Question Dr. lose child to CPS

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Re: Question Dr., lose child to CPS

If forced vaccinations have been present for years, then why do we have a 60% participation rate, instead of a 100% participation rate, as would be the case with forced vaccinations?

The answer, of course, is that forced vaccinations don't exist, and never have. Same goes for the rest of your "facts" stated above, as they're all wrong, too. Every one of them.
 

xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
"Obamacare preview perhaps"?

Actually....this has very much to do with Obama care potential. I love those people who decide how this relates, without actually reading what provisions are in the bill. (or have you?) This scenario is most definitely covered, as the government agency will decide what will be treated or not, and whether it will be treated, or not.

Too much CNN and Fox will lead one to this type of apathy and indifference. The OP is an accurate account of things to come, and remember.....these people do things well before a bill is written and forced vaccinations have been present for years.

Think you control what happens to your child these days? CNN is looking for you, or perhaps Fox news has a position you could snuggle into. After all, freight is kinda slow. ;)

Nice try i haven watched tv news in almost a year or for that matter the radio networks either.

Sent from my Fisher Price ABC-123.
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Re: Question Dr., lose child to CPS

The Military is most definitely forced, while numerous instances of mothers who refused to have their newborns vaccinated were paid a visit from government agency's. Let's put it this way, in most cases, you must have the proper paperwork and wavers in hand to deter the vacs given at the hospital to a newborn. I did not say "every person is forced to vaccinate".

As for the "facts" I listed above? In what facts do you infer? Let me make it simple for you...... there is an agency set up for this, don't vaccinate, you'll likely get a visit.

Sigh......we've all heard of the person who erroneously yells fire in a theater, and this is considered a crime. Most assuredly, it should also include the person who tells everyone to be calm and remain seated, when a fire is present.

Either read the bill and know what is present....or at least dispute things following some research? Schooling oneself in preparation for debate requires you know at least some of what this bill contains. It's over 2000 pages, so good luck. Excerpts will do, if your so inclined to dispute.
 
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xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Re: Question Dr., lose child to CPS

There's still the eo soapbox to bring me down.

Sent from my Fisher Price ABC-123.
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Re: Question Dr., lose child to CPS

There's still the eo soapbox to bring me down.

Sent from my Fisher Price ABC-123.

Ah C'mon Xiggi......we're just getting warmed up. Your one of the sane people here, and it's just a discussion. I don't let anything get me down these days, or we'd be totally in the dumps.

But I agree, it can be a bit of a downer....that's why I keep my visits SHORT. ;)

Never here, when out on the road. Just happen to be home and my Cardinals are fixin to whoop the mighty Mets. :rolleyes:
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Re: Question Dr., lose child to CPS

The Military is most definitely forced,
As a condition of being in the military. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Don't want to be vaccinated, don't join the military. When you sign up you have the opportunity to express either medical or religious objections to being vaccinated, and are given the appropriate paperwork to document the waiver. If you do not object at that time, you have given the military your authorization to vaccinate you as necessary. If you do object, they don't have to let you in.

...while numerous instances of mothers who refused to have their newborns vaccinated were paid a visit from government agency's.
And in those rare instances, the mothers still weren't forced to have their children vaccinated.

Let's put it this way, in most cases, you must have the proper paperwork and wavers in hand to deter the vacs given at the hospital to a newborn. I did not say "every person is forced to vaccinate".
It's true that you must fill out a waiver of refusal, and check which vaccinations you are refusing, but that's not really the same as being forced, now it is? And no, you didn't state that "every person is forced to vaccinate," you stated "forced vaccinations have been present for years," which is not true.

As for the "facts" I listed above? In what facts do you infer?
All of them that you stated.

Let me make it simple for you...... there is an agency set up for this, don't vaccinate, you'll likely get a visit.
What agency?

Sigh......we've all heard of the person who erroneously yells fire in a theater, and this is considered a crime. Most assuredly, it should also include the person who tells everyone to be calm and remain seated, when a fire is present.
It most assuredly does. But what does this have to do with anything that's being discussed here? I mean, other than nothing.

Either read the bill and know what is present....or at least dispute things following some research? Schooling oneself in preparation for debate requires you know at least some of what this bill contains. It's over 2000 pages, so good luck. Excerpts will do, if your so inclined to dispute.
You should better school your own self. The Affordable Care Act is 906 pages, not 2000. Have you read it? I have. Anyone can, it's right here.

You stated, "this [the situation in the OP] has very much to do with Obama care potential." You went on to state, "This scenario is most definitely covered, as the government agency will decide what will be treated or not, and whether it will be treated, or not." Since you know the bill so well, please cite the relevant text of the bill that says this. Also, what agency?

I love those people who decide how this relates, without actually reading what provisions are in the bill.
I love it, too, especially when they say they're read the bill and it's clear to those who have read the bill that they haven't at all, and instead are getting their conclusions spoonfed to them as "facts" from wacko Web sites that they agree with. I'll bet you believe this, too. A lot of people do.

Obamacare is incredibly bad legislation, but it's bad enough as it is, on its own, without even having to try and make it worse by making stuff up about it.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Re: Question Dr., lose child to CPS

Obamacare is incredibly bad legislation, but it's bad enough as it is, on its own, without even having to try and make it worse by making stuff up about it.

Exactly! As the absurd made-up crap gets debunked it makes the Affordable Care Act look less ominous and almost appealing in comparison.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Child Protective Services are state and local agencies. These agencies are not part of the Federal Government and are not controlled by Obama or Obamacare. If all of the CPS agencies have run amok, then there is only one way to rein them in; create a federal agency to oversee all state and local CPSs.

Maybe the Department of Homeland Security could run the new CPS. It could become another branch, much like the TSA. The new CPS could force those infant terrorists to get immunized thus preventing them from spreading chicken pox, mumps, diaper rash, rubella and kennel cough to unsuspecting real Americans. The new CPS could also interface with the TSA and keep these miniature bio-hazards from boarding planes.
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Forced into vaccination (to me) does not mean being strapped to a gurney by a bunch of crazed goons in order to drive a needle into your arm. What is being proposed here is this: If your told to sign a waver or opt out of something in order to join or participate, and you must be vaccinated in order to do so, it is a measure of being forced into making a decision to vaccinate, or not. While it's a fine line, one would think telling the Military or other entity your not going to get the shots....and then being told you cannot participate is force enough for me, not to mention the numerous instances whereby others have been denied entrance or removed from participation because they refused the shots.

As for Snopes......I would not trust one thing they have to say. They tend to debunk things in which I know cannot be debunked and are absolute fact. Wacko websites? Here's my take on that one; the truth lays somewhere in middle. Read some absolute outlandish stuff and the Internet is full of ridiculous claims and theories. However, to find truth one must weigh the offerings of alarmist with those who tell you to remain calm, there is no fire in the building.

Put another way, had the populace been a little more alert and informed, some of this stuff would never have come to pass. The talking heads work for the very people who control the information and there's a reason for no real debate. Bills passed without having been read? Riders inserted into bills at last moment? We have to pass it to find what's in it?

In the end, I don't really care because it's what I call The Big Show. Most of these bills are so broad based in language as to warrant alarm. The potential of the language is the target here and one cannot debate vague and fuzzy wording, as it can easily be arbitrary, and is written as such.

We have a thick little green book which outlines the rules for trucking. Yet, ask five DOT officers the same question on enforcement....you'll likely get five different versions. It's the same here.

http://www.leadertelegram.com/blogs/tom_giffey/article_c9f1fa54-d041-11e1-9d01-0019bb2963f4.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...1eec914-bcf9-11e2-9b09-1638acc3942e_blog.html

The final passage bill does appear to be a slimmed down 900 computer pages. Original draft appears to have been the 2000 range and who knows what the actual printed number is? So one could print it to be 500 or 5000 pages. Guess it would depend on print settings and font. Since members who voted themselves an opt out, of they're own bill, might lead one to believe it's not good......no matter the page amount.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Forced into vaccination (to me) does not mean being strapped to a gurney by a bunch of crazed goons in order to drive a needle into your arm. What is being proposed here is this: If your told to sign a waver or opt out of something in order to join or participate, and you must be vaccinated in order to do so, it is a measure of being forced into making a decision to vaccinate, or not.
But that's not what you said. What you said was, in very matter-of-fact fashion is, vaccinations in "the Military is most definitely forced."

Life is chock full of choices and decisions. If you want to participate in the military, you have to participate under their rules. You can't have your cake and eat it, too, and participate in the military and do so under whatever rules you feel should apply to you and then ignore the ones you don't like. If you want to participate in the EO Forums, you can't pick and choose which part of the Code of Conduct you want to abide by.

This is one of the reasons why it's so frustrating, and generally futile, to try and have a sane, intelligent conversation with someone like you. You make some outlandish statement of fact, which isn't fact at all, and then when asked to provide proof, or at least something substantiating the claim, you either ignore the question of providing proof and pretend it was never asked, or you create new conditions to make the "facts" conditional in some narrow scope.

First it was, very matter-of-factly, "forced vaccinations have been present for years." When that turned out to not be true, it became, oh, yeah, well, "numerous instances of mothers who refused to have their newborns vaccinated were paid a visit from government agency's. (sic)" When that turned out not to be evidence of forced vaccinations, an exception to the rule was created and it became narrowly conditional with, "the Military is most definitely forced." When that turned out not to be true, it became, "a measure of being forced into making a decision to vaccinate, or not." Now it's become a "fine line" of having to make a decision one way or the other, as if having to make a decision (having the ability to choose) is the same being actually forced to be vaccinated.

I'm still waiting on answers to the questions you've ignored and are pretending they were never asked. Like, what agency? Also, since you've read the bill and know it so well, and know to a certainty that the scenario in the OP is "most definitely covered" under Obamacare, it should be an absolute piece of cake to provide the relevant text of the law that shows exactly how the scenario is covered. It should be equally easy to provide the text of the bill that states the government agency (what agency?) will decide what will be treated or not, and whether it will be treated, or not.

As for Snopes......I would not trust one thing they have to say.
For some reason, that doesn't surprise me one bit.

They tend to debunk things in which I know cannot be debunked and are absolute fact.
Then it should be stupefyingly easy for you to provide three examples of absolute fact that Snopes has tried to debunk, knowing, of course, that if something is an "absolute fact" that it is therefore unconditional, not limited by restriction or exception, and not subject to doubt or question. I'm sure you'll ignore this request, too, because you can't provide even one example of absolute fact that they have debunked.

Wacko websites? Here's my take on that one; the truth lays somewhere in middle. Read some absolute outlandish stuff and the Internet is full of ridiculous claims and theories. However, to find truth one must weigh the offerings of alarmist with those who tell you to remain calm, there is no fire in the building.
Yet you are betrayed by your own outlandish statements, statements with no room for a middle, no room for the actual truth.

When I read many of your posts, for some reason the following quote comes to mind:

You know, and I know, that chaos and bedlam are consuming the entire world! UV light waves are only the beginning, Tom. We have an inch of topsoil left. Sexually transmitted diseases, deforestation, irreversibly progressive depletion of the global gene pool. It all adds up to oblivion, pal. Governments will fall, anarchies will reign. It's a brave new world.
[SUP](100 Moot Points to anyone who knows where the quote is from.)[/SUP]
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The final passage bill does appear to be a slimmed down 900 computer pages. Original draft appears to have been the 2000 range and who knows what the actual printed number is? So one could print it to be 500 or 5000 pages. Guess it would depend on print settings and font.
No, it doesn't depend on the print settings and the font used. It's 900 pages, computer or otherwise. It's a PDF file, the same as a printed book at Barnes and Noble. The PDF file has embedded print settings and fonts so that the document looks and prints the same regardless of the device used to print or view it. That's why the PDF format is used instead of, say, Microsoft Word. 906 pages is 906 pages, be it on a computer or hardcopy printed.

Since members who voted themselves an opt out, of they're own bill, might lead one to believe it's not good......no matter the page amount.
Like I said earlier, the law is a bad one, and it's a bad one all on its own merits without having to make up stuff to make it look bad. As Moot noted, people make up stuff about Obamacare, and when they turn out to be false, people go, "Oh, the actual law isn't as bad as I thought." Wackos keep crying wolf about Obamacare, and eventually people stop listening to them, even when they cry about something that's valid. When that happens, the perception evolves to becomes that of Obamacare isn't nearly as bad as it actually is, and people are duped again, thanks to the wackos who are shooting themselves in the foot by making things up about Obamacare in an attempt to make everyone hate it as much as they do. I do love a good irony.
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
My My....such a rant. First of all, I do not need to further a point which has already been made. I don't answer the silly question because you speak in absolute terms and I suppose general terms for conversation. Have we not gone over this?

The explanation of my meaning of forced vaccination has been stated. It's of my opinion anytime you are denied entry or participation by refusing the shots, you must come to the realization that if you want to be in the gang.....you'll have to comply. I call that force, and questioned answered.

Eight-year-old girl to be given forced vaccinations against mother's will after court ruling

Brave Nurses Lose Jobs to Stand on Principle and Refuse Forced Vaccinations | Health Impact News

Example after example can be found. Now, if your definition of forced is the gurney scenario....you can rant on some more.

Again with snope/dope...

Allied Liberty News: Snopes bias exposed

A plethora of examples from this silly "fact or fiction according to us" website.

As for the Op and Obama care? What do you not understand about the medical profession, Fed Gov controlling states through mandates and money, and all like manner of things outside the box. This he said/she said, what do the words mean to you, and how absolute everything is; has once again become a bore. While I enjoyed the nice little twist you placed on progression of conversation here......it's time to get some work done.
 
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Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Gotcha on the font settings and PDF. I was referring to the possibility of someone printing it to appear as more pages.

"I do love a good irony."

Me to! Especially those I dream up myself and then pull out of a hat. Presto, self made knowledge.
 

xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
My My....such a rant. First of all, I do not need to further a point which has already been made. I don't answer the silly question because you speak in absolute terms and I suppose general terms for conversation. Have we not gone over this?

The explanation of my meaning of forced vaccination has been stated. It's of my opinion anytime you are denied entry or participation by refusing the shots, you must come to the realization that if you want to be in the gang.....you'll have to comply. I call that force, and questioned answered.

Eight-year-old girl to be given forced vaccinations against mother's will after court ruling

Brave Nurses Lose Jobs to Stand on Principle and Refuse Forced Vaccinations | Health Impact News

Example after example can be found. Now, if your definition of forced is the gurney scenario....you can rant on some more.

Again with snope/dope...

Allied Liberty News: Snopes bias exposed

A plethora of examples from this silly "fact or fiction according to us" website.

As for the Op and Obama care? What do you not understand about the medical profession, Fed Gov controlling states through mandates and money, and all like manner of things outside the box. This he said/she said, what do the words mean to you, and how absolute everything is; has once again become a bore. While I enjoyed the nice little twist you placed on progression of conversation here......it's time to get some work done.

Ok i have to ask how one wrong listing at snopes proves a bias? Maybe it proves laziness on some employees part or proves someone screwed up the docket search term. Not saying snopes is or is not but one single example of a wrong answer in no way proves a bias unless maybe someone is searching for an answer to confirm their prior belief.

Sent from my Fisher Price ABC-123.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
My My....such a rant. First of all, I do not need to further a point which has already been made.
That's a euphemism for "I refuse to provide proof for the outlandish statements of fact that I make."

I don't answer the silly question because you speak in absolute terms and I suppose general terms for conversation. Have we not gone over this?
You don't answer the question because you can't. Otherwise you would. If you were speaking from fact rather than belief, it would be exceedingly easy to state which agency. If you suppose general terms for conversation, then it would really be way better if you wrote them in qualified generalities instead of absolutes. Otherwise all you're doing in backpedaling with that answer. Asking which government agency is not a silly question. It's a valid question.

The explanation of my meaning of forced vaccination has been stated. It's of my opinion anytime you are denied entry or participation by refusing the shots, you must come to the realization that if you want to be in the gang.....you'll have to comply. I call that force, and questioned answered.
Would have been better if you had posted that in the first place, instead of the ludicrous statement you made.
An extreme and rare example....from Australia? Really?

Yes, of rare exceptions to the rule, and even in the case of the nurses above, they weren't vaccinated.

Now, if your definition of forced is the gurney scenario....you can rant on some more.
Well, my definition of "forced" is to be compelled to do something against your will, since, you know, that's what forced means.

OK, first, one rare exception does not prove the rule. It absolutely does not prove they tend to do anything, much less "tend to debunk things in which I know cannot be debunked and are absolute fact." Two, that's not even proof that Snope debunks absolute fact, or even that they are biased. The example is an accusation that they lied, with the accusation and the "letter" he wrote to Snopes, yet nothing of Snopes showing where they lied, no proof whatsoever that they got it wrong.

You know why? Because it's made up. Purely fabricated. A stone cold lie. Funny that, a lie about someone else lying. Gotta love it. And you believe it, which is even funnier.

The fact is, the WND articel had to be pulled and rewritten, because it, too was a fabrication based upon faulty research and bias. They backpedaled faster than you have. From the WND regarding the dockets: "Those cases, in fact, were a series of unrelated disputes pending before the Supreme Court," the disclaimer states, "and the references have been removed from this report."

WND deleted the original article and three days later replaced it with a completely different article on another subject.

snopes.com: Elena Kagan Tied to Obama's Birth Certificate?

A plethora of examples from this silly "fact or fiction according to us" website.
A plethora of examples of bias, perhaps, but none of Snopes debunking or attempting to debunk an absolute fact. Not one.

As for the Op and Obama care? What do you not understand about the medical profession, Fed Gov controlling states through mandates and money, and all like manner of things outside the box. This he said/she said, what do the words mean to you, and how absolute everything is; has once again become a bore. While I enjoyed the nice little twist you placed on progression of conversation here......it's time to get some work done.
This is not a he said/she said, it's me calling you out on a bald-face lie that you refuse to support. You stated, without generalities or reservations, the absolute fact of, "This scenario is most definitely covered, as the government agency will decide what will be treated or not, and whether it will be treated, or not."

That's a lie. "This scenario is most definitely covered..." is not a general statement, it's a statement of absolute fact. And it's one that you cannot prove in any way, shape or form. "as the government agency will decide what will be treated or not, and whether it will be treated, or not," is also a lie, because that is not in Obamacare. It's a common, rational and valid fear of Obamacare that it might happen, but it's not a fact by any criteria you choose to apply.

I still find it incredibly ironic that you would pen such a silly paragraph:

"Either read the bill and know what is present....or at least dispute things following some research? Schooling oneself in preparation for debate requires you know at least some of what this bill contains. It's over 2000 pages, so good luck. Excerpts will do, if your so inclined to dispute."

Ironic because you haven't read the bill or the law, and instead have gotten your information from Bloggers who haven't, either. Ironic because you haven't done any credible research on the subject. Ironic because you failed utterly to school yourself in preparation for debate, display zero critical thinking skills, and have no clue of what the bill actually contains. Ironic because you believed, completely, that it's at least 2000 pages, not because you read it as you implied, but by virtue of some biased like-minded Blogger telling you so. Ironic because after requesting excerpts to prove a negative, you refuse to prove supporting excerpts to substantiate your claims.

I can imagine that you are bored.
 
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Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Man, I never thought I could mix so much fun while working on the van. Let's take a break and sum this up with a few points (of course they will not be valid because someone will simply say they're not) :rolleyes:

These same tactics were used when the Fed Reserve was being laid, the IRS formed, JFK was being questioned, and many other so called "theories " were being tossed about. Snopes will come up with enough factual information to remain credible to those who want to reference that venue. I choose not to reference it because they simply debunk things which I know are true. It would do absolutely no good to list those things because the aforementioned actually believe this tripe and the circle begins again.

Believe what you want, I say.

Same people, same usual suspects, and same attempts to debunk. There's good reason a growing number of people now do not believe what was once tantamount to mainstream thinking. More and more understand they were snoped, uh er, duped into believing the rhetoric.

And this one?

"as the government agency will decide what will be treated or not, and whether it will be treated, or not," is also a lie, because that is not in Obamacare. It's a common, rational and valid fear of Obamacare that it might happen, but it's not a fact by any criteria you choose to apply.

Unbelievable.

Back to front seat removal and soon the Redbirds will be hitting the field. Fun day all around. :D
 
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davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
It really isn't a matter of what the "usual suspects" say or don't say. In this case it is relatively easy as the majority of answers are in the current bill. Some things as time passes may change, but it is in black and white. I would go to the government site itself rather than read a interpretation of it. Or if you do, the old saying applies, "trust but verify".
 
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