it. The child has NO friends, because she annoys everyone in the class, simply by needing to be engaged in something she finds interesting.
She does NOT run around or act 'hyper' or squirm, contrary to the dismissive descriptions of "kids medicated because they can't sit still" - everything she does is because she feels 'bored', in her words.
This is a child who would certainly benefit from Ritalin, which has been proven to allow people to focus on the task at hand. Even if it only kept her from considering food a good way to kill some time, [she needs to exercise, but shy isn't hyperactive at all] it would help - but she isn't getting it.
First, the family Dr referred her to a pediatric Dr, who ran a number of tests, announced that she certainly appears to be ADD, and suggested trying 'behavioral modification' first, for at least 12 weeks. To wit: she is given a time limit to accomplish every task, using an egg timer that she can see. When she fails to get done on time, her bedtime is moved up by 15 minutes. [I joked that by the time the 12 weeks were up, she wouldn't even be able to go to school, being in bed 24/7, but it wasn't funny.] Her parents were diligent in explaining it to her, using the timer, and following through, and it didn't change the child's behavior one iota. [It didn't help that her other grandmother didn't follow the new routine consistently, either, but that's beyond my daughter's control - she did her best to follow the Dr's plan, and it changed nothing except the fight over bedtime got earlier every day.]
So once it looked as if she would finally get effective treatment [I've felt very bad for her - it's not easy being her, I'm sure: she's overweight, has no friends, and is usually causing adults to lose patience with her needing to be interested, or looking for something else to do instead.] her parents realized they can not afford to continue with the pediatrician. Her 13 yr old sister is undergoing expensive orthodontia that cannot be postponed, and the deductibles are just too high to meet. The family Dr will not prescribe anything for ADD, it has to be the high cost pediatrician.
So this is what I think of, when people rant about how easy it is to 'medicate kids who can't sit still' or 'drug them to behave' - it isn't at all what I have been part of for the past 6 years - quite the opposite.
My daughter is a nurse, and is committed to doing what's best for her kids [she banned smoking in the house, although she and her husband both smoke, and she has never backed down on it for one second since this child was born]. The child needs help beyond what parents and/or teachers can provide, it seems pretty clear that Ritalin is exactly what does help such children focus [there's a lot of brain chemistry that isn't understood well, or at all] and SHE'S NOT GETTING IT.
So you'll understand if my response to your comments is simply this: <snort>. I don't see what you describe, I have never seen anything like what you describe, and I'm pretty frustrated that my granddaughter is making everyone's life miserable, [especially her own!] because her reality is exactly the opposite of what you describe.
cheri, see that goes to show how all over the place this problem really is greg see's it his way. we had trouble with the doctors and the schools and social services trying to keep our son from being over medicated. you and your family are having trouble getting anyone to help. really is frustrating when the medical industry is all over the place. good luck in getting the help she needs. i hope the ritalin works if you can get it. it did not for us, kept complaining that it made his hair crawl and was totally exhausted by supper every night. really, i hope you find help. it is a very sad situation for the family to be in having to feel the way they do about what they see and experience.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Cheri,
My nephew is going through the same exact thing. BUT my sister didn't depend on the GP or a ped doctor who she felt wasn't qualified to determine what his problems were, she went to a specialist who tested his IQ and then put him on a strict diet with low carbs with some things to help him focus. The fight hasn't been bad since the IQ test came back as being high and even though his focus in school is still been poor, his interests have been identified and they focused on that which has helped the school.
With that said, I know there are a lot of issues here, schools are one of them, access to the programs they provide are restricted but that's not what I'm saying at all. I am saying that parents with normal kids can't handle the kids when they act normal.
Acting abnormal or having ADD/ADHD is one thing altogether different. The same goes for parents who depend on their GP to make calls instead of having the best interest of the kid in mind while prescribing something like Zoloft because of the 15 minutes they have with the parent and not 45 minutes with the kid - this happens a lot. MANY parents want a way out, they don't want to solve the problem or find a reason why, they want to live their lives without the problems.
The same goes for doctors who depend on the reps to have them tell the docs what the meds do and don't do. The reps are not medical professionals, and as many of us who were in the business said "carpet sales one day, drug sales the next" holds true for many of them. The doctors do not do Due Diligence and over prescribe or mis-prescribe the meds.
As this thread was about the expansion of mental health illness, it too has a part to play with all of this because we are to blame for it to be muttled in the quigimire of our health care system. We all too often depend on those who are not educated to make the call or don't want to take the effort to find out why for the right reasons. Many have grown complacent with the health system and fail themselves and their family. With all of this intelligence today floating around, I am still floored by the idea that some have that cancer can be treated in an outpatient ward of a hospital like they do on TV.
BUT TO recap;
I am not saying all parents are lazy, many are and those seem to be selfish in their way of thinking.
I am not saying all drugs that kids get are all bad, many do a good job but saying many drugs are not tested no children and are mind altering at the same time we do not know the extent of the damage they do to the kids brain.
I am not saying that all doctors are at fault, but many are part of the bigger problem. A lot of them are not the old country doc who has one office and one nurse to help him but belong to a practice with many doctors and usually have to push 40 patients through a day to make the bills.
AND I am saying that our country is being screwed by the FDA and the Pharma companies.
My nephew is going through the same exact thing. BUT my sister didn't depend on the GP or a ped doctor who she felt wasn't qualified to determine what his problems were, she went to a specialist who tested his IQ and then put him on a strict diet with low carbs with some things to help him focus. The fight hasn't been bad since the IQ test came back as being high and even though his focus in school is still been poor, his interests have been identified and they focused on that which has helped the school.
With that said, I know there are a lot of issues here, schools are one of them, access to the programs they provide are restricted but that's not what I'm saying at all. I am saying that parents with normal kids can't handle the kids when they act normal.
Acting abnormal or having ADD/ADHD is one thing altogether different. The same goes for parents who depend on their GP to make calls instead of having the best interest of the kid in mind while prescribing something like Zoloft because of the 15 minutes they have with the parent and not 45 minutes with the kid - this happens a lot. MANY parents want a way out, they don't want to solve the problem or find a reason why, they want to live their lives without the problems.
The same goes for doctors who depend on the reps to have them tell the docs what the meds do and don't do. The reps are not medical professionals, and as many of us who were in the business said "carpet sales one day, drug sales the next" holds true for many of them. The doctors do not do Due Diligence and over prescribe or mis-prescribe the meds.
As this thread was about the expansion of mental health illness, it too has a part to play with all of this because we are to blame for it to be muttled in the quigimire of our health care system. We all too often depend on those who are not educated to make the call or don't want to take the effort to find out why for the right reasons. Many have grown complacent with the health system and fail themselves and their family. With all of this intelligence today floating around, I am still floored by the idea that some have that cancer can be treated in an outpatient ward of a hospital like they do on TV.
BUT TO recap;
I am not saying all parents are lazy, many are and those seem to be selfish in their way of thinking.
I am not saying all drugs that kids get are all bad, many do a good job but saying many drugs are not tested no children and are mind altering at the same time we do not know the extent of the damage they do to the kids brain.
I am not saying that all doctors are at fault, but many are part of the bigger problem. A lot of them are not the old country doc who has one office and one nurse to help him but belong to a practice with many doctors and usually have to push 40 patients through a day to make the bills.
AND I am saying that our country is being screwed by the FDA and the Pharma companies.
Greg: I can agree with all except your view of the "many" parents who request drugs from the family doc to make their job [parenting] easier, and the docs who go along with such a request - I've never known any parents or docs like that.
Which is not to say they don't exist, but to believe they are a significant percentage of either group is further than I can go.
Every parent I know places a higher priority on the best interest of their child than their own convenience, even if they have completely different ideas as to what 'best interest' involves. I may think they are wrong for taking a certain approach, but I believe they are doing it because it's what they see as right, not because they're too lazy to actually be a parent.
Which is not to say they don't exist, but to believe they are a significant percentage of either group is further than I can go.
Every parent I know places a higher priority on the best interest of their child than their own convenience, even if they have completely different ideas as to what 'best interest' involves. I may think they are wrong for taking a certain approach, but I believe they are doing it because it's what they see as right, not because they're too lazy to actually be a parent.
we are way past the medication phase in our sons life as he is now 28. we made it through with a strong set of rules. making him accountable for all of his actions and alot of explaining and a strong focus on treating him as normal as anyone else, no breaks. after a while these kids do realize they are different and special kids have a very canny knack for being able to optimize any situation to their benefit. they are smart, in some ways to smart. we were very aggressive in our focus, discipline and routine. while our situation is different than a adhd only problem, we have mental illness also, i believe these rules apply as they worked for us. we wished there would be more services for mental illness patients but that is where society falls shy. while there are good programs, depending on where you live they can be very limited. once again good luck and keep up with the focus and structured lifestyle it will help.