Rand McNally TND 700

[cc194217]

I never said the USB 2.0 standards were thrown out. My laptop has 2.0 ports and yet the TND 700 draws the power it needs to operate. On the newer laptops of a few well known companies the TND is unable to draw the needed current.

As stated the min of 100mA is given to the port. This is not enough for the TND 700.

We have tried to run an dual USB to mini, but this did not work.

We have tried to run an USB power hub, since the power hub will provide 500mA automatically, but since it is connected to the laptop the device is still not seen.

SO,the question that we are trying to figure out is why the USB port is not allowing the five load units to be given?

I communicate personally with 70 Beta Testers, whom have a wide range of laptops. All will "talk" to the TND 700. I have one Beta Tester on a newer laptop that it will not "talk".

The TND was in the hands of the Beta testers for several months before it was made public. All with no issues. The one tester just bought his laptop about a month ago.

I have several users whom have the same issue, and the issue is only with certain branded laptops.

So, based upon past testing, the TND 700 is not seen as the cause of the issue. How the TND 700 "talks" to the newer certain branded laptops is the issue.

Could something have changed? I do not know. I do also know that my TND 700 will connect to my Mac. And I bought my Mac this year.

I would be more than willing to work with any laptop company in helping to resolve this issue. I am not here to place blame on the laptop company nor Rand. The issue is there, and Rand is working on finding out why.

Now if you cannot see this as support for the user, then what will be?

I also posted that upon my first connection with the TND 700 on my Toshibaa Satellite X205 I had to leave it connected for about 30 minutes before the TND sync'd up to the Laptop. I have 6 USB ports and it only likes two of the six.

So, if you own an TND 700 and are having connection issues, then by all means E-Mail me. You are not in the dark on versions. I can simply send you the files you need to update.

Thanks,
mark

 

[Turtle]

"I never said the USB 2.0 standards were thrown out."

Of course you did, right here when you stated very matter of factly, "The newer computers, for some reason have decreased the mA output of the USB ports."

In order for them to do that, they would have to be building USB ports that are not to standard, literally throwing the standards out, and instead building USB ports in a different manner.


"On the newer laptops of a few well known companies the TND is unable to draw the needed current.

As stated the min of 100mA is given to the port. This is not enough for the TND 700."

My point is, you are making an assumption that these new laptops have had their mA output lowered, simply on the basis that the TND 700 doesn't work with these particular laptops. That's a really big leap to make based on such limited evidence. What has been done to verify this? What deliberate and painstaking steps have been done to eliminate all the other possibilities? Do all other high-power USB devices also fail to with with these particular laptops? If so, that would support the statement, but if any other high-powered USB devices work, then the answer must lie elsewhere.

Have the chipsets of these laptops been identified and compared? The BIOS versions and dates? On many computers with multiple USB ports, one may be a slow speed port that will only output too mA to a bus-powered hub. Try another port. The Device Manager in Windows will tell you if a hub or port is 100mA or 500mA, and it will tell you which devices are plugged into them, and those device's power requirements. Since the device can bee seen on some laptops but not others, and since the USB standards are almost certainly complied within these new laptops, the likely culprit is some chipset or BIOS commonality.

I would love to see screen caps or get the information on the drivers, tho, dates and versions of each, since you say all USB devices use the same driver, including the mouse and the TND 700.

 

[cc194217]

Certain things I cannot give up about the TND 700 due to an NDA.

But, what is known.

All the laptops in question are;

64bit
Win 7
newer machines (2009/2010)
2.0 ports

Dell could not give me any information about the Port and the current draw. He simply did not know as tech support.

I have narrowed it down to a few things that may lead Rand down the path so to speak.

But, thousands of the TND 700's have been sold, but less than 1% cannot connect to the laptops of the newer machines and only certain brands.

It could very well be a data bus issue. It is unknown at this time.

If anyone has this connection issue and would like to work with me then contact me.

Thanks,
Mark

 

[greg334]

Mark,
First this isn't personal. I too have about 38 years in the electronic world, starting out with tubes as a matter of fact.

Second it is a dumb design flaw. A money saving design flaw that is. The USB issue is an easy one to solve, redesign the unit.

Third they could have tested it with a digi USB board that provides up to 1 amp of power at the port and 6 amps external. The one I have is older and can measure a lot of neat things but nevertheless it will tell them right away if this is an issue.

Forth my client sent me the first one, it was replaced by the second one after it died. The second one died also - same circumstances. These both were on a Aglient 3631 power supply and monitored, so it wasn't a power issue - they just stopped working. I was instructed to write up what happened, what I think was the reason why and my recommendations.

Fifth my cleint talked to some guy named Muscatle at RM, I didn't catch his first name but he may solve the issue with the DOA units for another go around.

Sixth my issue isn't even with the unit, it is with the lack of credible support both with the unit and on the website. BUT because you brought up a pretty plausible reason why so many people are having so many problems, it goes back to what I said - RM didn't do a good job.

finally I don't believe the requirements (guideline of what the product is supposed to do) were gathered with the average profession in mind. As I said, this isn't like a soccer mom and her brats trying to find a place to eat, but rather a sort of thing that should be considered dependable out of the box.


P.S. - 1% is still a lot when there isn't good support.

Who did you talk to at Dell?

Tech support, you try their engineering group?

Try HP?

Why are you talking to Dell and not RM?

You work for RM?

 

[cc194217]

I am not going to post on this issue anymore. You are the expert.

Thanks,
mark

 

[14Wheeler]

I am not going to post on this issue anymore.

Thanks,
mark

Cant blame you one bit........and NO, he's not

 

[cc194217]

3D mode.

You might find it freezes when you are about to do an exit (Lane Assist). It will unfreeze after you have made your turn. Running North up or Direction up is a better view.

Thanks,
Mark

 

[greg334]

Who said I was?

I surely haven't.

You assume too much, both of you.

Get a grip and stop worrying about me and my posts. Go and help people, that's what EO is about anyway.

Mark, a few of us are wondering, you don't want to answer the question, who do you work for? Is it RM or not?

 

[Turtle]

Certain things I cannot give up about the TND 700 due to an NDA.

I didn't ask for anything that would be covered by any NDA. BIOS versions of the laptops in questions, chipset versions, whether or not other high powered USB devices work, file versions and datestamps of the USB driver that all USB devices apparently use, none of these things would be prevented from being disclosed by a non-disclosure agreement. In fact, this is precisely the kind of information that most manufacturers would want everyone to know about, so as to be able to quickly track down, or eliminate, the problem. I'm not new to beta testing, or alpha testing, or electronics either.

Dell could not give me any information about the Port and the current draw. He simply did not know as tech support.

Why would you ask Dell? All the USB ports are supposed to be built to standards, anyway. It would be far better, if RM hasn't done this already (and if they haven't, holy crap!) go to USB.org and utilize the diagnostic tools that will tell you all kinds of things. There's even a very nifty hardware USB 2.0 Loopback Plugs and USB Test Software that gives you a virtual cornucopia of information about your USB ports, including voltages, currents and port speeds. I've got one of these, it works great, and is a must-have for those who alpha and beta test USB stuff. An end-user beta tester that's testing end-user usability issues, maybe not. Still, it's no a bad tool for any computer geek to have. At $50 it can test ports on the computer, as well as hub ports.

It could very well be a data bus issue. It is unknown at this time.

Data bus issue? Wait... I'm confused. I thought it was a USB port current issue with the newer laptops not supplying the needed current to keep an active connection to the TND.

It would have been nice if they had created the TND from the ground up for truckers, and better utilizing their own mapping resources, instead of simply licensing the maps and basic routing from NavTeq, and then making a few modifications and adding some truck specific features and way points. Not only would the maps and routing be better optimized for truckers, the hardware problems could be eliminated before they happened, primarily with Dell 64-bit Windows 7 laptop, and those laptops which share the same BIOS and I/O chipsets.

 

[jimby82]

All the laptops in question are;

64bit
Win 7
newer machines (2009/2010)
2.0 ports

So seemingly, the one common variable that all these problematic systems share is the same operating system, namely the 64bit version of Windows 7. Is this a problem that is related to this particular version of the operating system? What happens if another O/S is installed on the laptops, such as 32bit Windows 7 or the 32 and 64 bit versions of Windows XP? Are any flavors of Linux supported?

If the problem continues to persist, then you are right back where you started from. If, however, another O/S is able to properly see and connect to the unit, then the problem would most likely be related to some incompatibility with the original O/S (Win 7 / 64). I would not be surprised if this were the case.

Not knowing the specifics of what Win 7 / 64 is actually capable of on the hardware level, it might be a instance where the O/S has the ability to reduce the amperage available to the ports. (Possibly an energy savings measure meant to increase battery run times?) And this ability may only be supported on certain particular motherboards or chipsets. As Microsoft traditionally seems to have "control issues", and this may be one of those instances where the O/S has a little too much control over the system.

Again, I don't even know if this is possible (O/S control of system voltage and amperage), but would suspect it might be.

Just sayin'

At the risk of sounding condescending, I assume this has been tried on the laptops in question? Were any of the "faulty" laptops able to see and connect using a different O/S?

 

[cc194217]

I am the Lead Beta tester, and I did not scroll down and see the question.. to answer your question since you want to know... No. I work out of my house doing this. I am retired.

I am glad a few know the TND so well. If you do not know how the mapping database is created - ask. More has gone into the mapping database than simply putting NavTeq data on it. Rand has overlaid their database also.

But, it still amazes me that someone can do a review on a TND that does not work and give an honest opinion to a client.

I have hundreds of TND's go accross my desk and yes some do have issues.

I see issues with users TND's and I am more than willing to work with them to resolve the issue.

Anytime anyone has an issue they are more than welcome to E-mail me. I am available 7 days a week, usually 14-16 hours a day.

If you are available at 2am, then I will be here at my desk to help you.

Thanks,
mark

 

[greg334]

I am the Lead Beta tester

So you are an employee of the company. You should disclose that fact right from the start, lead beta tester means little. Telling us that you actually work for them means more.

But, it still amazes me that someone can do a review on a TND that does not work and give an honest opinion to a client.

What's amazing?

I'm amazed that we have at least one dentist here on EO, one Physician and several Phds who drive trucks for Panther, FedEx and Landstar and I get criticized.

The instructions were clear; I was to write my experiences up and give an opinion to buy, wait or not buy - good bad or ugly. The document is based on the failing of the units and the lack of support, but also influence by the problems talked about here.

My client is satisfied, the work is finished and he has offered me more work. Can't ask for better.

I have hundreds of TND's go accross my desk and yes some do have issues.

Good for you, but I only had two and they failed.

I see issues with users TND's and I am more than willing to work with them to resolve the issue.

The users should not see any issues with USB products, the problems that you speak about is the design flaw and not one of laptops which may or may not have issues. The fix is simple which is commonly done and costs RM about $3 per unit.

This is not just my opinion.

Anytime anyone has an issue they are more than welcome to E-mail me. I am available 7 days a week, usually 14-16 hours a day.

So are you the support group too?

It is cloudy or foggy.

 

[cc194217]

Just in case you missed it.

"to answer your question since you want to know... No"

No means I am not an employee. No means the opposite of yes.

Thanks,
mark

 

[cc194217]

So your client sends you two bad TND's. You get no experience from testing them? Yet you qualify yourself to read posts, talk to Rand Support and make an honest opinion?

DieselBoss lists reviews on several truck navigation devices. He actually tests them in a live setting.

Send me your review of the TND.

You know as well as I do, a majority of posts are going to be negitive. Nobody talks about the good of a product.

I have several more years of working with the TND than just reading a few posts.

I take it upon myself to make myself available to the professional driver when he is available. I do this on my own. Rand does have their own Support team, but as the Lead Beta Tester, which means nothing to you, I can understand being a prior driver how the support is needed other than 8-5, M-F.

So, what you are saying is that computer companies never have design flaws. It is the flaw of the device trying to connect to the computer?

Have a nice day.

Mark

 

[Turtle]

As someone who has extensive alpha and beta test experience with both hardware and software, both paid and unpaid, including having the exalted title of Lead Beta Tester on more than one occasion, I can tell you that every time you tell people you are the "Lead Beta Tester" it becomes less and less impressive, because you are doing it to tell people, "Listen to me and don't question me, because I'm important!" It's not like I haven't read other posts from you in other forums.

I have several more years of working with the TND than just reading a few posts.

Years? Really? Years? Considering the time frame at which RM began development on the TND, that's one impressive track record.


"More has gone into the mapping database than simply putting NavTeq data on it. Rand has overlaid their database also."

Which is exactly what I stated when I said, "It would have been nice if they had created the TND from the ground up for truckers, and better utilizing their own mapping resources, instead of simply licensing the maps and basic routing from NavTeq, and then making a few modifications and adding some truck specific features and way points."

This is not a unit that was designed from the ground up for truckers. It was a unit that spent very little time in development (not even close to years), and was rushed to market before it was ready.

I (and others) have asked you some very specific questions dealing with basic troubleshooting and diagnostics, all of which you have avoided, which is not something a Lead Beta Tester would do if the primary concern is to identify, reliably replicate, and accurately report the problem, which is the primary job of any beta tester.

For example, what exactly is the mA output of these USB ports where he manufacturer has reduced the output? If you know, for sure, that they have reduced the output, then you should know, for sure, precisely what it is. Otherwise it's not a statement that should be made at all.

Another claim that I have a problem with is the one where users had increased the power output of their USB ports. Increasing the power output to the USB ports is all but impossible for most end users, as you'd have to rewrite a small section of the BIOS, edit the Power Management kernel of the OS, make hardware modifications to the motherboard, including the removal and replacement of two circuit board resistors, and make additional physical modifications to the USB port hardware itself.

The one thing a beta tester must not do is draw a conclusion on any assumptions or create any logical fallacies to support a conclusion, and then tout the conclusion as factual or tout the fallacy as if it means something (computer companies have design flaws, therefore... therefore what?). Few truckers in 'general trucking' are uber-geeks when it comes to computers, electronics, mapping programs and GPS, where they get down to the nuts and bolts of how and why things are done and not done, and what makes it all work. Some are, but very few. That's not the case in expediting where you have a much wider variety of backgrounds and expertise.A really kewl sounding phrase or a claim that sounds logical may wow some people in general trucking, but not so much here.

So you're the Lead Beta Tester. Great. You get to try out things before others do, and are in a position to help not only the end users with their problems, but report possible problems to Rand McNally. If you stick within that frame you're good to go, but if you try and expand that frame to make it something that it's not, you'll get called on it.

 

[cc194217]

Well, I bow down to you two. Since you two rule this forum and know so much.

 

[cc194217]

Well if you have read other threads, then you know I will bend over backwards to help a driver out. If you have talked to me on the phone, you would know I will stay on the phone till your issue is resolved.

mark

 

[Turtle]

Well, I bow down to you two. Since you two rule this forum and know so much.

Good. You should bow down. We need more people like you.

Man, there's no reason to go all "drama queen" on this. Just answer some of the questions and address some of the inconsistencies of your statement without all of the "I could tell you, but the NDA would make me have to kill you, but since I'm the Lead Beta Tester you should believe me without question" crap.

It's great, even admirable, that you give your time and knowledge to others in helping them with online and telephone technical support. I've done it in the past and continue to do so today. But none of that is relevant to the issues at hand in this thread, issues I might add that you are still avoiding in giving what should be very easy answers. I mean, good grief, what brands and models of laptops are we talking about here? I'm getting close to buying a new laptop, and I don't want to go out and ignorantly purchase one that has had the USB output power reduced by the manufacturer. As a beta tester and one who provides technical support, that little but of information should be at the very top of the list of information to get out there and let people know about.

 

[cc194217]

I cannot give you the answers you need in regards to mA of the laptops as they belong to users and cannot be looked at.

I do not wish to be mailing my digital meter all over the place. I would never see it again.

Rand suspects a current draw issue as with some users they have gotten their TND 700 to talk to their laptop via a USB power hub. Others have not.

I can say we have seen an trend. If you wish to know then E-mail me.

I have 7 testers on 64 bit, Win7 machines that are other brands and they seem to work fine.

Right now, the testing is being done at Rand, with me doing side research.

Their are some things unless Rand gives me the okay to talk about in the making of the TND, I cannot freely say.

I would be more than willing to send a test unit out to someone whom has the technical background and physical laptop that will not "talk" to the TND 700.

At first we thought it was a current draw issue as the USB power Hub resolved the issue, but in the course of the last few days we are leaning towards a data issue more.

I doubt Best Buy would let me play with their displays.

Until we can pinpoint the issue, I do not want to give out information that can be seen in a bad light against laptop companies.

Thanks,
mark

 

[Turtle]

Oh geez. Gimme a break. First, no one is asking you anything about the design and making of the TND. We, or at least I, am asking for the data that supports your statements of fact, such as "Power outputs for mA to the USB ports have been turned down." Where's the information to support such a statement? If you can honestly make that statement, then you should be able to support it without hesitation or reservation. Another is what's the power requirement of the TND 700? It won't be as much as is required for charging, but certainly a max figure can be found on the AC adapter.

"I cannot give you the answers you need in regards to mA of the laptops as they belong to users and cannot be looked at."

So you don't, in fact, know for sure, that the mA output of the ports have been turned down. Yet you state it like it's a stone-cold fact.


"I have 7 testers on 64 bit, Win7 machines that are other brands and they seem to work fine."

Do any of these 7 machines have the same BIOS or chipset versions as any of the machines that don't seem to work fine? Once the commonality of Win 7 and 64-bit were discovered, BIOS and chipset information should have been about numbers two and three on the information-needed list, which will quickly confirm or eliminate a major variable. Are they all of the same flavor of "Windows 7 & 64-bit with 4GB of RAM & an nVidia chip"? That's actually a pretty common combination and is one known to cause certain kinds of USB port problems. I think that's one I'd want to find out for sure, ASAP.


"At first we thought it was a current draw issue as the USB power Hub resolved the issue, but in the course of the last few days we are leaning towards a data issue more."

In other words, you don't know. It's fine to say "I don't know", you know. OK, so now you're looking at a data issue. Great. That must mean that even low powered USB devices will not work on these particular laptops. Is that correct? Because if a high powered device will not work due to a data issue, then neither will anything else. That doesn't really explain how Windows knows there's something connected to the port, but cannot identify it, tho. If there is a data issue, then it wouldn't know if anything is connected to it. The "unknown device" is a dead giveaway that there's something there, the OS knows it, but no device driver has been installed to identify the device. A data issue is way down on the list of causes of the "unknown device" error.


"Until we can pinpoint the issue, I do not want to give out information that can be seen in a bad light against laptop companies."

Why not? The TND either works with this or that brand and model of laptop, or it doesn't. Why it doesn't work is irrelevant for the purposes of informing people that it doesn't. What you're saying is, in effect, "It doesn't work with some laptops, because the laptop manufacturers have a design flaw or they have reduced the power output of the UBS ports, but I'm, not going to tell you which laptops are bad, 'cause I can't prove a thing. We're only guessing at this point." That certainly doesn't put any laptop companies in a bad light, but it makes Rand look like they're more afraid of their own product that Toyota is to admit they've got a software problem instead of the mechanical problem BS they're sticking with.

If what you are saying about these laptops and OS combinations are true, even if it's a trend and not absolutely repeatable in all cases, that's the exact kind of critical information that is required to properly troubleshoot an issue. And it doesn't put anyone in a bad light. But refusing to mention the affected brands and models puts the spotlight squarely on Rand and the far greater likelihood that the problem lies not with the laptops, but with either a software or hardware design flaw with the TND. If the TND 500 exhibits the same issues with the same laptops, that would also go a long way in narrowing down the issue. But when troubleshooting and diagnosing a connectivity problems with a computer, the very first thing that needs to be made known is which makes of models of computer you're talking about, CPU, motherboard, BIOS, chipset, everything about the computer or computers. It's no different than you asking someone what the serial number is on the back of their unit.