The Case For Single Payer, Universal Health Care For The United States

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
If the likely near trillions of dollars in total costs for all criminal aliens and amnesty aliens were available then healthcare wouldn't be a problem. A huge part of the healthcare problem is criminal and amnesty aliens draining the system along with huge drains due to criminals and the improper handling of them as well. We're on a loose jointed liberal ship and far too many are doing no more than bailing the ever increasing flooding from the ship. It's insane and we'll likely never recover but eventually capsize and sink.
 

Toronto40

Seasoned Expediter
For 3 years I drove my 78 year old grandmother to the Niagra Falls area in Canada twice a year to see a heart specialist for her check-ups and medication. They didn't limit her access to medication or care, it was cheaper and she fealt she received better care from that doctor.

Thank you witness 23:). For every bad story their are 10 good stories. i know people of all ages here and most seem happy. I will admit that I live in Toronto where their is better access to healthcare. But when my mom had a stroke in Oklahoma last year, the ambulance took her an hour away to Tulsa, because the rural areas can't even treat you at their hospitals. Canada paid for one of our friends to have treatment in the states for prostate cancer, but he had complications and stayed longer in the hospital here. Most people I know that have had illnesses here were treated here. And they are all doing well.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The question is, does a "Free" Nation use "force" of any kind to impose something on a private citizen does not want? To force that citizen to purchase a plan that they choose not to? To impose fines? To cancel plans that people hold and like? Those are VERY important questions. Why are they not being answered? How much force is enough? How much force is legal. Is this bill even legal under our Constitution? Does this government have the authority to take over 1/6th of the economy?

I have a plan that will most likely, not for sure, be eliminated under this plan. I will have my CHOICE taken away. Is that right? Why should I have to pay for other care? I pay for ours. That is my only responsibility.

That is not the point. This is this country, under our Constitution. Forget the rest, is this legal here? Is this worth losing freedom over? Forcing this, the use of fines etc IS a lose of freedom. Losing exsisting plans and choices is a lose of freedom, is it worth it? Who SHOULD control your health care choices, you or the government?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It's a load of crap, but proponents argue that Congress derives the authority to mandate that people purchase health insurance from its constitutional power to regulate interstate commerce. Medical school, medicines, medical equipment, everything involved in health care is derived from interstate commerce in one way or another.

In the words of the greatly esteemed and revered Nancy Pelosi:

"Congress has broad power to regulate activities that have an effect on interstate commerce. Congress has used this authority to regulate many aspects of American life, from labor relations to education to health care to agricultural production.”

“On the shared responsibility requirement in the House health insurance reform bill, which operates like auto insurance in most states, individuals must either purchase coverage (and non-exempt employers must purchase coverage for their workers)—or pay a modest penalty for not doing so. The bill uses the tax code to provide a strong incentive for Americans to have insurance coverage and not pass their emergency health costs onto other Americans—but it allows them a way to pay their way out of that obligation. There is no constitutional problem with these provisions.”



The auto insurance correlation is likewise a load of crap. Yes, if you drive an automobile you have to have insurance, or pay a fine of you fail to obtain insurance. But that's a condition of driving an automobile, not one of simply living here and being a citizen. Those who do not own or drive a motor vehicle are not subject to these costs and fines, but everyone who want to live and breath, as a condition of doing so, will have to buy insurance, or be subject to fines.

In the words of the Congressional Budget Office (in response to Clinton's 1994 attempt at mandating that people buy insurance):

“The government has never required people to buy any good or service as a condition of lawful residence in the United States. An individual mandate would have two features that, in combination, would make it unique. First, it would impose a duty on individuals as members of society. Second, it would require people to purchase a specific service that would be heavily regulated by the federal government.”

It's a nasty business, and sneaking it in via the interstate commerce clause is a pretty childish way to go about it. A better move would be to have this pounded out and ratified just like any other Constitutional Amendment, since universal health care reform will affect each and every one of us on a fundamental level, the same as a Constitutional Amendment would. A ratified Amendment would ensure that a vast majority of the people were behind it, unlike the crap that's being shoved down the vast majority currently.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Is not the auto insurance regulations state as opposed to Federal? What do those of you who like this plan think? It is constitutional? Is this a lose of freedoms? Is it worth force?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Is not the auto insurance regulations state as opposed to Federal?
Yes, it's state, not federal, but it's irrelevant either way. Owning or driving a car is not mandated as a condition of residence in any state. If you don't want to drive, or don't want to own a car, that's fine, you don't have to. And if you don't, then you aren't required to buy insurance, nor are you going to have to pay a fine because you don't have insurance.

But, if you want to drive, then you gotta have insurance, as a condition of driving.

It's like some member of The State, like a police officer, walking up to you and demanding to see your papers. He can't do that. It's unconstitutional. If, however, you are driving a car, he can, for no apparent reason other than asking for it just to ask for it, since having a valid driver's license is a condition of driving the car in the first place.

But having to have insurance, or having to show your papers, is all predicated on driving a car.

With mandated universal health insurance, it becomes a condition of lawful residence in this country. You either buy it, get out, or get fined for not doing one or the other.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
That is correct and I contend that it is NOT Constitutional. That is why I as those who want this, how much force are they willing to accept to force others to partake in this, even if they CHOOSE not to? After all freedom is the right to choose.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"oh, thank god, thank god, now that Obama is elected I won't have to worry about my mortgage payment, I won't have to pay for my gasoline". I don't remember the exact quote but the woman was on the news many times with her ridiculous thoughts and quotes. Those are the people who will think this is a great idea and will be fine iwth forcing it on everyone else.

Yes, it's wrong. Yes, it's probably illegal. It's certainly got to be unconstitutional. Pelosi is a tool, a moron, an idiot, a horrible individual. Many others are as well. They can't be removed from the congressional cess pool soon enough. Sadly they aren't sterile and have further polluted the gene pool with liberalism and entitlement.
 
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