Teacher fired for giving Bible to student

[cheri1122]

No, it is not a logical implication of my words. I did not ever word it that way in the slightest.

If it isn't logical to infer that your puzzlement over "how a person of your age has not totally formed their entire set of core beliefs" is because of the admission of agnosticism you quoted in your post, combined with the fact that religious beliefs are the heart of the thread, then we have quite different definitions of logical.
I already suspected that, anyhow.

 

[layoutshooter]

If it isn't logical to infer that your puzzlement over "how a person of your age has not totally formed their entire set of core beliefs" is because of the admission of agnosticism you quoted in your post, combined with the fact that religious beliefs are the heart of the thread, then we have quite different definitions of logical.
I already suspected that, anyhow.

I asked a man a question. I did not understand how one could have a full set of core beliefs without having made a solid decision on belief or not belief in God. I did not understand the thought process. I wanted to understand, so I asked. I did, in no way, suggest that a set of religious convictions was needed to form core beliefs. Nor did I suggest that firmly NOT believing was needed.

I THOUGH I asked that question in a respectful manner, and I hope it was taken in the way it was meant. I was not trying to cause any trouble in any way.

 

[cheri1122]

I asked a man a question. I did not understand how one could have a full set of core beliefs without having made a solid decision on belief or not belief in God. I did not understand the thought process. I wanted to understand, so I asked. I did, in no way, suggest that a set of religious convictions was needed to form core beliefs. Nor did I suggest that firmly NOT believing was needed.

It seems to me that the 4th sentence: "I did, in no way, suggest that a set of religious convictions was needed to form core beliefs" is 100% contradicted by the 2nd one: "I did not understand how one could have a full set of core beliefs without having made a solid decision on belief or not belief in God".

BTW: agnosticism is a solid decision: to wait for proof, one way or the other.

I THOUGH I asked that question in a respectful manner, and I hope it was taken in the way it was meant. I was not trying to cause any trouble in any way.

Not this time, lol.

 

[Turtle]

While I do think the assumption was perfectly logical, it was, nevertheless, an incorrect one. I think the" trouble" shoe is on the other foot this time.

 

[cheri1122]

If making perfectly logical assumptions is causing trouble, just call me Cinderella, cause the shoe fits.

 

[Dreamer]

One of the reasons I believe in God, besides my own feelings and faith.(I have 'felt' His presence, but I can't show you or prove it).... is that I've seen evil. Pure evil. I'm not talking about stuff I disagree with, or 'sins'.. but pure evil that I refuse to believe a man could imagine on his own... like an infection or an insidious disease; not just a screwed up mind, a mental breakdown, a misfire.... It had to come from somewhere, or someone outside... and if pure evil exists.. then pure good must exist to counterbalance it.. I choose to believe that is God.

But.. I guess that's a whole other theological discussion....



Back to Bibles in school.


Dale

 

[Turtle]

Back to Bibles in school.

I cannot fathom what possible damage could result by having a Bible in schools, or broadcasting a morning prayer over the intercoms in classrooms, or acknowledging that religion exists and is a major part of the human condition. I can plainly see, we all can, the results in schools of not having those things.

Whinny little brats who want their way, and the Supreme Court who has by and large let them, have turned a simple, unambiguous phrase in the Constitution into something entirely different. The "no establishment of religion" clause means no state religion. Think Church of England, which is what the Founding Fathers wanted to avoid completely. It does not, and never did mean that the state cannot acknowledge and allow religion within its hallowed halls and institutions. All it means is that the state cannot force a preference of one over another, or promote any particular religion. And more to the point, the Amendment speaks of Congress making a law establishing a religion (and a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion), not each and every possible local, state and federal government entity and how they must divorce themselves from any and all things religious out of fear that by doing so Congress is somehow creating a law in violation of the Amendment.

These things Congress cannot legislate: an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It's as straightforward and unambiguous as the right to keep and bear arm "shall not be infringed," which is absolute in its phrasing and meaning and intent.

We (most of us, anyway) certainly don't want Congress establishing a state religion, but there's no real valid reason, save the Supreme Court's bone-headed decisions, that government entities can't participate in or allow a religion or religions within.

Now, when they start legislating Creationism be taught in schools (cough, cough, Kansas, cough), it's a problem, because now you're promoting one particular religion, and that you cannot do under even the most conservative interpretation of the First Amendment.

But a Bible in a schoolhouse or the Ten Commandments in a courthouse are unquestionably the least offensive things a government can do, I don't care who you are or what you believe or don't believe.

 

[skyraider]

well its Sunday so here you go, take a moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=B3XdXEJEI4E

 

[cheri1122]

Turtle: you can't fathom what possible damage could result from having a Bible in school? I can: the perception that the Christian religion is favored, which is where the founding fathers wanted us to avoid going. Favoring any one religion is tacit disfavoring of all others - the first step to places we don't want to go: fascism, communism, totalitarianism....
It may be the religion of the majority, but no religion should appear to enjoy any sort of preferred status by the government that represents every citizen.
I'd also question the statement that lack of religion in schools is responsible for the problems which you and so many others attribute to it. Religion is no substitute for proper parenting - never has been and never will be.

 

[davekc]

Christianity will and should be discussed more because many laws, history, and government are based on it. Doesn't mean you can't discuss others. But as mentioned, Scientology for example would be smaller because not as many things are based on it.
Liken it to Germany and the Nazis. That was discussed heavily in school but I wouldn't say it was favored or converted a large number.
As far as religion in schools, I wouldn't say it is a better replacement for good parenting. However I would say that private religious schools historically have a lot less problems than public schools. Certainly hard to argue that. And it isn't a money thing as many religious schools operate with a fraction of the money public school get.

 

[LDB]

Turtle: you can't fathom what possible damage could result from having a Bible in school? I can: the perception that the Christian religion is favored, which is where the founding fathers wanted us to avoid going. Favoring any one religion is tacit disfavoring of all others - the first step to places we don't want to go: fascism, communism, totalitarianism....
It may be the religion of the majority, but no religion should appear to enjoy any sort of preferred status by the government that represents every citizen.
I'd also question the statement that lack of religion in schools is responsible for the problems which you and so many others attribute to it. Religion is no substitute for proper parenting - never has been and never will be.

And then again, having a Bible in school can and does do nothing at all and did so through decades and generations. It wasn't until the 60's when the liberals really began taking over that serious problems began appearing in schools. That was also the time when the liberals with the help of the fringe like Madelyn Murray O'Hare took the Bible and prayer out of school. If anything, it is the absence of a Bible in school that has brought us Columbine, Sandy Hook and others.

 

[Turtle]

Turtle: you can't fathom what possible damage could result from having a Bible in school?

No, I can't. Anymore than I can't fathom the possible damage that might result from having Catch-22 in a school.

I can: the perception that the Christian religion is favored, which is where the founding fathers wanted us to avoid going. Favoring any one religion is tacit disfavoring of all others - the first step to places we don't want to go: fascism, communism, totalitarianism....

Perception doesn't matter. It's reality that matters. People can perceive all kinds of crazy and untrue things, but it's what is actually happening that counts.

It may be the religion of the majority, but no religion should appear to enjoy any sort of preferred status by the government that represents every citizen.

I agree, no religion should be preferred. But there's no need to ban it, either But it could be a Bible, the Qur'an, the Tanakh, the Ching, the Grapes of Wrath, Gone with the Wind, I don't care. There's nothing wrong with having any of those in a school.

I'd also question the statement that lack of religion in schools is responsible for the problems which you and so many others attribute to it. Religion is no substitute for proper parenting - never has been and never will be.

Dave covered that one pretty well. I'll only add that learning about religions in general, or even one in particular, is part of a very large litany of influences that teaches people right from wrong and consequences of responsibility, all things which have been absent in our public schools since the Supreme Court mandated that any all traces of religion have been removed.

I don't think for a minute that removing religion from the schools is the sole cause of the nation's ills today, but it is, without question, a factor, as 200 years of history and comparisons to public and private schools show.

 

[cheri1122]

As part of a comparative religion class, the Bible would belong. As the only representative of religion, it should not - that's what I meant.
If schools don't teach about all religions, they should.
Waaaay back when I was a student, I can't recall any teaching about religion.
Course, I did skip a lot of classes....

 

[cheri1122]

Christianity will and should be discussed more because many laws, history, and government are based on it. Doesn't mean you can't discuss others. But as mentioned, Scientology for example would be smaller because not as many things are based on it.
Liken it to Germany and the Nazis. That was discussed heavily in school but I wouldn't say it was favored or converted a large number.
As far as religion in schools, I wouldn't say it is a better replacement for good parenting. However I would say that private religious schools historically have a lot less problems than public schools. Certainly hard to argue that. And it isn't a money thing as many religious schools operate with a fraction of the money public school get.

Even if religious schools were free [and last I heard, they're often very pricey], they have quite an advantage over public schools: they don't have to accept any student they don't want. The delinquents, troublemakers, and 'problem kids' are not found in their classrooms.
Public schools have to take them and deal with the trouble they cause. Also have to accept the kids whose home lives are less than ideal [way less], who come in each morning literally hungry, sleepless, etc

 

[Turtle]

I can't recall any particular religious schooling, per se, but we had a prayer before sporting events, and when religion was relevant in a subject we were studying, we didn't pretend religion didn't exist (like they do now). We also had a morning prayer over the intercom in elementary school, and we said the Pledge of Allegiance, with our hands over our hearts, facing the flag, every day.

I was also a Boy Scout (once a Scout, always a Scout) for many years. It's a religious organization. I put up with the religious aspect of it because I liked Scouting. School and Scouting are small examples in my life where I learned tolerance, to tolerate things I didn't necessarily agree with. People today are all about "me and what I want" rather than being civil, being nice, respecting others. The younger generations today haven't learned what tolerance is, and they don't know how to tolerate anything. Rather than respect those around you, many people would defiantly not bow their heads while those around them did so in prayer, regardless of how upsetting it would be to others. Pathetic. Rude.

 

[Dreamer]

Even if religious schools were free [and last I heard, they're often very pricey], they have quite an advantage over public schools: they don't have to accept any student they don't want. The delinquents, troublemakers, and 'problem kids' are not found in their classrooms.
Public schools have to take them and deal with the trouble they cause. Also have to accept the kids whose home lives are less than ideal [way less], who come in each morning literally hungry, sleepless, etc

I beg to differ Cheri. My wife is the product of a Christian School.. and believe me, there were many delinquents, troublemakers, etc.. . the difference? Many of them became the outstanding students because of dedicating their lives to God. That influence changed lives. As for cost, sure there's cost.. because they don't get the state tax money.. so the cost has to be paid somehow. At the one my wife went to, church and local community members donated money to the school for scholarships, and some even could work off their tuition at the school. This is how my wife got to go.

There were some also, as you say from "less than ideal" who came in hungry. They ate there. Their spiritual and physical needs were ministered to, not just their intellectual needs, turning out very well rounded students.


The influence of such a school cannot be denied.


Dale

 

[asjssl]

I can't recall any particular religious schooling, per se, but we had a prayer before sporting events, and when religion was relevant in a subject we were studying, we didn't pretend religion didn't exist (like they do now). We also had a morning prayer over the intercom in elementary school, and we said the Pledge of Allegiance, with our hands over our hearts, facing the flag, every day.

I was also a Boy Scout (once a Scout, always a Scout) for many years. It's a religious organization. I put up with the religious aspect of it because I liked Scouting. School and Scouting are small examples in my life where I learned tolerance, to tolerate things I didn't necessarily agree with. People today are all about "me and what I want" rather than being civil, being nice, respecting others. The younger generations today haven't learned what tolerance is, and they don't know how to tolerate anything. Rather than respect those around you, many people would defiantly not bow their heads while those around them did so in prayer, regardless of how upsetting it would be to others. Pathetic. Rude.

Why should I bow my head to something I believe 0 in?? Would you do some ritual to some another religion/organization you didn't believe and or agree with..why should I be forced to partake In there ritual..I don't partake to be disrespectful....
I was a scout my whole life..dad was the scoutmaster...scouting to me had 0 religious connection.. guess how each troop was managed I guess..

 

[LDB]

How about you bow your head out of respect to other's, the same other's you regularly and loudly demand to respect your unbeliefs and wishes? I've gone with friends to religious services and events that are not my religion. Personally I believe they are no different than a PTA meeting or similar but out of respect for my friends I follow their lead.

 

[asjssl]

How about you bow your head out of respect to other's, the same other's you regularly and loudly demand to respect your unbeliefs and wishes? I've gone with friends to religious services and events that are not my religion. Personally I believe they are no different than a PTA meeting or similar but out of respect for my friends I follow their lead.

Be respectful of gay person right to marry.. you may not believe in it ...but be respectful..
If you went to your neighbors house and they asked you to join them in a satanic ritual you wouldn't because you don't believe in it. I'm not saying bowing your head is a satanic ritual but it is a ritual nevertheless... that I don't believe in....

 

[Turtle]

Why should I bow my head to something I believe 0 in??

You wouldn't be bowing your head TO anything. You'd simply be bowing your head, like everybody else, out of simple civility and politeness, to make others feel more comfortable and at ease.

Would you do some ritual to some another religion/organization you didn't believe and or agree with..

Sure, why not? No skin off my nose. And I have. I've been to other churches and synagogues, and like Leo said, I follow their lead out of respect. It doesn't do anyone any harm to me polite, you know.

why should I be forced to partake In there ritual..I don't partake to be disrespectful....

No one is forcing you to do anything.

I was a scout my whole life..dad was the scoutmaster...scouting to me had 0 religious connection.. guess how each troop was managed I guess..

Prolly should have paid more attention, not only about how and why the Scouts were formed, but of the Oath and Promise you took (and still should know by heart).

Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

Scout Law
A Scout is:
Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful,
Friendly, Courteous, Kind,
Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty,
Brave, Clean, Reverent