Ron Paul Newsletter

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Ms Gee writes;

"Destroying a good man's reputation to advance your own political agenda is despicable. But you know what's even worse than that? In rehashing this non-controversy for your own purposes, you may have helped create racial animosity that didn't exist before.

And that is simply inexcusable."



Seems like the American way to me. :mad:

Wasn't Herman Cain and Newt Gingrich gleefully slimed and pillared by some in this forum to advance their political agendas as well?
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The article implies that the newsletter had a "army" of possible ghost writers. Paul is on record as saying there was only six to eight total.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Wasn't Herman Cain and Newt Gingrich gleefully slimed and pillared by some in this forum to advance their political agendas as well?
If you mean that lies were told about them and/or deliberate misrepresentations were made of their records or conduct, then the answer would be:

No.

One of the problems with sliming someone by intentionally lying or misrepresenting things, is that it has a way of coming back to haunt one.

It's a fine point that some in the political arena fail to understand ... at their own peril.
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
The article implies that the newsletter had a "army" of possible ghost writers. Paul is on record as saying there was only six to eight total.
No, it most certainly does not - that is your own inference (which is itself a huge stretch), taken from a section of the article where the author was speaking about the practice of ghost writing generally, apparently in the context of Fortune 1000 companies.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Looks like the earliest one shown at the link posted was April 1978, the last that was copied was from 1993. Since there aren't any copies or partials since that date, let's call it 15 years.
Not exactly 20 years, now is it. You should actually read the one from April 1978. Not much racist in that one. Same with the other two in that section. They're anti-government, anti-neocon sentiment, which is why they're listed. The alleged "racist" newsletters were put out while he was not in office. Not nearly continually over a +/- 20 year period.

And indeed - where has the press been with regard to this stuff? The Houston Chronicle and Dallas Morning News have done a couple of pieces, but nothing that got much traction.
Usually when there's no traction, it's because there's nothing there.

What difference does that make? Well, you asked, "Has ANY other congressman or senator..." and I answered. It makes a difference in that Paul had left politics and was practicing medicine full time. The chances of him being an active participant, or even being fully aware of what was in the newsletters at the time of their publishing is rather low, considering how most newsletters are created. There is an entire ghostwriting industry dedicated to political and other "cause" newsletters. Are you not aware of that?

Herman Cain was gratuitously accused of doing the messaround while not in public office, but he sure didn't get any sort of break on that.
No, he didn't, and Paul isn't getting a break of his gratuitous accusations, either. But the difference is how badly Cain responded. He waffled, lied, tried to obfuscate, and changed his stories daily, and was called on it at every turn. His initial response was, "I'm not going to talk about it," and then proceeded to talk about nothing else for a week. Paul has answered the accusations directly, and has answered them absolutely consistently every time he has been asked about them, now and in the past. There are no inconsistencies in his answers, has no history of lying or obscuring the truth, and his actual record on racial issue indicates he's telling the truth.

But apparently the only acceptable answer he can give is, "OK, you got me. I'm a racist jerkwad. Now what?" <snort>

A lot of them are partials, but at least it's a start. They show what was being published under Paul's name by a Ron Paul corporation.
Yes they do. And he addressed it directly, saying he wasn't aware of what was in them until several years after they were published, and that when he became aware of them it was put to a stop. Since he's been back in politics there hasn't been any of it, far as I know.

I suggest that you and anyone else who's curious visit some of these wacko websites such as Stormfront.org. I never claimed that EVERY white supremacist was a PaulBot, but there's a whole lotta love for Ron Paul being displayed at these places.
Been there, seen 'em. The fact that there's a whole lot of love for Ron Paul there isn't really any kind of evidence at all, considering there's a whole lot of love for Ron Paul at many non-wacko Web sites, as well.

He takes "Moral Responsibility" :confused: What exactly is that?
Seriously? You don't know? Taking a moral responsibility is recognizing the moral responsibility to act in a morally responsible manner. It's ethics. In this case, the moral responsibility was to put a stop to it and not let it happen again, to be more aware of what goes out under his name. He did that. What more would you have him do?

Is that the type of responsibility that's supposed to allow him to avoid any possible consequences and not be held accountable by the voters?
Not at all. It's the type where you acknowledge your actions, or lack thereof, and then act accordingly. The voters also have a responsibility, too, and they will hold Paul, and themselves, responsible when they vote.

Talk about "politics as usual"...
You gotta be kidding me;
No, I'm not kidding you, he actually said that.

remember the validity of these words - "I did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky"? What he says means nothing unless one assumes he's a politician that doesn't lie.
The difference, of course, is that Clinton had a history of lying, whereas Paul doesn't.

Furthermore, we don't know that he didn't write or didn't condone the stuff in the newsletters - we don't know who wrote the newsletters and he won't tell us who did. The fact that he won't come clean on that tells us a lot.
You're right, we don't know if he did or did not, so it's just ludicrously retarded for anyone to assume one way or the other. However, Paul did say he didn't write them, and as since he has no history of lying, and his public record indicates he's not a racist, there is little reason to assume things to the contrary.

So you're saying it's "disingenuous" to offer opinions (supported by publicly available evidence) that are contrary to the Paul orthodoxy that's so common in this forum?
If those opinions are based on lies or misrepresentations of the truth, yes, it's quite disingenuous to label that as "balance". You cannot balance the truth with a lie or an unknown. Can't be done. You can balance an opinion with another, but neither can be based on something other than the truth and be valid.

Are you also saying the pro-Paul opinions are the gospel truth unencumbered by bias??
I don't think so. In fact, if you were to ask me, I'd say that most of the pro-Paul opinons here are based on a definite bias of being in favor of his positions on the various issues. I would further comment that RLENT is so encumbered with bias that he's borderline (being kind with that qualifier) fanatical about it, where he will dismiss the negatives or even look for excuses for them. Do you want to be the other side of the RLENT coin? Flip.

My point of view is that what was written in the Ron Paul newsletters and published by a corporation that bore his name is worth consideration by the voters because it could reveal a side of him that he doesn't want exposed to daylight during his presidential run.
I agree completely. The key to it all is being willing to listen to the man, look at his record, and discern whether what was written in those newsletters do, in fact, reveal a side of Paul, or rather they are merely the ramblings of a ghost writer that reveal nothing whatsoever about Paul himself.

The fact that he "disavows" the written statements and takes the Bart Simpson position that he didn't do it and doesn't know who did is about as credible as the infamous Clinton quote mentioned above.
OK. Why do you believe it's not credible? Do you think all newsletters are penned or approved by their namesake? Do you think a man who left politics and went back into medicine full time would still pay attention to a political newsletter that someone else had taken over? Does Paul have a history of lying? Does he have a history of racist charges? Why is it not credible?

Here's the bottom line: he needs to come clean about who wrote and published the newsletters.
To name the authors is a very easy thing, and it would certainly shed some easy light on the newsletters. So why doesn't he just name the names and be done with it? You do realize that there's a better than fair chance he's legally bound to not reveal the author(s) of those pieces, right? Mutual contracts are signed with ghostwriters which prevent the authors from taking credit, and preventing the publishers and namesakes from naming the authors. If he were to "come clean", as you say, it would open him up to litigation. And he'd lose. Instead, he's showing principles, ethics and a moral responsibility to honor that contract. Maybe even to his detriment.

He says he didn't write them. Despite there being no reason to doubt him, you are of course under no obligation to believe him. You are however under a moral obligation to not pound away as if he did write them, with no supporting evidence whatsoever sans other's opinions to back it up. I don't have a problem with anyone posting their opinions about anything, but when they (and you) use strawmen and other logical fallacies as the basis for conclusions, that's where I have a problem, because it's not the truth.

You posted a very biased an unbalanced collection of newsletter snippets, collected specifically to show Paul as being something which his own historical record shows to be untrue, and then tried to pass it off as something the public should use in order to "get a better idea of what was being put out in Ron Paul's name." That's immensely disingenuous. It's a distortion of reality, and it was done on purpose. You really and truly think that's balance?

If you're afraid of Ron Paul because he's a frightening little cuss (unlikely) or because of his ideas (probably) then say so. It's OK to be honest.

If you like big government who intrudes on our liberties, then say so. It's OK to be honest.

If you are a neocon who likes the idea of war, of telling other countries what to do and forcing them to do what we want out of fear of us, who thinks "national security interests" and "national interests" are the same thing, then say so. It's OK to be honest.

If you think isolationism and non-interventionism are the same thing, then say so. It's OK to be honest.

If you think we can't have too many federal policemen and that the TSA should be patting down little old ladies' Depends and confiscating terroristic cupcakes because the chocolate icing kinda-sorta resembles a gel-like substance that's banned on airplanes, then say so. It's OK to be honest.

If you think it's OK for the government to tell you how to live your life, and to squash your free speech when they don't agree with it, then say so. It's OK to be honest.

These are some of the positions of Ron Paul. But me, I'm much more concerned with a bunch of ghostwritten newsletters from 20 years ago. That's what's important. <snort>
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I would further comment that RLENT is so encumbered with bias that he's borderline (being kind with that qualifier) fanatical about it, where he will dismiss the negatives or even look for excuses for them.
Indeed .... I am a partisan :D
 

tbubster

Seasoned Expediter
Wasn't Herman Cain and Newt Gingrich gleefully slimed and pillared by some in this forum to advance their political agendas as well?
Yes by the very same people huffing and puffing that paul has done nothing wrong,funny when you think about it.

No, he didn't, and Paul isn't getting a break of his gratuitous accusations, either. But the difference is how badly Cain responded. He waffled, lied, tried to obfuscate, and changed his stories daily, and was called on it at every turn. His initial response was, "I'm not going to talk about it," and then proceeded to talk about nothing else for a week. Paul has answered the accusations directly, and has answered them absolutely consistently every time he has been asked about them, now and in the past. There are no inconsistencies in his answers, has no history of lying or obscuring the truth, and his actual record on racial issue indicates he's telling the truth.
You are wrong and ignoring the first report about it in the dallas paper where PAUL CALLS THE CONTENT OF THE LETTERS HIS WORDS.Then he changed it to this,In 2001, he told the Texas Monthly that his campaign staff told him not to say others had written what was in the newsletters because it was "too confusing".Your agurment in Pauls defence about him not being able to tell us who wrote the letters really shows his Incompetence as a leader.By not making sure that everything that was written under his name was OK he allowed himself to be backed into a corner he has no way out of. Not very smart for the guy who many claim is the smartest one running.Never mind the fact that he made money off of his supporters by leading them to belive he was the one writing the letters while charging them to recive letters he used ghost writers for!!Yeah that sounds like a moral honest man full of integrity alright.
But apparently the only acceptable answer he can give is, "OK, you got me. I'm a racist jerkwad. Now what?" <snort>The truth would work.Funny how everyone in washington lies yet a man who has been there for 30 plus years does not??????

. <snort>

As I said in another thread it does not matter if Paul is telling the truth or not.What is going to matter is which side tells the story better.So far in this round Paul is not doing so good.Getting mad and walking out of the interview has only hurt him and made this into a much bigger story much sooner then if he had just stayed and kept dening that he had anything to do with them.Think its odd that so many belive he is full of integrity yet he says about making money off the letters that he was not in washington and he had to make a living.Yet he slams NEWT for taking money from F&F.You know newt not being in washington he had to make a living right.Yep integrity:eek:
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Yes by the very same people huffing and puffing that paul has done nothing wrong, funny when you think about it.
No - that's not the argument at all (in fact, it's a strawman - which is a logical fallacy)

Clearly, Paul made an error in judgement - one which he has admitted and acknowledged - and for which he takes personal responsibility for. He's said that many, many times.

He is, afterall, a human being ..... not God.

As I said in another thread it does not matter if Paul is telling the truth or not. What is going to matter is which side tells the story better.
Well, that could possibly be true - provided you actually had something of a story to tell.

The likely problem is that no one actually does - and the evidence of that is that the "establishment" and MSM are already at the point having to misrepresent and tell outright lies - because apparently they have nothing else to tell.

Anyone who has a decent understanding of the practice of Public Relations knows what a huge liability doing so is.

Like the "blowback" that the CIA warned about, using lies and falsehoods in PR have a a tendency to come back and haunt those who have done so - by discrediting the messenger, and revealing there is an agenda.

So far in this round Paul is not doing so good. Getting mad and walking out of the interview has only hurt him
Ya think ?

That actually doesn't seem to be the case:

Ron Paul Gains 5% on Gingrich and Romney in 5 Days, Despite Smears: Gallup

BTW, you might wish to check with Fox News - I hear they have a number of openings for additional analysts and are currently hiring.

and made this into a much bigger story much sooner then if he had just stayed and kept denying that he had anything to do with them.
Wrong - he answered her questions (in some cases repeatedly), and once he figured out what Gloria Borger was up to, he ended the interview (which was over 8 minutes long). He was not on live television, and it is entirely up to him as to when the "interview" ended.

He actually made her look like a complete and total idiot.

BTW, how long exactly is he supposed to stand there giving the same answer to essentially the same 5 questions, rephrased a bazzilion different ways ?

Keeping in mind of course that he is currently on the campaign trail, and these same questions already have been asked and answered, on the same network and others, repeatedly (including twice previously on CNN, within the prior 24 hours)

Think its odd that so many belive he is full of integrity yet he says about making money off the letters that he was not in washington and he had to make a living.
He's a medical doctor - a specialist (an OB-GYN) - have a look a what they make sometime - it ain't chump change.

Yet he slams NEWT for taking money from F&F.
Thank you - we'll take any help we can get (even if you are unaware that you are even doing it):

Newt engaged in revolving-door, crony capitalism - not the same thing at all - and not even analogous in any way, shape, or form.

You know newt not being in washington he had to make a living right.
Yeah, sure he did (thanks again) - except that Newt did it by using his connections in government to suck out over $1.6 million dollars from government-sponsored entities .... which ultimately failed and had to be bailed out .... and he seems to have misrepresented what actually occurred in terms of what he actually did for the money:

From an LA Times article:

“I offered them advice on precisely what they didn’t do,” he replied. “My advice as a historian, when they walked in and said to me, ‘We are now making loans to people who have no credit history and have no record of paying back anything, but that’s what the government wants us to do.’ As I said to them at the time, this is a bubble. This is insane. This is impossible.”

A Bloomberg News story earlier this week disputed Gingrich’s account, saying that those familiar with Gingrich’s work don’t recall any warnings about the company’s business model—and that instead, his job was to rally support for Freddie Mac among Republicans in Washington.
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
You are wrong and ignoring the first report about it in the dallas paper where PAUL CALLS THE CONTENT OF THE LETTERS HIS WORDS.
No need to shout - although I understand you're very, very excited.

Got a link for that - showing a direct quote of Dr. Paul saying that ? (rather than your or a writer's paraphrase - which is merely a characterization of what someone has said)

Because here's what I find:

"In a 1996 interview with The News, Paul did not deny that he wrote the articles, which went to between 7,000 and 8,000 subscribers. He called complaints about them “typical political demagoguery.”

In 2001, he told Texas Monthly that he wished he had said he didn’t write them.

Not denying something is not the same as saying you did it (your reference for that would be the 5th Amendment to the United States Constitution)

FWIW, that quote is directly from an article that appeared in The Dallas Morning News on 22 December 2011.

Then he changed it to this, in 2001, he told the Texas Monthly that his campaign staff told him not to say others had written what was in the newsletters because it was "too confusing".
Yup. Here's exactly what was said in the Texas Monthly [begin Fair Use quote]:

"What made the statements in the publication even more puzzling was that, in four terms as a U. S. congressman and one presidential race, Paul had never uttered anything remotely like this.

When I ask him why, he pauses for a moment, then says, "I could never say this in the campaign, but those words weren't really written by me. It wasn't my language at all. Other people help me with my newsletter as I travel around. I think the one on Barbara Jordan was the saddest thing, because Barbara and I served together and actually she was a delightful lady." Paul says that item ended up there because "we wanted to do something on affirmative action, and it ended up in the newsletter and became personalized. I never personalize anything."

His reasons for keeping this a secret are harder to understand: "They were never my words, but I had some moral responsibility for them . . . I actually really wanted to try to explain that it doesn't come from me directly, but they [campaign aides] said that's too confusing. 'It appeared in your letter and your name was on that letter and therefore you have to live with it.'" It is a measure of his stubbornness, determination, and ultimately his contrarian nature that, until this surprising volte-face in our interview, he had never shared this secret. It seems, in retrospect, that it would have been far, far easier to have told the truth at the time."

Indeed.

Anyone who wants to read the full article, can do so at the following link (requires an account but it is free) - however I must warn anyone even thinking of doing so of two things

1. The article will explain who it is you are actually up against, and

2. The article is actually highly complimentary and flattering to Dr. Paul ...... be very careful ... you might actually become a fan :D:

Texas Monthly: Dr. No

The following video, although it's old and needs updated, may help your understanding on No. 1:

Ron Paul "I Always Win"

Your agurment in Pauls defence about him not being able to tell us who wrote the letters really shows his incompetence as a leader.
No, actually what it shows is one instance where he failed to exercise appropriate judgement. I doubt that there is anyone alive that can lay claim to never having had a failure in judgement.

On the other hand, if one looks to the entirety of his conduct, his record and political career, and places that on the scales of judgement, in comparison, one can render an accurate judgement of the man and his qualities as a leader.

But then, that may not fit the agenda that some have.

By not making sure that everything that was written under his name was OK he allowed himself to be backed into a corner he has no way out of.
It's not a corner he's trying to get out of - he's admitted as much, and taken responsibility for it. But he hasn't let it stop him either (something many, perhaps yourself too, would very much like to see)

Not very smart for the guy who many claim is the smartest one running.
You're right - it wasn't a particularly smart decision.

But then who among us hasn't made a stupid decision every now and then ? I know I've certainly made more than my share of my own.

Do you think that somehow politicians are somehow immune ?

Never mind the fact that he made money off of his supporters by leading them to belive he was the one writing the letters while charging them to recive letters he used ghost writers for!! Yeah that sounds like a moral honest man full of integrity alright.
Clearly Bubbie, you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about how "newsletters" are written.

Or books for that matter.

It is a rather common practice.
 
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muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
No, it most certainly does not - that is your own inference (which is itself a huge stretch), taken from a section of the article where the author was speaking about the practice of ghost writing generally, apparently in the context of Fortune 1000 companies.

Yes,but the article was in defense of Ron Paul. She was using her own personal knowledge on how ghost writing is done and how many are used. If it isn't pertinent regarding how many ghost writers are used regarding Ron Paul's newsletters then why even mention it. Or at least qualify by saying an army of ghost writers are used when she does business,but, she has no knowledge of how many Ron Paul used. Without the latter a reasonable person would infer that an army of ghostwriters were used for the newsletters when clearly that was not the case. Ron Paul's admission was that there was only six to eight.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yes by the very same people huffing and puffing that paul has done nothing wrong,funny when you think about it.



As I said in another thread it does not matter if Paul is telling the truth or not.What is going to matter is which side tells the story better.So far in this round Paul is not doing so good.Getting mad and walking out of the interview has only hurt him and made this into a much bigger story much sooner then if he had just stayed and kept dening that he had anything to do with them.Think its odd that so many belive he is full of integrity yet he says about making money off the letters that he was not in washington and he had to make a living.Yet he slams NEWT for taking money from F&F.You know newt not being in washington he had to make a living right.Yep integrity:eek:

Agree Tbub. I also think the argument he is legally bound not to release the name of the actual author/authors is a bit lame. There are ways to have this resolved. Just have a waiver signed by the actual author releasing any binding litigation . Have the person come out and say "Yes I wrote them and Ron Paul didn't have any knowledge of what I was writing. Why doesn't this happen? My theory is that person won't come out and claim resposibillity for them unless this topic becomes a real drag in the polls and is keeping him from gaining enough support to win the nomination . For that person to write something and not come forward and allow Ron Paul to take the blame for comments that he didn't write is not right and shows a lack of integrity. Trust me Obama and his minions with their billion dollar ad campaign will have a field day unless this is resolved by having that person step forward and squash this once and for all.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Agree Tbub. I also think the argument he is legally bound not to release the name of the actual author/authors is a bit lame. There are ways to have this resolved. Just have a waiver signed by the actual author releasing any binding litigation . Have the person come out and say "Yes I wrote them and Ron Paul didn't have any knowledge of what I was writing. Why doesn't this happen? My theory is that person won't come out and claim resposibillity for them unless this topic becomes a real drag in the polls and is keeping him from gaining enough support to win the nomination . For that person to write something and not come forward and allow Ron Paul to take the blame for comments that he didn't write is not right and shows a lack of integrity. Trust me Obama and his minions with their billion dollar ad campaign will have a field day unless this is resolved by having that person step forward and squash this once and for all.
Well, when it's not your money or your reputation on the line, it's easy to call a non-disclosure agreement "lame". I'm not sure how abiding by one you sign shows a lack of integrity, tho.

A waiver would have to be signed by the author(s) in order for Paul to release the name, but by the same token a waiver would have to be signed by Paul in order for the author(s) to come forward. Paul may not want to sign such a waiver, because the name of the author(s) could be quite damaging, rightly or wrongly.

If the author(s) is/are currently active in politics and political writing, they may not want to risk having themselves damaged by being associated with Paul. Especially if those writings are in conflict with their current agendas.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
To name the authors is a very easy thing, and it would certainly shed some easy light on the newsletters. So why doesn't he just name the names and be done with it? You do realize that there's a better than fair chance he's legally bound to not reveal the author(s) of those pieces, right? Mutual contracts are signed with ghostwriters which prevent the authors from taking credit, and preventing the publishers and namesakes from naming the authors. If he were to "come clean", as you say, it would open him up to litigation. And he'd lose. Instead, he's showing principles, ethics and a moral responsibility to honor that contract. Maybe even to his detriment.
Assuming there were ghostwriters - and there probably were - we also have to consider what they were writing. Did Paul agree to contracts guaranteeing their anonymity so they could create this around-the-bend racial stuff and anything else they felt like writing under his name, essentially giving them a blank check? Of course this is pure speculation since he won't offer details, but if that's what he agreed to he's got no business administrating anything.
He says he didn't write them. Despite there being no reason to doubt him, you are of course under no obligation to believe him... You are however under a moral obligation to not pound away as if he did write them, with no supporting evidence whatsoever sans other's opinions to back it up.
But there IS a reason to doubt him - he's not giving credible answers to the questions about those newsletters and their contents. That considered, there's every reason to continue asking him about the letters, their content and their authors; and since you brought it up, whether or not these "authors" had his blessing to write whatever they wanted under his name.
You posted a very biased an unbalanced collection of newsletter snippets, collected specifically to show Paul as being something which his own historical record shows to be untrue, and then tried to pass it off as something the public should use in order to "get a better idea of what was being put out in Ron Paul's name." That's immensely disingenuous. It's a distortion of reality, and it was done on purpose. You really and truly think that's balance?
What I posted was all that was available at that point in time. It shows portions of the content of his newsletters. If there's a collection of all the Ron Paul newsletters in their entirety, then let's see them. I would think one of the many PaulBots on here would have posted these or at least a link to them by now. Once again, this isn't a news reporting site and the posts and/or opinions don't have to be balanced.
If you're afraid of Ron Paul because he's a frightening little cuss (unlikely) or because of his ideas (probably) then say so. It's OK to be honest.
In all honesty - what bothers me about Ron Paul is that he might muster just enough support for him to rationalize running as a third party candidate and throw the election to Obama. That's the only thing about him that's frightening, other than his foreign policy positions. Fortunately, he'll never have the chance to implement any of those.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Assuming there were ghostwriters - and there probably were - we also have to consider what they were writing. Did Paul agree to contracts guaranteeing their anonymity so they could create this around-the-bend racial stuff and anything else they felt like writing under his name, essentially giving them a blank check? Of course this is pure speculation since he won't offer details, but if that's what he agreed to he's got no business administrating anything.
You're absolutely right... if that was, in fact the reason he signed the contracts. It's certainly a possibility. Not sure how probable it is, tho. You're also right about it being pure speculation, as there is no evidence to support such a notion.

But there IS a reason to doubt him - he's not giving credible answers to the questions about those newsletters and their contents.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the above statement says, "I doubt him because I doubt him," a logical fallacy. I asked you why you didn't think his answers were credible, considering he has no history of racism nor of lying, and you haven't answered. Instead, you simply find him not credible, despite his answers being perfectly in line with how many newsletters, especially political, "cause" and financial, get banged out.

Do keep in mind the source of all this, which is a profile,a solicitation letter, and an ongoing series of articles written by James Kirkich, who has a long-standing animosity towards Paul, and who is a member of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, where he and the likes of Eric Cantor and others do their neocon thing with gusto. It would seem you don't like Paul for the same reasons as Kirkich, et al. They think Paul's answers aren't credible, either, and they likewise do not give any reasons for saying it.

That considered, there's every reason to continue asking him about the letters, their content and their authors; and since you brought it up, whether or not these "authors" had his blessing to write whatever they wanted under his name.
It would seem, based on your posts here, that there is only one reason, not every reason, to continue asking him the same questions over and over. That being to get him to say something that will damage or hang himself sufficiently that he must remove himself from the campaign and just go away.

What I posted was all that was available at that point in time. It shows portions of the content of his newsletters. If there's a collection of all the Ron Paul newsletters in their entirety, then let's see them. I would think one of the many PaulBots on here would have posted these or at least a link to them by now. Once again, this isn't a news reporting site and the posts and/or opinions don't have to be balanced.
No, we don't have to be balanced, but you claimed to actually be "Balance", by posting biased snippets and passing them off as something they are not. The nippet simply cannot be, by any stretch of credulity, something in which the public can use to "get a better idea of what was being put out in Ron Paul's name," when there are, in fact, thousands upon thousands of newsletter pages which do not contain anything of an incendiary nature. To do that and claim to be "Balance" rather than claiming the honesty of trying to further your own political agenda, is, again, immensely disingenuous. It's OK to be honest. It really is.

In all honesty
There ya go! :D

- what bothers me about Ron Paul is that he might muster just enough support for him to rationalize running as a third party candidate and throw the election to Obama. That's the only thing about him that's frightening, other than his foreign policy positions. Fortunately, he'll never have the chance to implement any of those.
OK, now we're getting somewhere. You're a neocon who likes the idea of foreign intervention and meddling, and likes the idea of a strong military empire. At least that's honest, and it's a position that many, many Americans have. It's also the only national policy that most living Americans have ever known, since it was in place and in full swing long before we were born.

I think America as a nation of neocons with a neocon foreign policy, we have seen that policy in the recent past and recent present come back to haunt us a little bit, so it deserves a re-thinking. I'm not a Ron Paul supporter, but I do like many of his ideas, especially those which put the country back in line with the Constitution, namely keeping the federal government at bay and under control, rather than let them do as they please while taking away our basic liberties in the process.

There's an idiom that proves to be true (although Obama is certainly pushing the envelope) which is, there is only just so much damage, or good, that one man can do as President. The President is hamstrung by not only the Constitution, but by the other two branches of government. Obama has not, nor will he ever, be able to accomplish all the things we wants to do, to change America they way he wants to.

Remember how the black folks thought it was gonna be a brand new day, that "We HAVE overcome", when Obama got elected, only to be thoroughly disappointed by a disillusioned reality? If Paul were to become President, the Paul fanatics (or as they are lovingly referred to, the Paulistas), will experience the same disappointment. Paul will be limited in his accomplishments, and damage, same as Obama.

I do think "Anybody But Paul" may be the wrong tact to take if the ultimate goal is "Anybody But Obama". If shortsighted fervor eliminates Paul from the primaries, the GPO is left with Gingrich, who can't even get himself on the primary ballot in his home state, and Perry, Romney and Huckabee, none of whom are likely to beat Obama. If the Republican Party stubbornly hangs tough with the old-school Establishment SOP, they'll go down in flames and will have in effect elected Obama themselves, and then look to blame someone else for their failures.

The Republicans are more or less standing by themselves in a huddle and calling out to everyone to come and join their little party, when what they need to be doing is adapting and overcoming. The way to do that is not to tell people, "You need to believe what I believe, or else!" but rather to find out which issues are important to people, and then adapt to those issues. The "Traditional Conservative" positions are a turn-off to those who aren't already Traditional Conservatives, and doesn't make anyone want to convert.

The Republicans are, literally, doing the same things over and over, and expecting different results. And it ain't workin'.

The Democrats welcome anybody and everybody, and will change things to accommodate them, and that ain't workin', either.

We need to find something that works. The Constitution works. It, and the country, worked just fine until Woodrow Wilson decided to ignore both the Constitution and the warnings of the Founding Fathers when, under the guise making the world safe for Democracy, he created entangling alliances so US and European industrialists could sell munitions and guns to the allies. American Interests, to be sure, but not exactly American Security Interests. It's been downhill ever since with more and more entangling alliances, many of which have come back to bite us in the ***.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Well, when it's not your money or your reputation on the line, it's easy to call a non-disclosure agreement "lame". I'm not sure how abiding by one you sign shows a lack of integrity, tho.

A waiver would have to be signed by the author(s) in order for Paul to release the name, but by the same token a waiver would have to be signed by Paul in order for the author(s) to come forward. Paul may not want to sign such a waiver, because the name of the author(s) could be quite damaging, rightly or wrongly.

If the author(s) is/are currently active in politics and political writing, they may not want to risk having themselves damaged by being associated with Paul. Especially if those writings are in conflict with their current agendas.

Yes I agree with your points. I was referring to the article a few post back where she was discussing the non disclosure agreement as a reason that the true author won't come forward. I think this is just an excuse for not identifying the real author. If there were only six to eight that were ghostwriters like Paul has stated than a logical conclusion would be that he knew them all. He also has learned who wrote what. My point about integrity is if someone wrote something in another person's name(Paul) and he was being raked over the coals by people unfairly wouldn't that person come forward to help out his friend?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Well, first, I think the name or names of the authors will and should come out. It all depends on how that's done. Secondly, the ghostwriters may or may not be Paul's friend. Ghostwriters often have never met the person they are writing for.

Paul may very well know, or at least have a good idea who all wrote for his newsletter. He may or may not know who wrote an individual article, though. I can also envision a scenario where the author is a friend of Paul's, Paul wasn't aware of what was written at the time, and when Paul found out, looked at his friend and said, "Gee, thanks loads, idiot."

"If there were only six to eight that were ghostwriters like Paul has stated than a logical conclusion would be that he knew them all."

So the only factor in whether he knew them all would be the number of ghostwriters? I'd love to see the logic flowchart on how you were able to logically reach that conclusion. Because it would have to contain many little boxes with assumptions and conjecture inside them.

It would necessarily mean, among many things, that he had control over the newsletter, and had it on a a day-to-day basis, that he handled the financial ends of the newsletter, that he wasn't just the publisher but the editor, and that he approved all of the ghostwriters who were hired to write for the newsletter, and he would have to know the names of all those in the available pool of ghostwriters. If all of those things are true, and it doesn't appear any of them are, then your conclusion is logical. If they are not, then it's a conclusion based on flawed logic.

I also think that, politics being what they are, there's a better than even chance that if the names do not come out, Paul will be crucified for it, and if the names do come out, he'll be crucified for it.

It all depends on what the media finds out and wants to do about it. It does seem odd that none of his political opponents on the local or national level has ever brought all this up before. Because, if on the level, they could have removed Paul from the national map a long time ago, considering Paul is The Thorn in the side of Congress, so it's surprising the newsletters haven't been used before. It makes one wonder if the newsletters truly are much ado about nothing and if maybe Paul's answers, despite them not being the kind his detractors would like to hear, absolutely honest and on the level.

The politics of character assassination is a nasty, dirty business, and is most often used with little or no actual facts to base it on. The only time it's valid is when the politician's own record warrants it. Knowing that, and knowing that Paul's own record is the direct opposite of racism and the other charges (though, also in direct opposition to the neocon position), it stands to reason that this, like most other character assassinations, is purely politically motivated by other neocons, and not warranted by his own record. This is a conclusion is further supported by where these accusations originated, and from where they keep cropping up.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
There is no direct evidence to suggest Ron Paul harbors racist viewpoints. The real problem arising from the newsletters is a public perception fiasco. The newsletters' controversy will dog Ron Paul until this election cycle is over. To the benefit of some, it takes Paul off message and requires him to take a defensive posture. It isn't fair, but candidates face these tactics pretty often.

The newsletters were a money-making enterprise. In pursuit of profit, Ron Paul lent his good name to less than scrupulous writers. There can be little doubt Ron Paul regrets delegating those chores.

I consider Ron Paul to be a convictions politcian. That's the best kind because he says what he thinks and believes. If Ron Paul really held racist views, we would have heard them straight from Paul himself, many times over many years. Let Paul be judged on the strength of his ideas. Accusing candidates of racism gets old.

In the interest of full disclosure - and for those not paying attention- I am not a Ron Paul fan.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Yes,but the article was in defense of Ron Paul. She was using her own personal knowledge on how ghost writing is done and how many are used. If it isn't pertinent regarding how many ghost writers are used regarding Ron Paul's newsletters then why even mention it.
Because many folks are completely ignorant of how that particular profession operates as an industry .... and one really has to look no further than this thread to see the evidence that this is true.

It's background info - context - provided to enable some understanding of thing which most are probably not familiar with ....

Or at least qualify by saying an army of ghost writers are used when she does business, but, she has no knowledge of how many Ron Paul used.
Well, I hate to say this .... but think if the above is what you get" from the article you are completely misunderstanding it - it's a comprehension thing.

What she is saying is, that in terms of the industry, there are literally armies of people out there ghost writing (within the industry), not that there are always "armies" of ghost writers wherever she works ....

Although, considering that she appears to have worked for Fortune 1000 companies I suppose it wouldn't be entirely surprising if there were ... :rolleyes:

Without the latter a reasonable person would infer that an army of ghostwriters were used for the newsletters when clearly that was not the case.
Actually, I don't think a "reasonable" person would infer that at all ... I'll spare everyone here a characterization of what type of person would ....

Ron Paul's admission was that there was only six to eight.
Yup - should consider the assertion of Dr. Paul's that you just referred to, and what it would seem to indicate:

..... six to eight ......

..... not 6 .....

..... not 7 .....

..... not 8 .....


If one "knows" something, that, by necessity, implies certainty ....

Uncertainty would seem to imply an unfamiliarity ..... or distance from what one is uncertain about ......
 
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