Should a teacher be allowed to carry a gun?

[Dreamer]

Anyone else seen this on the news? There is a battle going on in Oregon, where a teacher, (who has a concealed carry permit) wants to carry her gun at school. She feels threatened by an ex husband, and also worries about a Columbine style incident.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of teachers packing, but then again, I think if a teacher at Columbine, or Virginia Tech had been carrying, perhaps those tragedies could have been averted.

Same thing as allowing Pilots to carry.. whole other issue, similar reasons.

Thoughts?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300180,00.html


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[LDB]

My only reservation would be that she has to have it in her actual possession and control at all times, or else securely locked away. It couldn't be in her purse or elsewhere that anyone else could get to it. For that matter, with a valid CHL, I and anyone else should also be free to carry in a school or any other location. I can't imagine anyone not wanting someone qualified and prepared to be there in the event of a Columbine situation. I'd certainly love to hear the thinking of anyone who doesn't want a qualified and capable person to be armed at a school as to the what and why of their reasoning.

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[are12]

<<< I can't imagine anyone not wanting someone qualified and prepared to be there in the event of a Columbine situation. >>>

Who is qualified to carry a gun? Look at what just happened in WI, with the off duty deputy sheriff, he passed his background check too and was supposed to be qualified. Me, personally, I think he was too young for that position.

Is this teacher qualified, just because she has a permit and practices with her gun all the time? She may be just another psychotic person that is walking around with a gun!

Don't get me wrong, I am not against guns. I grew up in a house of hunters and most of my brother's are into guns - my oldest brother has a permit to carry and you never see him without one. My younger son even has a permit to carry but I don't think he should.

My thing is, in today's society, how can you tell if someone should be qualified?

 

[LDB]

Well, if you want a 100% guarantee then you can't know if someone is qualified. In that case, we have to go back to the system of unarmed sheep waiting for the slaughter. If you want 99.997% then you can. I know I'm qualified as far as the background check and attitude. I'd have to also pass whatever proficiency level was required to carry in schools. I'm not sure I could pass airline level, at least without more practice and probably some more training with my friend Tim. My point is, we have the potential to add far more than the proposed 100,000 new police officers that never materialized, and at no additional cost.

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[greg334]

Leo,
As much as I want to say this is one solution but it is not. I know that a concealed weapon permit is rather easy to get on the skills side but the problem is when does one know when to use a gun and when do they need to run?

The reason I say this is what I see in teachers today is about the same in people in general, they are not able to handle any situation that would force them to use a weapon and walk away from it still intact. A lot of the soldiers today who are forced to face reality and come home all messed up because they never had to deal with situation in their life that is tragic or normal for us who grew up in the 60's and 70's and you can easily apply this to the a lot of college kids who are becoming teachers. The military has found that training will not fill that gap and it only has to come from the up bringing of the people – which if you look around is part of the problem with violence to begin with.

With that said, can you image the stupid lawsuits that would spin off because of this, I know that the first time the teacher pulls that weapon, the lawyers will be there claiming that it caused PTSD in all the students in the entire school.

There is no solution with this issue other then getting rid of Public school and forcing parents to deal with their kids. I also contend that military service will help a lot of kids who are at risk that will give them the direction they need and help them focus on their lives. Most of the people don’t get the draft thing but I think it helps a lot to force some things to happen.

Also just from my point of view, it is funny that if the Virginia tech event happened when people would stand up and do something like in the 60’s, do you think the only one that would try to stop the guy was a holocaust survivor?

And Virginia tech didn’t happen to children, it happened to adults – I wish people would get this straight.

 

[LDB]

Permits are fairly easy to get. That's why I said there would have to be minimum skills tests to determine the level of the permit. The higher the skill set the more places open to carry with the highest level allowing carry on airlines, in government buildings etc..

I know many many people with permits from my time working in that industry. They come in all shapes, sizes, flavors and temperaments. By that I mean some would carry at a school and some would not. They know their limitations as far as defending themselves and others. I would carry anywhere my level authorized. I have no problem with the possibility of putting down a problem whether the problem is 15 or 55. It's their choice, not mine.

I don't see the guns being brought out on a regular basis. If those opting to carry are smart, they will never be known as one who carries. They also won't produce the weapon unless Columbine starts. In that case, do you really think it's going to affect the students any differently? I believe if the situation is ended with hopefully zero or at worst 2 or 3 deaths instead of a dozen isn't that a better outcome?

I'm sorry but being unprepared and waiting on the police, who incidentally have no absolute requirement to intervene but that's a different thread, is not an acceptable option. Becoming a casualty when one has the ability to do otherwise is unacceptable.

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[greg334]

"I'm sorry but being unprepared and waiting on the police, who incidentally have no absolute requirement to intervene but that's a different thread, is not an acceptable option. Becoming a casualty when one has the ability to do otherwise is unacceptable."

Leo,
I agree with all of what you said but re-reading your statement forces me to realize that we have been conditioned for more than several generations that the only solution is to call the police, they are the ultimate protectors (which they are not any where close).

We have become a soft nation, a nation that looks at events and turn them into so bad of a situation that we can't see where the fault lies.

I would say conditioning kids to deal with reality is the first and biggest step, and getting ... forcing the parents to be accountable for their kids in more ways than one.

With that all said, the issue for me is I can not trust new teachers to be able to determine a situation where force is needed while at the same time we have a union and school system that force the teachers to take to a passive approach.

 

[LDB]

I've had the great pleasure and privilege to train with and observe the shooting of a national champion level shooter. I've known many many shooters at various levels. I am confident that anyone who has trained to the proficiency level that would be required has the mental conditioning to go along with it whether a rookie in the classroom or an old pro. That said, although I will never agree it's correct, I would not abandon the idea if there was a requirement that any teachers opting in must have a minimum of 1 or 2 years in the classroom. I know that will delay a few excellent people but better delayed than forbidden.

I agree we are too soft as a nation. I'm fortunate to be a Texan born to depression survivors who know good from evil. I've been taught not to start trouble and to walk away from it whenever possible. When that isn't possible then you deal with it as effectively as possible. That's what this option would allow.

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[cheri1122]

Leo makes excellent sense, but I'm having some trouble with Greg's suggestion that teachers be replaced by parents.
Teachers have demonstrated a desire, for whatever reason, to be teachers, and they've gone to college to obtain the credentials to be teachers. They have put years, and a lot of money, into the effort.
Parents, on the other hand, have done nothing more to achieve the title than an act that in some cases, they don't even remember (or don't want to remember) performing. The recent thread about an unplanned pregnancy pointed out that sometimes, the 'parents' aren't even the actual participants. Any day's newspaper will provide examples of parents who shouldn't be.
No, I can't agree that teachers should be replaced by parents at all.

 

[greg334]

Cheri,
The solution is not the replacing the teacher per se, it is meant to say that we need our teachers to be teachers not cooks, referees, watch dogs, psychologists and baby sitters. The parents have been removed out of the picture and replaced by the public school system and this is not the 100% of the fault of the parents but the schools themselves.

My sister is a devoted teacher and she tells me all kinds of cr*p that she has to do to maintain her class, it drives her up a wall - and she graduated from one of the most liberal teaching schools in the nation. She like a lot of other teachers want to teach but can't and they all agree the best solution is vouchers, charter schools, private schools and parental involvement. In her school district, the administrators are almost equal to the teachers in body count - what school district needs a breakfast/lunch administrator with a staff?

Does this make sense?

 

[cheri1122]

Teachers who want more parental involvement ought really to be careful what they wish for - ask the coaches, who get a lot of parental involvement, some of it pretty ugly...
What they want, of course, is the involvement of the GOOD kind of parents, but those parents are already involved - the parents who aren't interested in their childrens education most likely wouldn't be an asset to the educational process anyway, no?

 

[arkjarhead]

Well there has been another school shooting today. In Cleveland,OH.

 

[LDB]

I've been listening to reports. Apparently the shooter was 14 and killed himself fairly soon after starting his shooting. It could have been far worse than it was. It possibly could have been less tragic than it was as well, with an appropriately prepared adult on site.

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[cheri1122]

The biggest benefit of permitting the carrying of concealed weapons is that whether there is an appropriately prepared adult onsite or not doesn't matter - that there MIGHT be is a powerful deterrent.

 

[greg334]

Cheri, the other side of that coin is what wouldn't stop someone who is h*ll bent on killing people at a school to go in shooting first?

 

[LDB]

Isn't the pretty much how they do it? I believe it would deter far more than it would instigate. If not, then why aren't at least some of these sprees in police stations? They certainly have at least as many detractors and enemies as the evil d-hall and suspension/expulsion issuing educators.

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[arkjarhead]

If the students knew what teacher was packing then that teacher would become a hard target. Meaning the shooter would most likely try to take that person out first. I was in the military during 9/11 and after that we were told not to wear our uniforms while flying home for this reason. In theory if we had been in uniform and the plane was hijacked chances are that would be the first person to die. If you were civvies and a cap to cover up the hair cut you blend in. Then maybe you can have the chance to do something. The point I'm making is no one should know exactly which teacher or teachers are packing heat except those teachers and the principal. Not even the unarmed teachers should know. This would keep anyone from becoming a hard target. Remember the slogan you learned in history class from WW2? Loose lips sink ships.

 

[LDB]

Yes, that's part of what I meant by keeping it on their person. There are innumerable places I've carried where nobody knew, including my daughters schools. Part of the training/qualification system would be avoiding becoming a hard target.

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[terryandrene]

If a gun toting teacher with a permit had shot that 14 year old before he had a chance to off himself, she'd be facing a life of misery, in and out of the courtroom. Criminal and civil suits would follow her forever.

 

[LDB]

That's probably so, unfortunately. It's a chance I'd have to take if I were present and prepared.

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