I passed this on up to Rand... Thanks,,, great idea
Rand McNally TND 700
- Thread starter bobwg
- Start date
I passed this on up to Rand... Thanks,,, great idea
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Mark,
Seriously?
It is possible but not probable. I had problems with the last unit which was in no way an USB power issue with the test platform I have.
However, I have yet to see any mainstream computers that have a usb port current under 100ma, which is the norm for USB2.0 ports. If RM knows about this issue and hasn't spent the extra money (time) fixing the issue, then it is in addition to their poor support system and reflects on what they expect to gain in a highly competitive market.
The question I have for their leads on this project is this;
Didn't you guy do competitive product analysis with emphasis on the end user or did you just throw requirements together to throw are some vendors to try to capture market share?
Seriously?
It is possible but not probable. I had problems with the last unit which was in no way an USB power issue with the test platform I have.
However, I have yet to see any mainstream computers that have a usb port current under 100ma, which is the norm for USB2.0 ports. If RM knows about this issue and hasn't spent the extra money (time) fixing the issue, then it is in addition to their poor support system and reflects on what they expect to gain in a highly competitive market.
The question I have for their leads on this project is this;
Didn't you guy do competitive product analysis with emphasis on the end user or did you just throw requirements together to throw are some vendors to try to capture market share?
I did not mention any values in the mA. What the user would see - the TND showing connected, the USB port showing an unknown device, the Device Manager showing an unknown device. I tracked down the driver for the USB ports and it is the same driver for any USB device. Power outputs for mA to the USB ports have been turned down. It is not enough for the data stream to see an actual USB device attached.
Rand has been trying many different ways to overcome this issue. It is not the TND's fault. The TND was made to standards. The older laptops do not have the USB port issue.
Their are three mainstream laptops (I will not mention names) that are the newer type that are usually 32/64 bit, Win 7 that seem to be in the forefront.
How does one fix an issue that seems to be with only certain name brand laptops? Redesign the entire TND? Testing the TND 700 has been done for over 5 months prior to its release date to the public. The Beta Testers did not see this issue. I myself have connected hundreds of TND 500's and 700's to my Toshiba laptop without any issues.
Rand has tried Power USB Hubs, yet they limit the mA to a limit just below the required for the TND 700. My TND 700 will connect to my MAC with a Power Hub. So, it cannot be the TND. Rand has had the user adjust the power settings on their laptops to a higher setting to try to push more mA to the USB Port.
In this trend of going green and using devices that consume less mA, the computer manufactures forgot the entire picture.
Any TND is field tested at least 4-6 months before the public is aware of any new unit hitting the market.
I am not aware of your issue, but the "unknown device" on the USB port is a power issue.
Thanks,
Mark
greg334
Veteran Expediter
OK first the standard for USB2.0 ports is 100ma per port for the power source to the device (VCC/GND). This is not the same as the data lines (D+/D-) which has nothing to do with the VCC portion of the power source but uses the GND for obvious reasons.
IF you had to track down the device driver, then the requirements that the product engineers wrote for the device is flawed.
I did a little research and found nothing to suggest that this is true. If the laptop/desktop/standalone system has any issue with a 100 ma draw on a USB2.0 port. Please tell me specifics.
I can't agree that it was made to any standards but it seems that it is like a lot of other devices which is rushed into production and not properly tested (I don't mean third party beta testing).
Why not mention them?
Actually yea, it does need to be redesigned … or at least some consideration to find out who advised them to take a backward approach and changes made to correct the problems..
At this moment, having two failures with new in the box items I am not sympathetic to the company and rather knowing what it takes to design and build a USB device first hand, I think it is a rush job.
But I think they are missing the point of what the end user should deal with – which is little in the way of hardware/software/firmware failures. IF they knew this before it hit the market, then it should not have hit the market.
Sorry but here is the thing, it has nothing to do with being green. There is an entire industry for the design and manufacture of these devices (GPS units) and there are a lot of weird approaches to what they do to solve these issues. I can put my requirements together, hand some chinese company X dollars and have my very own branded GPS unit.
If this unit was tested for 6 months, then that is 6 months too short.
BUT with that said, here is a suggestion that may help these overpaid engineers out.
Make the device a HID (03h) device and develop around it that way. Having one common driver that is on all platforms helps a lot.
Ok, I might be missing something here...
A unit load is defined as 100 mA in USB 2.0, and was raised to 150 mA in USB 3.0. A maximum of 5 unit loads (500 mA) can be drawn from a port in USB 2.0, which was raised to 6 (900 mA) in USB 3.0. There are two types of devices: low-power and high-power. Low-power devices draw at most 1 unit load, with minimum operating voltage of 4.4 V in USB 2.0, and 4 V in USB 3.0. High-power devices draw the maximum number of unit loads supported by the standard. All devices default as low-power but the device's software may request high-power as long as the power is available on the providing bus.
Some devices like high-speed external disk drives may require more than 500 mA of current and therefore cannot be powered from one USB 2.0 port. Such devices usually come with Y-shaped cable that has two USB connectors to be inserted into a computer. With such a cable a device can draw power from two USB ports simultaneously.
A bus-powered hub is initialized at 1 unit load and transitions to maximum unit loads after hub configuration is obtained. Any device connected to the hub will draw 1 unit load regardless of the current draw of devices connected to other ports of the hub (i.e. one device connected on a four-port hub will only draw 1 unit load despite the fact that all unit loads are being supplied to the hub).
A self-powered hub will supply maximum supported unit loads to any device connected to it.
So, you say, newer USB ports (if they're USB 3.0 that's 900mA), powered hubs (500mA), and even 'Y'-cables (that's good for 1-amp) aren't supplying enough power?? WTF is in the thing, a blender?
So, it seems that either the device is trying to operate on 1 unit load and not requesting more power from the port (the powered hub or 'Y'-cable should solve that) or there's some other problem that's masking as a power issue or someone is trying to make margaritas.
A unit load is defined as 100 mA in USB 2.0, and was raised to 150 mA in USB 3.0. A maximum of 5 unit loads (500 mA) can be drawn from a port in USB 2.0, which was raised to 6 (900 mA) in USB 3.0. There are two types of devices: low-power and high-power. Low-power devices draw at most 1 unit load, with minimum operating voltage of 4.4 V in USB 2.0, and 4 V in USB 3.0. High-power devices draw the maximum number of unit loads supported by the standard. All devices default as low-power but the device's software may request high-power as long as the power is available on the providing bus.
Some devices like high-speed external disk drives may require more than 500 mA of current and therefore cannot be powered from one USB 2.0 port. Such devices usually come with Y-shaped cable that has two USB connectors to be inserted into a computer. With such a cable a device can draw power from two USB ports simultaneously.
A bus-powered hub is initialized at 1 unit load and transitions to maximum unit loads after hub configuration is obtained. Any device connected to the hub will draw 1 unit load regardless of the current draw of devices connected to other ports of the hub (i.e. one device connected on a four-port hub will only draw 1 unit load despite the fact that all unit loads are being supplied to the hub).
A self-powered hub will supply maximum supported unit loads to any device connected to it.
So, you say, newer USB ports (if they're USB 3.0 that's 900mA), powered hubs (500mA), and even 'Y'-cables (that's good for 1-amp) aren't supplying enough power?? WTF is in the thing, a blender?
So, it seems that either the device is trying to operate on 1 unit load and not requesting more power from the port (the powered hub or 'Y'-cable should solve that) or there's some other problem that's masking as a power issue or someone is trying to make margaritas.
The mA is used as needed. If the device requires less, the draw is less. They put a cap on what the USB port will be allowed to draw.
I cannot go into details in a public forum.
The only reason I had to search for the driver is when the TND is not seen as a USB device it does not show the driver. I had to use another computer (not my own) to see what the difference is between the device manager settings. Compared to when a TND is "seen" by the USB port and when not seen.
The same driver is used by other USB devices that the TND needs and those are supplied by the operating software on the user’s computer. Rand does not supply a driver.
I spend quite a few hours on the phone with a user in troubleshooting. I thank him for his time and efforts.
An USB mouse and the TND use the same driver supplied by MicroSoft.
Again, if the TND is not "seen" by the computer then the driver is not present in the device manager. If the TND is "seen" by the computer then the driver is present in the device manager.
The same driver\date\version is used by all USB devices.
The Beta testers have many different types of computers. The connection issue was not found out till about a month ago. And only then it was found out it was on a 2009\2010 laptop.
My Toshiba is about 3 years old and it connects fine.
The driver is a Microsoft driver. It comes with your laptop.
The TND 700 hit the market in March 2010. The issue was not found out till about June. It was an unforeseeable issue. Rand cannot buy a laptop for each make\model\brand to test a product out.
Cars are being recalled years after they came off the showroom floor. Was the issue seen at the time of the sell? No. But, they find a solution and the consumer has to have their car still fixed.
Rand is working on this issue. Do we know a good "fix" yet - no. But, that does not mean we are not actively looking for a solution.
If a product was tested for years before it hit the market, then by the time it hit the market it would be obsolete.
Each week MicroSoft comes out with new "fixes". Does this mean that MS should hold a product for years to make sure every test and in every possible way to test needs to be done?
The TND was tested, ran thru 3rd party testing, QA'd, and tested by the Beta Testers. IF this fails to meet your high standards then Rand is sorry.
If you are having issues with the TND, then you have all rights to return it for your money back. Rand wishes you to have a good experience with your TND.
So in short. Rand is working on a solution.
Thanks,
mark
I cannot go into details in a public forum.
The only reason I had to search for the driver is when the TND is not seen as a USB device it does not show the driver. I had to use another computer (not my own) to see what the difference is between the device manager settings. Compared to when a TND is "seen" by the USB port and when not seen.
The same driver is used by other USB devices that the TND needs and those are supplied by the operating software on the user’s computer. Rand does not supply a driver.
I spend quite a few hours on the phone with a user in troubleshooting. I thank him for his time and efforts.
An USB mouse and the TND use the same driver supplied by MicroSoft.
Again, if the TND is not "seen" by the computer then the driver is not present in the device manager. If the TND is "seen" by the computer then the driver is present in the device manager.
The same driver\date\version is used by all USB devices.
The Beta testers have many different types of computers. The connection issue was not found out till about a month ago. And only then it was found out it was on a 2009\2010 laptop.
My Toshiba is about 3 years old and it connects fine.
The driver is a Microsoft driver. It comes with your laptop.
The TND 700 hit the market in March 2010. The issue was not found out till about June. It was an unforeseeable issue. Rand cannot buy a laptop for each make\model\brand to test a product out.
Cars are being recalled years after they came off the showroom floor. Was the issue seen at the time of the sell? No. But, they find a solution and the consumer has to have their car still fixed.
Rand is working on this issue. Do we know a good "fix" yet - no. But, that does not mean we are not actively looking for a solution.
If a product was tested for years before it hit the market, then by the time it hit the market it would be obsolete.
Each week MicroSoft comes out with new "fixes". Does this mean that MS should hold a product for years to make sure every test and in every possible way to test needs to be done?
The TND was tested, ran thru 3rd party testing, QA'd, and tested by the Beta Testers. IF this fails to meet your high standards then Rand is sorry.
If you are having issues with the TND, then you have all rights to return it for your money back. Rand wishes you to have a good experience with your TND.
So in short. Rand is working on a solution.
Thanks,
mark
bobwg
Expert Expediter
Ok so it seems I dont have the device driver on my computer I have a new HP laptop with windows 7 so what do I do to get the device driver? According to my automatic windows update my computer is up to date. I connect the 700 with the usb cable that came with it in the box and the 700 is charged and it is connected to the laptop for a long time and it still says unknown usb device and will not connect to the tnd dock. I guess I will wait about 2 more weeks see if someone comes up with a solution but if not will return it to the J they only have a 30 day return policy to get my money back
Please read and understand the posts I did earlier. You have the Driver already. It is a USB port current issue with the newer laptops not supplying the needed current to keep an active connection to the TND.
The TND is not the issue. The issue is the newer laptops toning down the current draw to the USB Ports. Rand is trying to find a work-around solution.
Thanks,
Mark
bobwg
Expert Expediter
Ok so its my new computer then my suggetions for anyone that has a new laptop or plans on buying a new one is DO NOT BUY the new TND 700 until/or if Rand can come up with a solution or maybe get with Microsoft and HP and what ever other brand of computer and work together to come up with the fix just saying if Rand is not able to come up with a solution no point in having a unit you cannot update and I dont know what the return policy is at all the truck stops but the J is 30 days not sure if that will change now that the Pilot is in charge now
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Bob,
Humor me for a little bit here. I have an idea.
Can you explain how you have this setup?
I will give you an example.
You have the laptop plugged into the power supply that is plugged into an inverter (or somewhere else)
You have the laptop up and running without an external mouse or keyboard.
You have the RM TND 700 powered up though the 12 volt adapter and hooked up to the laptop through one of the USB ports.
Is this close?
Humor me for a little bit here. I have an idea.
Can you explain how you have this setup?
I will give you an example.
You have the laptop plugged into the power supply that is plugged into an inverter (or somewhere else)
You have the laptop up and running without an external mouse or keyboard.
You have the RM TND 700 powered up though the 12 volt adapter and hooked up to the laptop through one of the USB ports.
Is this close?
Ok, I see we are having a lot of misunderstanding here.
The driver is pre-loaded on your laptop already. This driver is the generic USB driver that all USB devices use. So, forget about the driver being the issue. So MicroSoft has no play in this. Use an USB mouse - same driver, Camera - same driver, etc, etc.
I cannot stress enough about this not being a driver issue. I use the same driver for my USB port that you use for yours. It is the same driver\date\version.
Rand cannot be responsible for laptop makers or how they configure their equipment. If it was a TND issue then all laptops would have this issue. Mine does not, nor do a lot of other TND users.
The issue is the current draw on newer laptops. The USB port will supply current to the device up to a certain limit. This limit on newer models for certain brands is capping the current limit below what the TND 700 requires.
Think of it like this. Your throttle pedal is set to go no more than half way to the floor. Your truck will not be allowed to use the full horsepower of the engine. My truck does not have that constraint. Yet both trucks will perform.
The TND uses the same USB port for connecting to a computer as to either AC or DC.
Rand is trying to find a work-around that will allow you to use the TND on a newer computer.
The TND can always be updated with an Flash SD card just like the Mac's are being done. I send you the new version, you uncompress it on an SD Card and then the SD card is used to Flash the TND.
Let's try not to make a mountain out of this. Take the time and read and try to understand what I am saying.
It is not MicroSoft, It is not the TND. It is certain brands of newer laptops that have changed their current draw on the USB Ports. Most certainly not Rand's fault. But, Rand is trying to find a solution. They are not leaving you out in the dark.
Newer computers are more energy efficent. My Toshiba is a power hog. I require at least an 800w inverter to even to begin to make it happy.
thanks,
mark
I know where you are headed with this idea. Rand has tried to come up with a way to provide power from an AC charger and only data connections to the Laptop. It did not work. The laptop still requires some communications on the power lines.
The USB port on the TND is the same port used to power it via either by AC or DC.
USB power hubs are limiting the current draw below what is needed for the TND 700.
Rand has not given up.
Thanks,
Mark
To futher clarify.
A unit load is defined as 100 mA in USB 2.0, and was raised to 150 mA in USB 3.0. A maximum of 5 unit loads (500 mA) can be drawn from a port in USB 2.0, which was raised to 6 (900 mA) in USB 3.0. There are two types of devices: low-power and high-power. Low-power devices draw at most 1 unit load, with minimum operating voltage of 4.4 V in USB 2.0, and 4 V in USB 3.0. High-power devices draw the maximum number of unit loads supported by the standard. All devices default as low-power but the device's software may request high-power as long as the power is available on the providing bus.
Please note - newer computers are running low-power and thus are only providing 1 unit load (100mA).
Rand has have the users with this issue to turn their laptop to run high-power, but, this did not increase the port to high-power.
Thanks,
Mark
A unit load is defined as 100 mA in USB 2.0, and was raised to 150 mA in USB 3.0. A maximum of 5 unit loads (500 mA) can be drawn from a port in USB 2.0, which was raised to 6 (900 mA) in USB 3.0. There are two types of devices: low-power and high-power. Low-power devices draw at most 1 unit load, with minimum operating voltage of 4.4 V in USB 2.0, and 4 V in USB 3.0. High-power devices draw the maximum number of unit loads supported by the standard. All devices default as low-power but the device's software may request high-power as long as the power is available on the providing bus.
Please note - newer computers are running low-power and thus are only providing 1 unit load (100mA).
Rand has have the users with this issue to turn their laptop to run high-power, but, this did not increase the port to high-power.
Thanks,
Mark
I would be interested to know which notebooks have abandoned the USB standard. If indeed that is the case, then bus powered external hard drives (along with any other high power devices) wouldn't work either.
More likely, the power issues are a symptom of another problem causing the unit to behave erratically. I'm sure there is an engineer at rand pulling his hair out about it (he'll need a therapist and Hair Club by the time it's fixed). Hopefully they will be able to solve the issue with firmware and soon, as these seem to be otherwise nice units.
As for a notebook needing an 800W inverter - I have a high-end, high-power Toshiba and I have run it without problem on a 150W inverter. If you really are needing that much power, replace your power supply. 800W would run my IBM quad XeonMP eServer (that's not quad-core but 4 actual CPUs), even with it's 7 Hard drives.
Anyway, when they fix it, I'd love to hear what the problem was, if they release that info.
More likely, the power issues are a symptom of another problem causing the unit to behave erratically. I'm sure there is an engineer at rand pulling his hair out about it (he'll need a therapist and Hair Club by the time it's fixed). Hopefully they will be able to solve the issue with firmware and soon, as these seem to be otherwise nice units.
As for a notebook needing an 800W inverter - I have a high-end, high-power Toshiba and I have run it without problem on a 150W inverter. If you really are needing that much power, replace your power supply. 800W would run my IBM quad XeonMP eServer (that's not quad-core but 4 actual CPUs), even with it's 7 Hard drives.
Anyway, when they fix it, I'd love to hear what the problem was, if they release that info.
I bought a new 'puter a few months ago. Anything I've connected to it hasn't been a problem, including my 465. But, if I had the TND it could be a problem. But, the problem isn't the TND?
LOL... Are you considering getting into politics?
The AC and the DC cables provided provide enough current draw to power the TND. The newer laptops do not.
A 150 w my laptop would eat for breakfast. I have tried a 400w, but it keeps the inverter running at full cap. I found a 800w would not overhead the inverter from long term use each night.
If the TND was the issue then it would not connect to any laptop. It is only with certain branded laptops.
thanks,
Mark
A 150 w my laptop would eat for breakfast. I have tried a 400w, but it keeps the inverter running at full cap. I found a 800w would not overhead the inverter from long term use each night.
If the TND was the issue then it would not connect to any laptop. It is only with certain branded laptops.
thanks,
Mark
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Mark,
Here is the thing, I am not buying any of it. Sorry dude there is a misstep with RM and they need to come clean about the design and the problems. I think you are doing a good job defending them but you neither work for them or represent them in an official capacity.
From what I'm reading and assuming, power is provided to the unit through the power cord when it is attached to the laptop, not the USB port. If this is the case then it should work without any issues with any laptop/desktop. The data, which is the important thing, doesn't require the 100ma of current – to be exact I think it is something like 17ma produced by the host for each port and the communications is similar to CAN and other differential systems. If it doesn't work, then it is a design flaw, which could be a number of things from wrong chip set (or micro controller firmware) to improperly designed circuit board (ground planes anyone?) to bad cables. If you want a very technical explanation on the hows and whys, you can call Intel or National and talk to one of their engineers.
I talked with HP this morning, they read the posts here and also want to know what laptops are you talking about so they can investigate a possible issue with their products. They made the suggestion that I was going to make to Bob, plug in a USB mouse and that should load the HID port driver. the guy at HP and I both agreed that the USB OS/hardware drivers are already loaded.
I also think that if Bob is willing to play with an idea, try unplugging the power supply to the laptop, shut it down on battery, start it back up on battery and then plug the unit in to the laptop – leaving it unplugged from the power supply. If this 'fixes' the problem, it may be a chip set issue – Intel mentioned that with Toshiba MBs in branded laptops – but that is in older models.
I test, review and write about my experiences with products for clients who want honesty and privacy. A few of these are the manufactures, others are retails and a bunch are people who want to appear to do this for their own websites. I don't buy things and then boast about them and don't give a sh*t about what others may think about me, like my fan club here but I do care about my clients. I do make exceptions, like now.
I find that a lot of these industry specific products are poorly designed and/or poorly supported, this is one of those products which is both.
This product should have been bullet proof before marketed, no excuse I can find that justifies the problems being talked about especially after a lot of years of USB development with millions of USB products that work. If the product design team didn't do their homework, then it is RM's fault. If RM knew there was a problem and it was still pushed through to the customer, then it is RM's fault and damages their credibility. I can tell you that it is their fault that the customer service system s*cks and to expect people to jump through hoops to get basic info.
This product is used in a professional environment, not in the consumer environment. It isn't that some soccer mom is trying to find a place to eat with her brats but professionals who livelihoods and sometimes a lot of money depend on accurate and dependable information. This means that the end user should not have to worry about it not communicating with their laptop, worry about updates not being done and worry about the life cycle of the unit. This is where the product design team failed to understand what it needed in a professional environment, just because they print maps doesn't mean they know what truckers need. Just because your product design team talked to truckers, you have your marketing department do some surveys on what they like to see and you have some competitive product testing done, doesn't mean anything if you turn out a product that doesn't work.
Think of it this way, Smith & Wesson designed a new weapon for cops. They looked at what is on the market for non-professionals and decided to build it like everyone else but with some special features. They finish it, put it into production and then sold a number of them to cops without telling a few important things; you have to purchase new seats for your cars in order for you to sit with the firearm without it going off and you can only use it Monday through Friday except in leap years where it is Monday through Saturday.
Isn't that stupid?
Same thing here.
This is what RM seems to be doing, telling people they can't use it because they may have the wrong laptop. Instead of biting the bullet and pulling the products off the market, they are 'trying to find a solution' when the solution is a redesign, which is what I would be doing – redesigning it.
One of the funny things that a lot of people don't know about is the rapid manufacturing system over in China and a few other countries where you can send them requirements and they actually can have a prototype in your hands in 45 days. Many of the non-certified nav units are built this way, maybe you know that but if you don't, most use the same circuit board, with the same chip sets just different displays and packaging.
Well I didn't buy one, so I feel sorry for those who are stuck with it. I am with Bob on this one and I revised my review to reflect my feelings. Just sent it to my client moving my opinion from don’t buy just yet to don't bother buying it.
Here is the thing, I am not buying any of it. Sorry dude there is a misstep with RM and they need to come clean about the design and the problems. I think you are doing a good job defending them but you neither work for them or represent them in an official capacity.
From what I'm reading and assuming, power is provided to the unit through the power cord when it is attached to the laptop, not the USB port. If this is the case then it should work without any issues with any laptop/desktop. The data, which is the important thing, doesn't require the 100ma of current – to be exact I think it is something like 17ma produced by the host for each port and the communications is similar to CAN and other differential systems. If it doesn't work, then it is a design flaw, which could be a number of things from wrong chip set (or micro controller firmware) to improperly designed circuit board (ground planes anyone?) to bad cables. If you want a very technical explanation on the hows and whys, you can call Intel or National and talk to one of their engineers.
I talked with HP this morning, they read the posts here and also want to know what laptops are you talking about so they can investigate a possible issue with their products. They made the suggestion that I was going to make to Bob, plug in a USB mouse and that should load the HID port driver. the guy at HP and I both agreed that the USB OS/hardware drivers are already loaded.
I also think that if Bob is willing to play with an idea, try unplugging the power supply to the laptop, shut it down on battery, start it back up on battery and then plug the unit in to the laptop – leaving it unplugged from the power supply. If this 'fixes' the problem, it may be a chip set issue – Intel mentioned that with Toshiba MBs in branded laptops – but that is in older models.
I test, review and write about my experiences with products for clients who want honesty and privacy. A few of these are the manufactures, others are retails and a bunch are people who want to appear to do this for their own websites. I don't buy things and then boast about them and don't give a sh*t about what others may think about me, like my fan club here but I do care about my clients. I do make exceptions, like now.
I find that a lot of these industry specific products are poorly designed and/or poorly supported, this is one of those products which is both.
This product should have been bullet proof before marketed, no excuse I can find that justifies the problems being talked about especially after a lot of years of USB development with millions of USB products that work. If the product design team didn't do their homework, then it is RM's fault. If RM knew there was a problem and it was still pushed through to the customer, then it is RM's fault and damages their credibility. I can tell you that it is their fault that the customer service system s*cks and to expect people to jump through hoops to get basic info.
This product is used in a professional environment, not in the consumer environment. It isn't that some soccer mom is trying to find a place to eat with her brats but professionals who livelihoods and sometimes a lot of money depend on accurate and dependable information. This means that the end user should not have to worry about it not communicating with their laptop, worry about updates not being done and worry about the life cycle of the unit. This is where the product design team failed to understand what it needed in a professional environment, just because they print maps doesn't mean they know what truckers need. Just because your product design team talked to truckers, you have your marketing department do some surveys on what they like to see and you have some competitive product testing done, doesn't mean anything if you turn out a product that doesn't work.
Think of it this way, Smith & Wesson designed a new weapon for cops. They looked at what is on the market for non-professionals and decided to build it like everyone else but with some special features. They finish it, put it into production and then sold a number of them to cops without telling a few important things; you have to purchase new seats for your cars in order for you to sit with the firearm without it going off and you can only use it Monday through Friday except in leap years where it is Monday through Saturday.
Isn't that stupid?
Same thing here.
This is what RM seems to be doing, telling people they can't use it because they may have the wrong laptop. Instead of biting the bullet and pulling the products off the market, they are 'trying to find a solution' when the solution is a redesign, which is what I would be doing – redesigning it.
One of the funny things that a lot of people don't know about is the rapid manufacturing system over in China and a few other countries where you can send them requirements and they actually can have a prototype in your hands in 45 days. Many of the non-certified nav units are built this way, maybe you know that but if you don't, most use the same circuit board, with the same chip sets just different displays and packaging.
Well I didn't buy one, so I feel sorry for those who are stuck with it. I am with Bob on this one and I revised my review to reflect my feelings. Just sent it to my client moving my opinion from don’t buy just yet to don't bother buying it.
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This is some pretty funny stuff. Like The Cynic says, I too would be very interested in knowing which laptops have abandoned the USB 2.0 standards. The USB 1.1 specifications require (demand) that all USB ports provide a maximum of 100mA. USB 2.0 specifications require (demand) that each USB port be able to output a maximum of 500mA, with a surge power of four times that (for initial spin-up of external hard drives, mostly).
USB port hubs and controllers are generic system drivers, but the devices connected to them are not. Generic USB drivers (which are nothing more than USB Controller drivers) handle basic IO communications between the computer and the USB port. Anything beyond that, like actually communicating with the device and knowing what kind of device it is, requires a device driver for each device. That's why they're called device drivers. My Aircard, cell phone, two external hard drives, Garmin, digital camera, Keyspan serial port, Bluetooth dongle, Microsoft wireless mouse and printer/scanner/copier all use the same generic USB controllers, but each has their own device drivers in order to identify themselves to the operating system and, among a whole host of other things, to define their power consumption requirements.
All USB ports default to 100 mA, but all can provide up to 500mA if needed by the device. To state that manufacturers of newer laptops have reduced the power output of their USB ports is just absurd on the face of it, because it's simply not true.
"The newer computers, for some reason have decreased the mA output of the USB ports. The TND 700 requires more mA than the port can support."
How many mA's, exactly, does the TND 700 require? In order to make the above statement, this should be a well-known figure, and posting it in a public forum should present no problem.
"This was not know before and just have come to light the past month or so. Rand cannot check their TND's on every brand of computer\laptop their is."
Well, no, certainly not, but since all USB ports on all computers are built to the USB specifications, such testing isn't needed. All you have to do is manufacture a product that conforms to the standards, and you're good to go.
"In testing the USB Power Hubs we are finding they are limiting the mA output below what the TND 700 needs."
That's clearly a fault of the TND 700's design, then, since all USB 2,0 Power Hubs provide 500mA to each port (USB 3.0 provides 900mA).
Blender may be right. I'm beginning to think the TND 700 is manufactured by Kitchen Aid.
USB port hubs and controllers are generic system drivers, but the devices connected to them are not. Generic USB drivers (which are nothing more than USB Controller drivers) handle basic IO communications between the computer and the USB port. Anything beyond that, like actually communicating with the device and knowing what kind of device it is, requires a device driver for each device. That's why they're called device drivers. My Aircard, cell phone, two external hard drives, Garmin, digital camera, Keyspan serial port, Bluetooth dongle, Microsoft wireless mouse and printer/scanner/copier all use the same generic USB controllers, but each has their own device drivers in order to identify themselves to the operating system and, among a whole host of other things, to define their power consumption requirements.
All USB ports default to 100 mA, but all can provide up to 500mA if needed by the device. To state that manufacturers of newer laptops have reduced the power output of their USB ports is just absurd on the face of it, because it's simply not true.
"The newer computers, for some reason have decreased the mA output of the USB ports. The TND 700 requires more mA than the port can support."
How many mA's, exactly, does the TND 700 require? In order to make the above statement, this should be a well-known figure, and posting it in a public forum should present no problem.
"This was not know before and just have come to light the past month or so. Rand cannot check their TND's on every brand of computer\laptop their is."
Well, no, certainly not, but since all USB ports on all computers are built to the USB specifications, such testing isn't needed. All you have to do is manufacture a product that conforms to the standards, and you're good to go.
"In testing the USB Power Hubs we are finding they are limiting the mA output below what the TND 700 needs."
That's clearly a fault of the TND 700's design, then, since all USB 2,0 Power Hubs provide 500mA to each port (USB 3.0 provides 900mA).
Blender may be right. I'm beginning to think the TND 700 is manufactured by Kitchen Aid.
As I have explained many many times. The USB is the same port used for AC/DC/USB to the laptop. So their is no way to have the unit plugged into an AC adapter and the laptop at the same time.
Have Dell E-Mail me.
I stated before, the Driver is there. It is the same driver that an USB mouse uses. So, the driver is not the issue. If need be I can publish the information about the driver, but I do not need to provide it to anyone. ALL COMPUTERS ALREADY HAVE IT.
I mentioned a few times that Rand has over 100 Beta Testers whom are all Professional drivers that log miles each day in their trucks. I was on the road for 3 years. So, they just do not talk to drivers.. the drivers talk to Rand.
I do not need to talk to Intel. I have 30 years experience in Electronics. Starting with tubes.
You are changing your review? If you never had one to test then how can you review it? read posts? I can tell you have never seen one, as you are unsure of how the power is routed to the TND. So instead of just posting off the cuff and giving reviews on an unit that you have not seen or tested, buy one and test it. That way your customers would have a more honest review from you.
I never said the data lines require a load unit. The two power pins require it. All USB devices power up with one load unit (100ma) and if they need more then they request it on the bus line, but no more than five load units (500mA) will be send. Current is not an constant, voltage is. Current is drawn as needed by the device.
I have been with the TND for over 2-1/2 years. So, I feel I am more able to provide an honest opinion of the product.
Again, the issue was not found out till about a month ago. At least Rand is willing to stand up and say their is an issue and instead of letting the user just suffer, they are spending time and money to find a work-around.
If the user finds the TND will not talk to the USB port then they are more than welcome to return their unit. At least Rand stands behind the customer being happy.
And I have mentioned that I do have a work-around in place that will involve just flashing the TND to get any updates.
Again, I am here to help any user that has any issue with the TND. You can E-Mail me at [email protected]
I am not going to continue on with the USB current issue. I have said and I have been honest in letting users know of the issue.
Thanks,
Mark
Have Dell E-Mail me.
I stated before, the Driver is there. It is the same driver that an USB mouse uses. So, the driver is not the issue. If need be I can publish the information about the driver, but I do not need to provide it to anyone. ALL COMPUTERS ALREADY HAVE IT.
I mentioned a few times that Rand has over 100 Beta Testers whom are all Professional drivers that log miles each day in their trucks. I was on the road for 3 years. So, they just do not talk to drivers.. the drivers talk to Rand.
I do not need to talk to Intel. I have 30 years experience in Electronics. Starting with tubes.
You are changing your review? If you never had one to test then how can you review it? read posts? I can tell you have never seen one, as you are unsure of how the power is routed to the TND. So instead of just posting off the cuff and giving reviews on an unit that you have not seen or tested, buy one and test it. That way your customers would have a more honest review from you.
I never said the data lines require a load unit. The two power pins require it. All USB devices power up with one load unit (100ma) and if they need more then they request it on the bus line, but no more than five load units (500mA) will be send. Current is not an constant, voltage is. Current is drawn as needed by the device.
I have been with the TND for over 2-1/2 years. So, I feel I am more able to provide an honest opinion of the product.
Again, the issue was not found out till about a month ago. At least Rand is willing to stand up and say their is an issue and instead of letting the user just suffer, they are spending time and money to find a work-around.
If the user finds the TND will not talk to the USB port then they are more than welcome to return their unit. At least Rand stands behind the customer being happy.
And I have mentioned that I do have a work-around in place that will involve just flashing the TND to get any updates.
Again, I am here to help any user that has any issue with the TND. You can E-Mail me at [email protected]
I am not going to continue on with the USB current issue. I have said and I have been honest in letting users know of the issue.
Thanks,
Mark