Somalia famine: UN warns of 750,000 deaths

[RLENT]

I never said it was an "us vs. them" thing. Further, I never said it was all about religion, but that's certainly a factor.

No, you didn't explicitly ... but you tried (and failed) to construct argument that that was what it's all about .... (possibly because you desperately want it to so ...)

Simplistic ..... at best .... try studying a little history (farther back than the last 100 years or so), rather than just mis-guided ideologies.

If Somalis want to live in a Pre-Industrial world, so be it. Speak up for freedom of expression in Somalia and be met by a machete.

Same thing could largely be said of North Korea ..... except that it would be a bullet and not a machete.

Can you find the common thread running through most failed states?

It ain't Islam .....

List of countries by Failed States Index

If I were to guess, foreign interference by colonial powers in another country's domestic affairs, might be worth a shot ...

Of course, it isn't even as simplistic as that ....

 

[tbubster]

IMHO there are many problems that they face and giving them food with out troops to protect the food from being stolen by war lords is like throwing one bucket of water on a fire and expecting it to put out the fire.With out the UN sending in military troops not peace keeping troops there will be no change to what is happening over there.This was tried once look up "operation gothic serpent"Most know it as Black Hawk Down.We along with the other UN forces got our butts handed to us.Never mind the fact the people who we were there to help took up arms against the US/UN troops and sided with the warlords.This happens every year and its always the same.In a way the UN is supplying the war lords and their gangs with what they need to stay in control.The UN sends billions in food aid every year and the food is stolen by the warlords and sold on the black market.


IMHO as far as the US goes we have enough of our own problems to worry about first.Does not matter if its going after warlords or going after terrorist groups backed by other countrys it all leads to America looking like the worlds police.Yes it is sad that so many are dieing and going hungry yet at the same time this is not americas problem to fix.

 

[clcooper]

send me .29 cents a day and i will send you a picture of a child i got out of a magazine . and tell you that i used the .29 cents to feed that child . i will even write you letters telling you how moch your .29 cents a day has helped me eat every day .

give a man a fish he will eat for a day . teach him how to fish he can feed himself for life .

and what has been going on is they been given the fish . never tought how to fish .

wonder who is makeing the profit of these people . oh thats right you teach him how to fish they wont need you any more . so there goes your profit .

 

[greg334]

I never said it was an "us vs. them" thing. Further, I never said it was all about religion, but that's certainly a factor.

Well that seems to be the norm here, the anti-Muslim sentiment sometimes is construed as a patriotic thing and clouds a lot of the facts. When people come down to it, it is either an Us vs. Them or a crusading type attitude.

I don't see religion being anywhere near the factor with this subject, it has been going on since the early 90s after the start of the civil war and many times there are complex power plays going on not based on a sect of Islam or any religion for that matter but more or less tribal histories, as it is still in SA and other countries.

If Somalis want to live in a Pre-Industrial world, so be it.

I really don't think they do, a lot of them don't know what is going on while others want to survive. Many who have landed on our shores come under refugee status and don't always represent the best people or have a goal or dream other than to survive.

Speak up for freedom of expression in Somalia and be met by a machete.

True but that's true in China, Russia, parts of Europe - just be a holocaust denier and see what happens to you.

Not all cultures flourish. Can you find the common thread running through most failed states?

I wonder, it ain't Islam.

 

[Pilgrim]

Somalia is a failed state. Most Islamic states cannot provide basic necessities such as food, water, electricity, shelter, schools, medicine or humanitarian aid to their citizens at an acceptable level. Extreme poverty reflects the extreme ideology which refuses to embrace modernity. The warring tribes and factions are too busy killing each other to make even the smallest steps toward progress. I do not know the average life expectancy in Somalia. Surely, it is a short and difficult life.

There might not be a single characteristic cause of all failed states, but one common thread in MOST failed states might be corruption and/or incompetence at the head-of-state level resulting in the maladies spelled out above

Even if Somalia was a verdant Garden of Eden, their root problems are systemic. Without fundamental change to the system, no advance in everyday life should be expected. The prolonged drought only increases the hardship. What an awful existence to be born into. If there were any easy answers, Somalia's difficulties would have been remedied long ago.

*** A cursory Google search reveals average life expectancy in Somalia is about 50 years. 48 years for males and 52 years of life for females, on average.

I never said it was an "us vs. them" thing. Further, I never said it was all about religion, but that's certainly a factor. If Somalis want to live in a Pre-Industrial world, so be it. Speak up for freedom of expression in Somalia and be met by a machete. Not all cultures flourish. Can you find the common thread running through most failed states?

Just an observation: seven out of the world's top ten failed states have over 50% muslim population. Since seventy percent usually qualifies as most, the Islamic factor would qualify as A common thread in the most significant failed states.

2010 Failed States Index - Interactive Map and Rankings | Foreign Policy

Of course the above article was written in 2010 so perhaps Libya, Syria and maybe Egypt have moved into the top ten or fifteen on a more current list.

Another interesting link, just for informational purposes:
News - Map of the Muslim World

 

[twe2011]

I fee bad for them...but we have to fix America before we can help anyone else. Otherwise we will be in the same both eventually.

 

[twe2011]

Oh I got compassion...
when their greedy corrupt governments stop their evil ways...when they learn birth control....how many aide workers for years and years and billions of dollars, handing out BC and speaking with them....

Yes they are human and no less pain is felt in watching your child die and nothing you can do for them....except maybe not have them to begin with....a 60 year drought..it is not like they did not bring them into this world knowing the hardship they would face....

Very well quoted...I did not go out and have more children because of common sense...it makes no sense to run around having kids unless you can see a good future. Otherwise, I consider it child abuse from the parents to bring them into failure/suffer. The parents need to scrafice themselves for their children!

 

[skyraider]

U all have missed the boat. Send Obama, Po lousy n Reed. Obama can tell them they need jobs and P n R can explain free health care to them. I dont like to see starving zillions dying either, but Somalia is a lost country due to POLITICS and those dumbazz Warlords. Oh, but they do have Pirates getting millions of bucks, now where is that money anyway? I will have to give those Pirates credit, they are running around in 20 ft outboards with maybe 100 hp that may cost 2000 bucks and they are tying up world Navies that are worth billions. Hows that working out for you modern world? I need more coffee...............................

 

[greg334]

I think both of you need to understand that in order to have a failed state status for Somalia, you have to have a state. The country has been in a civil war for almost 30 years and it seems that it would have split over a couple times if it wasn't for Ethiopia.

BUT with that said, Islam is not the cause of any failure for any country as much as Christianity is not the cause for the failures for any country. You both put this religious spin on it and than assume that Islam is the failure for it because of the repression and other violent acts that are associated with it. BUT I have to remind you that religion is the excuse, not the cause of many violent things that happen across the world.

Let's look at the make up of the African portion of those top 10 for a second.

Chad - majority is Muslim but not by much

Sudan - majority is Muslim by a lot but also there is a strong Christian presence

Zimbabwe - majority is Christan by a large amount

Democratic Republic of Congo - Almost the entire country is Christan

Central African Republic - Most are Christian but only less than 15% are Muslim

Guinea - just over 50% is Muslim but there are other religions there, like 30% Christianity that are influencing the politics of the country

BUT if you want to know what the real common thread is with all of them - they were colonies of either England or France.

The best example of corruption and greed is Haiti, this is the example we need to use when we talk about failed states.

 

[Pilgrim]

BUT with that said, Islam is not the cause of any failure for any country as much as Christianity is not the cause for the failures for any country. You both put this religious spin on it and than assume that Islam is the failure for it because of the repression and other violent acts that are associated with it. BUT I have to remind you that religion is the excuse, not the cause of many violent things that happen across the world.

My post had no spin at all - it pointed out the fact that in 7 of the top 10 failed states the population was over 50% muslim according to the joint project done by Foreign Policy and Fund For Peace. However, that brings up a question based on the opposite perspective: how many countries with a Muslim population greater than 50% are listed as "Stable" or "Most Stable"? Without my reading glasses I see two - Oman and UAE.

Let's look at the make up of the African portion of those top 10 for a second.
Chad - majority is Muslim but not by much
Sudan - majority is Muslim by a lot but also there is a strong Christian presence
Zimbabwe - majority is Christan by a large amount
Democratic Republic of Congo - Almost the entire country is Christan
Central African Republic - Most are Christian but only less than 15% are Muslim
Guinea - just over 50% is Muslim but there are other religions there, like 30% Christianity that are influencing the politics of the country
BUT if you want to know what the real common thread is with all of them - they were colonies of either England or France.

Another "real common thread" with all of the above countries is that they are African.
That being said, are we to assume if they had been left to their own devices undisturbed by European colonization they would be in better condition today? How many stable countries do we see listed on the continent of Africa?
2010 Failed States Index - Interactive Map and Rankings | Foreign Policy

The best example of corruption and greed is Haiti, this is the example we need to use when we talk about failed states.

Amen - they're the gold standard.

 

[skyraider]

My post had no spin at all - it pointed out the fact that in 7 of the top 10 failed states the population was over 50% muslim according to the joint project done by Foreign Policy and Fund For Peace. However, that brings up a question based on the opposite perspective: how many countries with a Muslim population greater than 50% are listed as "Stable" or "Most Stable"? Without my reading glasses I see two - Oman and UAE.
Another "real common thread" with all of the above countries is that they are African.
That being said, are we to assume if they had been left to their own devices undisturbed by European colonization they would be in better condition today? How many stable countries do we see listed on the continent of Africa?
2010 Failed States Index - Interactive Map and Rankings | Foreign Policy
Amen - they're the gold standard.

Unless there is a miracle in the peoples thinking in many parts of Africa, leave them alone, we cant afford it for one thing and the do gooders aint going there, they just like to stir up crap and make u send ur money and who knows if it gets there, I dont. Maybe some of the African Americans will go and send their money, yea rite. Lets see, Jessie Jackson , is he there, I dont think so.Yep the Rainbow Boys. Im in a mood.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

For me..Ronald MacDonald House Charities, Dave Thomas Foundation for Adopted kids or Tim Hortons Summer Camp Program....all cover admin costs and the kids get the benefit of your money at 100%...and it helps right here in the US of A

 

[layoutshooter]

I have only met 2 or 3 African-Americans in my entire 60+ years on this earth. I have met untold numbers of Americans of African Decent. Many of those don't wish too, or are unable too, help Americans of their own decent let alone those in a country they have, for the most part, never seen or have no ties with.

Be VERY careful when the UN says something needs done. There is likely an agenda behind their actions that is not good.

 

[Pilgrim]

With football season just starting, one wonders how many millionaire athletes of African descent are there in this country? How about entertainers, rap stars, etc? Considering the amounts of disposable income they have, wonder how much they've sent to places like Darfur, Somalia and all the other African countries sending us pictures of pitiful starving waifs covered with flies? Maybe their financial advisers have more sense than to waste money on corrupt UN projects.

 

[twe2011]

I have only met 2 or 3 African-Americans in my entire 60+ years on this earth. I have met untold numbers of Americans of African Decent. Many of those don't wish too, or are unable too, help Americans of their own decent let alone those in a country they have, for the most part, never seen or have no ties with.

Be VERY careful when the UN says something needs done. There is likely an agenda behind their actions that is not good.

That does make you wonder....what is their agenda behind it?

 

[twe2011]

With football season just starting, one wonders how many millionaire athletes of African descent are there in this country? How about entertainers, rap stars, etc? Considering the amounts of disposable income they have, wonder how much they've sent to places like Darfur, Somalia and all the other African countries sending us pictures of pitiful starving waifs covered with flies? Maybe their financial advisers have more sense than to waste money on corrupt UN projects.

Amen to this statement...somehow when when we do help...it turns to be our fault that they are failing or when they do rise on their feet, we get kicked. Reminds me of something on those shows about animals obsessions, eventually they will eat you.

 

[RLENT]

My post had no spin at all .....

Too frickin' funny ..... you don't even seem to be able to recognize it when you do it - either that, or you actually do (recognize it) ... and are simply just disingenuous in being unwilling to admit it.

I'd prefer to believe it's the former, but ..... well, this isn't the first post of yours that I've read .... and since they are almost invariably entirely spin of one form or another .... well ...

Maybe the rapid circular rotation is just so disorienting that you simply can't focus .....

FWIW, here's the spin:

A post asks: "what is the common thread running through most failed states ?"

For any answer to be valid for that question, and it's premise of there actually being a (single) common thread that does run through most failed states, it would have to address the matter from the point of looking at all failed states ...... and then determining the common thread that exists in most of them.

Otherwise, one is addressing a different question and premise.

Factually, there are many "common threads" that exist in all failed states - stuff like: most people there drink water and sleep at night, they wear some form of clothes, they breathe, etc., etc. ..... ad infinitum ....

So it was a somewhat simplistic and silly question to begin with (probably why the author avoided answering it himself and instead decided to go with the "wink, wink, nudge, nudge") .... but I really do understand: there is an agenda to be propagated at any cost, and religious fervor knows no bounds ....

FWIW, the mere existence of something (like a religion) does not necessarily automatically rise to the level of relevance, and commonality certainly does not equal causation .....

So what do you do ?

You proceed to give us Pilgrim's Top Ten Failed States .... based on just 10 .... out of 35 total countries, which are in the "Alert" status - the most dire, in terms of being a failed state (this doesn't include an additional 99 countries which fall under the lesser ranking of "Warning").... doing some really weird mental gymnastics apparently, that attempts to somehow "validate" the original premise posed by your Greek friend, by using your own "data filtering" to select out only the data that appear to support it, tossing the rest - and totally ignoring the fact that it can't possibly validate it, or even address it - since it ignores over 2/3rds of the data set that would be required to do so.

What a crack up !

Noooooo ..... that's not spin ......

Now, let's just examine all of this a little further:

Of course the above article was written in 2010 ......

So - to further impugn any claim you might have to be an "honest broker", you use outdated data (2010 vs. 2011) ...... now I really have to wonder why that was ..... since the 2011 rankings were available on the foreignpolicy.com website that you chose to cite - as well as a number of other places. In fact, I linked them in an earlier post.

Could it be that there is an agenda which needs certain "facts" to support it ?

Perhaps if we use the rankings from the 2011 Failed States Index, we can see why you are as motivated as you are to use the 2010 rankings. Using that data and applying it as you did (but corrected for accuracy), this is what we get (leaving aside the "most significant" aspect and whatever the **** means for the moment ):

"Just an observation: five out of the world's top ten failed states have over 50% muslim population. Since fifty percent usually DOES NOT qualify as most, the Islamic factor would NOT qualify as A common thread in the most significant failed states."

And moving along in a similar vein, a further observation could be made as follows:

"Four out of the world's top ten failed states have over 50% Christian population. Since forty percent usually DOES NOT qualify as most, the Christian factor would NOT qualify as A common thread in the most significant failed states."

IOW, we have rough parity, vis-a-vis Muslim as compared to Christian.

Thus, from the above, it would appear that you are, in fact, a man with an "answer", who is simply in search of the "correct" question - and selectively culls and uses the data that best fits the "question" you wish to construct.

Yeah .... there's no spin there ......

 

[witness23]

 

[Pilgrim]

Too frickin' funny ..... you don't even seem to be able to recognize it when you do it - either that, or you actually do (recognize it) ... and are simply just disingenuous in being unwilling to admit it.

I'd prefer to believe it's the former, but ..... well, this isn't the first post of yours that I've read .... and since they are almost invariably entirely spin of one form or another .... well ...

Maybe the rapid circular rotation is just so disorienting that you simply can't focus .....

FWIW, here's the spin:

A post asks: "what is the common thread running through most failed states ?"

For any answer to be valid for that question, and it's premise of there actually being a (single) common thread that does run through most failed states, it would have to address the matter from the point of looking at all failed states ...... and then determining the common thread that exists in most of them.

Otherwise, one is addressing a different question and premise.

Factually, there are many "common threads" that exist in all failed states - stuff like: most people there drink water and sleep at night, they wear some form of clothes, they breathe, etc., etc. ..... ad infinitum ....

So it was a somewhat simplistic and silly question to begin with (probably why the author avoided answering it himself and instead decided to go with the "wink, wink, nudge, nudge") .... but I really do understand: there is an agenda to be propagated at any cost, and religious fervor knows no bounds ....

FWIW, the mere existence of something (like a religion) does not necessarily automatically rise to the level of relevance, and commonality certainly does not equal causation .....

So what do you do ?

You proceed to give us Pilgrim's Top Ten Failed States .... based on just 10 .... out of 35 total countries, which are in the "Alert" status - the most dire, in terms of being a failed state (this doesn't include an additional 99 countries which fall under the lesser ranking of "Warning").... doing some really weird mental gymnastics apparently, that attempts to somehow "validate" the original premise posed by your Greek friend, by using your own "data filtering" to select out only the data that appear to support it, tossing the rest - and totally ignoring the fact that it can't possibly validate it, or even address it - since it ignores over 2/3rds of the data set that would be required to do so.

What a crack up !

Noooooo ..... that's not spin ......

Now, let's just examine all of this a little further:


So - to further impugn any claim you might have to be an "honest broker", you use outdated data (2010 vs. 2011) ...... now I really have to wonder why that was ..... since the 2011 rankings were available on the foreignpolicy.com website that you chose to cite - as well as a number of other places. In fact, I linked them in an earlier post.

Could it be that there is an agenda which needs certain "facts" to support it ?

Perhaps if we use the rankings from the 2011 Failed States Index, we can see why you are as motivated as you are to use the 2010 rankings. Using that data and applying it as you did (but corrected for accuracy), this is what we get (leaving aside the "most significant" aspect and whatever the **** means for the moment ):

"Just an observation: five out of the world's top ten failed states have over 50% muslim population. Since fifty percent usually DOES NOT qualify as most, the Islamic factor would NOT qualify as A common thread in the most significant failed states."

And moving along in a similar vein, a further observation could be made as follows:

"Four out of the world's top ten failed states have over 50% Christian population. Since forty percent usually DOES NOT qualify as most, the Christian factor would NOT qualify as A common thread in the most significant failed states."

IOW, we have rough parity, vis-a-vis Muslim as compared to Christian.

Thus, from the above, it would appear that you are, in fact, a man with an "answer", who is simply in search of the "correct" question - and selectively culls and uses the data that best fits the "question" you wish to construct.

Yeah .... there's no spin there ......

There you go again - putting YOUR SPIN on MY POST, reading all kinds of concocted transgressions (based on your values) into what I wrote even though nothing of the sort was stated or implied. As usual, the entire exercise is woven around your trademark petty ad-hominem cheap shots that were so refreshingly absent from this forum during your most recent banishment to the penalty box. Fortunately no one else that participates here makes these kinds of posts, and for good reason - they have a basic understanding of civility and decorum that you obviously lack, as evidenced by your back-to-back suspensions. I confess to being mystified as to why the last one wasn't permanent, unless there are those who find some Jerry Springer-like entertainment value in your crass, juvenile outbursts that always seem to drift away from the subject of the thread and into the area of personal insults.

One final point: if anyone wants to do an in-depth analysis of all sixty failed nation states and post their findings, be my guest. This would be good subject matter for a doctoral thesis, and doing a thorough job would easily take months. For obvious reasons, most everyone in this thread was concentrating on the worst examples of failed states rather than trying to include the not-so-failed states that begin to appear beyond the top 10-15. It so happens that among the worst, most of them have a majority Muslim population and most are in Africa. Maybe in the coming years this will change, but these two facts apply to the 2010 data that was being discussed; I pointed these out without editorial comment since I felt confident that would be supplied by someone else.

 

[RLENT]

There you go again .... blah, blah, blah .......

So ..... in other words: ya got pretty much nuthin' ......

Got it