Serious Question on Cummins Engine

[eah24fan]

Hello all my name is Allen Hall. I drive for Panther. My wife Bernie has been on here for a while now. This is my first time posting so bear with me. LOL

I wanted to put this in the General section so it would be seen better. I have been driving trucks for over 20 years now and been in Expediting for 14 years.
We just picked up a new truck for an owner about a month ago. IT has the Cummins ISC 330 engine in a Freightliner M2106 straight truck. We have driven several different trucks with different engines and set ups. We have had a problem since picking this truck up with the engine fan kicking on and off every 30 seconds or so. We thought it might be a coolant issue as this truck was used for the truck shows the past couple of years and has been sitting in between. So we finally got them to drain all the coolant and flush it and put all new back in. This didn't help. They also replaced one pressure switch. This didn't help either. When this fan kicks in and out it causes the A/C to kick in and out as well. Also causes our fuel mileage to drop from around 9 down to about 4. We have had this truck into several different shops and now even had it back here in Columbus,OH to FYDA where it was bought and they keep testing it and telling us that this engine fan coming on like this is normal. This is not even a brand new truck as it was built in late 07'.
Am wondering if anyone else on here has this same type of set up and having any similar problems? The check engine light keeps coming on as well and they say there is nothing there either. This engine also has one of those new fangled emission regeneration systems too which does not work with the switch on the dash. They have had to force regen it a couple times now and keep telling us we just don't know how to do it. LOL Any help greatly apprec.

 

[greg334]

This may be offensive but when a service shop tells me that the the check engine light keeps coming on as well and they say there is nothing there, I take the truck somewhere else. These guys are not doing their job.

Now with that said, I would take it to a Cummings engine dealer and only them. Tell them exactly what's going on and they can check it. They could even put it on a dyno and see the errors as they happen.

The only time the coolant system will cause an issue will be when it runs hot. This sounds like an a/c problem and the shop can turn off the fan on high pressure setting. If they replaced a switch, more or less they may not have replaced the dryer and check anything else.

 

[astikhossw]

So what did the owner of the truck say when you told him.

 

[eah24fan]

Well a couple of things in response here. The owner has been working with us side by side on this issue. He raised heck with the dealer last night again.

Greg we have taken it to several different shops and they are all saying the same thing. Even took it to a Cummins dealer and they won't touch it saying the radiator and cooling system is not covered under the engine warranty.

Had it out with the shop foreman again last night and the owner is going to have us wait here in Columbus,OH till Monday morning when the owner of the dealership is here. Something similar happened on his other truck he bought from this place and it wasn't until he threatened suing by lemon law that after putting $8,000 of his own money into it they finally found the problem.

 

[greg334]

Here is the thing, I think that no one is actually trying to find out the problem and spending the money but rather shifting blame. The owner shouldn't be having it out with the shop manager but asking for advice, if nothing calling Cummins and doing the same.

If you had it at Cummins and they said this or that is not covered, it shows me that someone told them what the problem maybe, not handing them the truck and saying "the fan kicks on without any reason" and let them find the problem.

I went through this exercise back in March, with a truck that seemed to have fuel problems. The truck cost the owner $39k in lost revenue and repairs but the actual repair was $860 that took 6 hours to fix. After a week of losing fuel mileage, the driver told the owner that he needs to get it to the shop. After the driver told the write up people at the shop what he thought the problem was, they only looked for that. The driver got it down the road, a trailer hooked and it was still having issues. The driver went back, b*tched at the shop manager and then the truck went through the troubleshooting of the same issue that the driver told them he thought it was - not what the problem was. The owner got involved, threated to sue and so on but nothing was resolved except stupid egos getting in the way. When I got into it, I told the shop owner that I would like to see it put on the dyno at our expense and run diags with it under load - three minutes on the dyno they found the issue and it was on the road by the next morning. The dyno cost was waived because it got the owner off the back of the shop.

 

[Doggie Daddy]

Something similar happened on his other truck he bought from this place and it wasn't until he threatened suing by lemon law that after putting $8,000 of his own money into it they finally found the problem.

I didn't think that the lemon law covered commercial trucks,also if your fleet owner had problems enough with the dealer that he was threatening a lawsuit, why would he do business with them again?

Definition of insanity, "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

 

[ozoner]

I'm not a mechanic but I am staying at a Holiday Inn Express..

Did everyone miss the comment in the 1st post that indicated the ac also comes on whenever the fan comes on? If you turn on the ac manually, isn't the fan SUPPOSED to start? Maybe the real issue is a problem in the ac system and it's turning on/off causing the fan to start, or a wiring short somewhere, or a bad ground... Or with the engine light coming on, maybe it's a defective ecm, but that shouldn't cycle the ac. I'd bet on a wiring or ac issue causing the ac and fan to cycle, putting an unexpected and repeated mechanical & electrical load cycling on and off, and causing the engine light to come on without any specific code...

Good luck finding this..

 

[greg334]

isn't the fan SUPPOSED to start?

No. The way it works is the A/C is controlled by the ECM, and there is an option to have the fan kick on when there is excessive high pressure (high condenser temps). The fan should not kick when it is turned on.

I would like to know how the driver knows that the A/C is engaged?

The suggestion I made is stop playing the blame game, get an hours worth of dyno time to find the problem. The dyno will put the engine under load while the 'driver' can show the tech how to repeat the problem. IF the tech is smart, he is logging the engine data and when there is a "check engine" light, it should pop up in the log and software. Once the tech can see the issue, then he/she can fix it. IF there is a check engine light and nothing coming out of the truck's ecm into the computer that's monitoring it, then it can be an ECM issue.

 

[eah24fan]

Well we are the drivers and we have been driving trucks for over 20 years. I also have some experience in diesel repair myself. But with it being under warranty they only want to do certain things. Cummins won't touch it period. And the reason we know the A/C goes out is cause when the fan kicks on the A/C blows warm then when the fan kicks back off it gets cold again. Try doing this on a coast to coast run. We also believe there is possibly a short somewhere as well and only does it at certain times. But as is the case with most things mechanical it won't do it when the mechanics are looking at it. As for the owner going back to the same dealer he had problems with before I can't help that one. LOL This dealer we have seen mess over several people. I am not the type to name names but it is getting old real quick. And no we aren't waiting to talk to a shop guy on Monday morning. The owner is getting the head boss of the whole dealership involved again and already have got the corp people involved out in OR too.

 

[ConfusedMuse]

well make sure you document names, times, response etc, and lay your duckies all in a row when you talk to Corporate. Of course it could just be that it is a Cummins ISC engine. You should have gotten a real engine. Take a page from most major fleets what kind of engine do they USE?
Hey! how many miles on the engine,truck? We don't do our trucks any favors letting them sit by the way. perhaps your gear sprocket slipped on the cam shaft, it could be a myriad of problems from inexperinced drivers driving it. Best of luck

 

[greg334]

OK I did make a few calls and got an answer for you.

This is from Cummins "we will never turn a customer away"

This is from Freightliner, someone who works on the multiplexed wiring systems "this sounds like it is a Bulkhead Module issue and the shop is not doing their job"

IF you want an detailed explanation of how it works and interacts with the engine, I can give you that however Freightliner said any freightliner shop could see what's going on by simply running the software they have and running diags on the bulkhead module. They said replacing parts (which he got a good laugh off of the switch being replaced) shows that they didn't do the work to find the real cause of the problems.

Cummins said it depends on what part of the cooling system that is being talked about, they cover engine related issues but not chassis related issues and without a ECM dump to see if there was overheating, then it could be a few hundred issues that cause the problems. Cummins suggested that they look at the engine ECM, not have freightliner look at it, so to see what is in memory and see if the fan times for the A/C need to be adjusted.

So there you go - a serious answer.

 

[eah24fan]

Thank you for the answers from both Cummins and Frieghtliner guys. We had it here in Columbus all day again and they ran it on all their software computers and linked up with ones from OR and still can't find anything. They are waiting now on the eingineers from Corp in OR to see if they want to flash the whole computer system. They checked the ECM and everything. There is def. a bug in it somewhere as it did everything we said it was when they test drove it. LOL I think this thing is just possessed.
As for the other guy talking about other drivers in it. There has not been other drivers in it. It is a new truck and we are the first drivers of it.

 

[xracer]

Had the same problem. I put two shut off valves on the water lines going to the heater core and sleeper heat and air system on my M-1. One line is 3/4 the other is 5/8. The fan quit running all the time and the AC will run you out since it don't have all that hot water running through heater cores. I know it sound weird but it works. This was suggested for me to do by the guy who works on my truck. They are cheep and can be bought at most any auto parts store. There is also a fan switch sensor located on the a/c dryer which on my truck mounted on the frame rail near the right front tire. They are cheep and be bought at freightliner. You want lose your freon if you choose to change it. Good luck

 

[ConfusedMuse]

We thought it might be a coolant issue as this truck was used for the truck shows the past couple of years and has been sitting in between. -eah24fan's first post.

There has not been other drivers in it. It is a new truck and we are the first drivers of it.
-eah24fan's last post.
Don't mean to be rude, but exactly which statement is is, the first statement which led me to say what I said, and honestly not all mechanics have ever driven a diesel/cmv and don't have a clue how they work, or what? How did the truck get to all the truck shows on a flatbed, or towed? Just curious ya know everybody drives differently

 

[Vinnie T]

Funny

I have a N14, my buddy had one as well. I think they run hot to begin with and the fan always runs in the summer. Should not affect the AC though and drop the MPG like that.

 

[eah24fan]

It was driven by the sales person to the Panther terminal twice for shows which is only from Columbus,OH to Seville,OH. Then the same from the dealership to Wilmington,OH for the Expedite Expo. I do NOT see how this means there was other drivers in it. This dealer has been in the expedite business for years and I highly doubt this little bit of driving it would have caused this. There was exactly 2,000 miles on it when we picked it up. So NO I would not classify this as having drivers in it. Why does everything has to be such a negative post. This is why my wife doesn't post anymore too! Everything always gets twisted by someone.

 

[davekc]

As they were telling you, it may be just a bug in the computer. The only issue we have had so far with a 08 is the engine shut down light has come on a few times. Cummins said ignore it if gauges are good for about a month and it will go away.
Goes away by itself after a short while. Time will tell I guess. It is probably due to the regen garbage on them.
Outside of that it seems to be holding up.

 

[eah24fan]

Thanks Dave yes our check engine light has come one several time and flashed several codes but when taken in to thw shop right after still nothing. We have called other shops that we have dealt with in the past and some of them think it might be a wiring issue. We wouldn't have a problem with it cause it's not really overheating, but that stupid engine fan kicking on and off every 30 seconds sounds like a jet engine taking off and you can't get any sleep going down the road.
Greg, we finally got one mechanic today to admit that it most likely needs to be put on the DYNO wooohoo finally maybe getting somewhere. And we are going to try the water shut off valve idea too. Will keep everyone posted.

 

[Kenneth Dick]

I am having some of the same problems. been ongoing for a year and still do not have an answer. If you can give me a call maybe by comparing notes we can get something done. 217-774-3686 or 217-246-6280

 

[eah24fan]

Well here is the update on this issue. Talked with the other owner above and have been comparing notes. Also put the wat valves on like the one poster here sugessted and it did not work either.
After doing extensive research on this enigine we have found out there are several people in different fields of business that are having the same problems with these engines. Some of them include motorcoaches, school buses, fire trucks, and so on. One motorcoach had t he problem so bad that if burnt his transmission up to the tune of $28,000 as well. Also found out that there has been several different recalls on things related to the regen system too.
And found out that Cummins knows about all these problems but doesn't seem to want to figure them out.
So we are still running through a check list of things and will keep everyone posted. As drivers of this truck though paying for the fuel this 4mpg is killing us.