Teacher fired for giving Bible to student

[Turtle]

Be respectful of gay person right to marry.. you may not believe in it ...but be respectful..

It's difficult to respect a right that doesn't even exist. Saying that it exists doesn't magically make it exist. Stomping your foot real hard and saying it exists really, really forcefully doesn't, either.

If you went to your neighbors house and they asked you to join them in a satanic ritual you wouldn't because you don't believe in it. I'm not saying bowing your head is a satanic ritual but it is a ritual nevertheless... that I don't believe in....

This is known as the Straw Man logical fallacy, commonly found in highly charged, emotional debates where reason and intellect fail, where...

Person 1 has position X,

Person 2 disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar (and sometimes absurd) position Y,

Then Person 2 attacks the "Straw Man" position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

In this case, you use not merely any old garden variety generic religious ritual (like saying grace before a meal), but a full-on, emotional-grabbing, extreme example of the evil satanic ritual (cue ominous music). That's literally trying to use the exception to the rule, to try and disprove the rule. It's lame-o.

But using your absurdly ridiculous example, if the neighbors were my friends, and depending on what the ritual was, I might very well play along and participate if it was something I might do on my own or in another setting with others. If it was something as simple as bowing my head while they said a prayer to Satan, yeah, sure I would participate, because I don't believe in any of it anyway and it's no skin off my nose. It's not like bowing my head and mentally reciting baseball statistics is gonna make me a devil worshiper. If the ritual involved sacrificing a well-used and harried ferret on an altar, I'd politely decline, excuse myself and go back home.

 

[asjssl]

You wouldn't be bowing your head TO anything. You'd simply be bowing your head, like everybody else, out of simple civility and politeness, to make others feel more comfortable and at ease.

Sure, why not? No skin off my nose. And I have. I've been to other churches and synagogues, and like Leo said, I follow their lead out of respect. It doesn't do anyone any harm to me polite, you know.

No one is forcing you to do anything.


Prolly should have paid more attention, not only about how and why the Scouts were formed, but of the Oath and Promise you took (and still should know by heart).

Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

Scout Law
A Scout is:
Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful,
Friendly, Courteous, Kind,
Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty,
Brave, Clean, Reverent

The oath and law.. (Which I still do know by heart.)... to me are bullet points of ways to live a good and honest life with two references to God... my troop never mingled religion in Scouting.
Scouting to me was a great youthful activity with 0 religious overtones...
We were sponsored by the Lions Club and had are meeting at the fire department.... I know a lot of troops are sponsored by the local church and have their meeting at the church.. So I guess there would be a lot more religion in your troop if that was the case.. You don't bite the hand that feeds you...

I do understand what you are saying..so
Usually when I'm in a situation where call for me to bow my head I put my hands in my lap and close my eyes..
I don't make a scene.. So I am respectful and that aspect... I'm not a hole you think I am. But to be a hundred percent honest the older I get the more I have a problem with organized religion so I don't like to partake in the rituals...

 

[asjssl]

O

It's difficult to respect a right that doesn't even exist. Saying that it exists doesn't magically make it exist. Stomping your foot real hard and saying it exists really, really forcefully doesn't, either.

This is known as the Straw Man logical fallacy, commonly found in highly charged, emotional debates where reason and intellect fail, where...

Person 1 has position X,

Person 2 disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar (and sometimes absurd) position Y,

Then Person 2 attacks the "Straw Man" position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

In this case, you use not merely any old garden variety generic religious ritual (like saying grace before a meal), but a full-on, emotional-grabbing, extreme example of the evil satanic ritual (cue ominous music). That's literally trying to use the exception to the rule, to try and disprove the rule. It's lame-o.

But using your absurdly ridiculous example, if the neighbors were my friends, and depending on what the ritual was, I might very well play along and participate if it was something I might do on my own or in another setting with others. If it was something as simple as bowing my head while they said a prayer to Satan, yeah, sure I would participate, because I don't believe in any of it anyway and it's no skin off my nose. It's not like bowing my head and mentally reciting baseball statistics is gonna make me a devil worshiper. If the ritual involved sacrificing a well-used and harried ferret on an altar, I'd politely decline, excuse myself and go back home.

It is not ridiculous.. unfortunately I usually conform just as you said to make everybody at ease .. Under quiet protest though..

And for respecting a gays right to marry yes it is there right just because of religion says its wrong doesn't mean it wrong... I don't care what religions say they have the right to be happy just like everybody else its not like the heterosexual have done a real good job protecting the institution of marriage..

You know why religion really have a problem with gays is there unable to produce more children which means less people for the church .....follow the money... follow the money

 

[Turtle]

The oath and law to me are bullet points of ways to live a good and honest life with two references to God...

Three references, actually...
To do my duty to God and my country
be morally straight
is reverent

Scouting to me was a great youthful activity with 0 religious overtones...

Mine certainly had the overtones, especially the troops I was with that met in churches, but it wasn't the primary focus, of course.

I do understand what you are saying..so
Usually when I'm in a situation where call for me to bow my head I put my hands in my lap and close my eyes..

Excellent.

I'm not a hole you think I am.

There's almost no way you could be.

But to be a hundred percent honest the older I get the more I have a problem with organized religion so I don't like to partake in the rituals...

As people get older, especially as the end gets much closer, they usually tend to go one of two ways: more religious, or less religious. They see the end is near and suddenly try to make up for a lifetime of havin' fun and sinnin', or they see the end and know there's no point in carrying on the charade anymore.

God'll get me for that.

I don't partake (or participate, or whatever term you like) in something I don't agree with, because doing so would mean really, actually doing it, both in mind and body. But I can play along, for lack of a better phrase, so as to not create problems where problems needn't exist. I choose to not make it an issue, out of politeness and tolerance of other's wishes, out of respect for my fellow man. If somebody wants to say a prayer before a ballgame, I don't care. It's not likely to make me gay or anything. It's exactly the same as if they wanted to read a Shakespeare sonnet before a game, or do 30 seconds on the virtues of underwater basket weaving or zen and the art of motorcycle repair. I'll be polite and wait until they're done in any case. If I sit down at a full table to eat a meal, and someone at that table bows their head to say grace before the meal, I'm not gonna munch away while they do it, I'll sit there politely and wait for them to finish. It's not that difficult to do.

If someone wants to sit there in school and read a Bible, or Tom Clancy, or Steven King, I don't care. Let them. If a teacher wants to give a student a book, I don't care, even if it's the Bible. If the school system starts handing out Bibles that's another story, but an individual teacher to an individual student? No one should care about that.

I'm very much a Golden Rule kinda guy, and as soon as I start trying to impose my will onto others, I have to be prepared to accept the same in return. I'm not willing to accept that in return, therefore I'm not going to do to someone else what I refuse to allow them to do to me.

 

[Turtle]

It is not ridiculous.. unfortunately I usually conform just as you said to make everybody at ease .. Under quiet protest though..

You don't think comparing bowing your head in silent prayer to a satanic ritual isn't ridiculous? Okayeeee.

And for respecting a gays right to marry yes it is there right just because of religion says its wrong doesn't mean it wrong...

No, it's not their right. The only way it can be a right is if legislatures give it to them, which is inherently a tenuous right that can be just as easily taken away, or if they manage to redefine what marriage means. It is true that people, all people including gays, have a right to marry, but they don't have the right to marry someone of the same sex. A gay man, right now today, has exactly the same right to marry someone as I do. I can marry a woman, and so can he. I can't marry a man, and neither can he. That's about as equal as it can get. Anything beyind that becomes a redefinition of the term itself.

I don't care what religions say they have the right to be happy just like everybody else its not like the heterosexual have done a real good job protecting the institution of marriage..

What heterosexuals have done to the institution of marriage is irrelevant. Marriage is still, nevertheless, at its core a religious institution that has been civilized for the purposes of property and legal matters. If homosexuals want same-sex civil unions, fine, not a problem. But they don't. They want the "M" word because of what religion, and the Bible in particular says about homosexuality. They want to beat religion right where they live. They want to win.

And no, they don't have the right to be happy. No one has that right. Everyone has the right to pursue happiness, but they have no right to or guarantee of attaining it.

You know why religion really have a problem with gays is there unable to produce more children which means less people for the church .....follow the money... follow the money

Yeah, that must be it. :snort>

One need not be religious at all to know that homosexuality is not normal, is an affront to mankind, and an abomination to the survival of the species. The fact that homosexuals exist is perfectly natural, as it exists in nearly all species on the planet. Two headed calves are natural, but that doesn't mean it should be accepted and embraced as normal, because it's not. And neither is homosexuality.

 

[asjssl]

You don't think comparing bowing your head in silent prayer to a satanic ritual isn't ridiculous? Okayeeee.

No, it's not their right. The only way it can be a right is if legislatures give it to them, which is inherently a tenuous right that can be just as easily taken away, or if they manage to redefine what marriage means. It is true that people, all people including gays, have a right to marry, but they don't have the right to marry someone of the same sex. A gay man, right now today, has exactly the same right to marry someone as I do. I can marry a woman, and so can he. I can't marry a man, and neither can he. That's about as equal as it can get. Anything beyind that becomes a redefinition of the term itself.

What heterosexuals have done to the institution of marriage is irrelevant. Marriage is still, nevertheless, at its core a religious institution that has been civilized for the purposes of property and legal matters. If homosexuals want same-sex civil unions, fine, not a problem. But they don't. They want the "M" word because of what religion, and the Bible in particular says about homosexuality. They want to beat religion right where they live. They want to win.

And no, they don't have the right to be happy. No one has that right. Everyone has the right to pursue happiness, but they have no right to or guarantee of attaining it.

Yeah, that must be it. :snort>

One need not be religious at all to know that homosexuality is not normal, is an affront to mankind, and an abomination to the survival of the species. The fact that homosexuals exist is perfectly natural, as it exists in nearly all species on the planet. Two headed calves are natural, but that doesn't mean it should be accepted and embraced as normal, because it's not. And neither is homosexuality.

Your right ...they do have the right to pursue it...but how can they when the get stonewalled @ every corner...@ 1 time blacks and whites could not get married...it was taboo ...we have seen how foolish that is now...times change...but the religions have such a hold over this country..
And marriage is not religious if Elvis can marry you @ a drive thru..its just a legal contract between two parties..you can get legally married with 0 religious interaction...
Marriage is about love and devotion.. not religion..
And so what if it doesn't further our species...there are way tooo many of us to Begin with...
And yes...EVERYTHING comes to the all mighty $$$...even religion...
No members.. no $$ on Sunday in the cute little bowl...to collect TAX FREE

 

[skyraider]

Your right ...they do have the right to pursue it...but how can they when the get stonewalled @ every corner...@ 1 time blacks and whites could not get married...it was taboo ...we have seen how foolish that is now...times change...but the religions have such a hold over this country..
And marriage is not religious if Elvis can marry you @ a drive thru..its just a legal contract between two parties..you can get legally married with 0 religious interaction...
Marriage is about love and devotion.. not religion..
And so what if it doesn't further our species...there are way tooo many of us to Begin with...
And yes...EVERYTHING comes to the all mighty $$$...even religion...
No members.. no $$ on Sunday in the cute little bowl...to collect TAX FREE

You said there are way to many of us to begin with..........hmmmm, how many should we get rid of in your opinion. A guy in WW2 tried that. I think he was from Germany. You might want to read up on that one.

 

[asjssl]

You said there are way to many of us to begin with..........hmmmm, how many should we get rid of in your opinion. A guy in WW2 tried that. I think he was from Germany. You might want to read up on that one.

What ever...not what my point is...OK..don't you honestly think the world is overpopulated?? So if gays can't have kids what's the big deal?? Would not hurt to have a few less people..What the heck do you think I meant...advocate killing people??

 

[moose]

Well, it could be worst...like in Australia : School Answering Machine - YouTube

 

[LDB]

I like that answering machine message. I'm not sure it's for real but it certainly should be. It should be standard at all the schools in this country as well.

 

[asjssl]

Good message..

 

[aristotle]

Wouldn't it be best to have these decisions made at the local level; allowing local community standards to be respected. There have been longstanding legal battles in Kentucky concerning display of the Ten Commandments. Now, to appease the 2% or 3% of citizens who feign outrage, school districts cower.

One of my delivery stops every night is in Jackson, KY. This is the county seat of Breathitt County snuggled deep in the Appalachian Mountains of Eastern Kentucky. It's coal country and it's Bible country. It is an affront to many local citizens that their religious tenets cannot be displayed at their children's schools. The only feasible alternative to this suppression is the building of strong networks of private schools.

video: http:Breathitt schools ordered to remove Ten Commandment displays

 

[cheri1122]

It's someone else's standards that sent my [then] 5 year old daughter home in tears when several of her friends told her she will be burning in hell forever, because we weren't churchgoers. It left a deep and awful impression on an innocent child. I don't care for those standards at all, thank you.
And it's definitely someone else's standards that got the books I listed removed from the high school libraries, because I liked every one of them. [Except 'Beloved' - I'm drawing a blank on that one.] My daughter may or may not have liked them, but they made that choice by actually reading the book.

 

[aristotle]

Cheri, do you think it is the school's duty to protect children from having hurt feelings? There would be no end to that silliness. Are we to establish equivalency for every complaint? The Leftist pursuit of Utopia isn't practical or desirable.

If I had young children of school age, there is no way they would spend a single day in a public school given current conditions. Hopefully, a strong movement away from public schools will take root.

 

[RLENT]

Cheri, do you think it is the school's duty to protect children from having hurt feelings? There would be no end to that silliness.

I'm guessing that you are having a little trouble squaring the above with what's below:

One of my delivery stops every night is in Jackson, KY. This is the county seat of Breathitt County snuggled deep in the Appalachian Mountains of Eastern Kentucky. It's coal country and it's Bible country. It is an affront to many local citizens that their religious tenets cannot be displayed at their children's schools.

Awww ... you poor wuttle babies ...

This is the exact sorta thing that causes me to find Amurricka's homegrown Taliban so utterly revolting and repugnant ...

You can't just be happy with having religious freedom - you have to try and ram your particular flavor of sauce down the throats of everyone else ... via the State no less ...

And the last part of it is what exposes most of y'all as the complete hypocrites that you truly are: as (so-called) "conservatives" you are - apparently in theory only - supposedly for individual freedom, respect for individual civil rights, and against government intrusion into what ought to be a private matters of conscience ...

As to a move to private schools, I see nothing wrong with that ... but I suspect that for the worst among you that won't be good enough, since requires forgoing the imprimatur of the State and it's ability to compel ...

 

[davekc]

Your right ...they do have the right to pursue it...but how can they when the get stonewalled @ every corner...@ 1 time blacks and whites could not get married...it was taboo ...we have seen how foolish that is now...times change...but the religions have such a hold over this country..
And marriage is not religious if Elvis can marry you @ a drive thru..its just a legal contract between two parties..you can get legally married with 0 religious interaction...
Marriage is about love and devotion.. not religion..
And so what if it doesn't further our species...there are way tooo many of us to Begin with...
And yes...EVERYTHING comes to the all mighty $$$...even religion...
No members.. no $$ on Sunday in the cute little bowl...to collect TAX FREE

You do realize that many churches (not all) do quite a bit of charity work correct? For everyone one that is money driven (especially the magical tv ones) there are ones that do quite a bit of giving back.
You would be a amazed how many non religious/non believers show up for free food at several local churches. They aren't ask to join or put a penny in the plate. Nothing more than helping others out.
Work a "soup line" during the holidays and you just might have a different opinion of them whether you are religious or not.
Like anything, they have both good and bad.

 

[Dreamer]

You do realize that many churches (not all) do quite a bit of charity work correct? For everyone one that is money driven (especially the magical tv ones) there are ones that do quite a bit of giving back.
You would be a amazed how many non religious/non believers show up for free food at several local churches. They aren't ask to join or put a penny in the plate. Nothing more than helping others out.
Work a "soup line" during the holidays and you just might have a different opinion of them whether you are religious or not.
Like anything, they have both good and bad.

Yeah, would be nice to have all that money LOL....my lil church barely makes the mortgage and bills some months. Plus, like dave says, we have a food pantry that gives out food about 300 families a month....most of which will never darken our door.

So please PLEASE teach me how to get all that money.



Dale

 

[asjssl]

You do realize that many churches (not all) do quite a bit of charity work correct? For everyone one that is money driven (especially the magical tv ones) there are ones that do quite a bit of giving back.
You would be a amazed how many non religious/non believers show up for free food at several local churches. They aren't ask to join or put a penny in the plate. Nothing more than helping others out.
Work a "soup line" during the holidays and you just might have a different opinion of them whether you are religious or not.
Like anything, they have both good and bad.

I agree ..a lot do good things... It just makes me mad when I see those mega churches at all or what they're up to my ex goes to a megachurch in our town they have flat screen TVs all whole production and no food pantry

 

[davekc]

There is no question that some churches have to have an eye on the dollar. Especially if they are large or the TV evangelists. Takes quite a bit to keep those folks floating.
But in the real world, they represent a very small fraction of churches.
A character assassination of churches isn't needed any more than trashing a atheist.
They either don't/won't believe or will be convinced at a later time.
It really is that simple.

 

[Dreamer]

I agree ..a lot do good things... It just makes me mad when I see those mega churches at all or what they're up to my ex goes to a megachurch in our town they have flat screen TVs all whole production and no food pantry

Yes, you are right.. but please understand those mega-churches are the exception.

Most churches in America are the small, neighborhood churches of 50-200 people, many of whom have went there for years. In mine, for example, we have 3-4 generations of the same family.

They are not hate filled, nasty, money hungry people. They are loving, caring people who truly believe in God, and want to share His love. In my view, we're not cramming anything down someone's throat. Several people here have met me, and I sure hope not one has felt that way. In my view, we're just trying to give a warning. Surely you can understand that. If we truly believe what we say we do, then we MUST warn others of what is coming, or we will be failing.


Myself, I would never shove my beliefs on someone, but if asked, I will share wholeheartedly. Am I perfect? Heck no.. but I'm not the man I was just a few years ago. The man who nearly lost his family because of his actions and lifestyle.

If I was that teacher, and a student ASKED me for a Bible? Absolutely. I would give it.. because my belief is, if I refused, I might be responsible for someone not learning about God.

Now, if I pass them out UNASKED? Whole other story, and I could understand.



Mini-sermon over LOL.



Dale