Planned Parenthood's Problem vs. Capitalism

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
The disruption Uber has brought to the taxi business is coming to the abortion industry. In the U.S., over 70 percent of all abortions are performed by doctors at various types and sizes of clinics and hospitals. Needless to say, any improvements in abortion efficiencies will have a cascading positive impact on all corners of the world’s largest and most dynamic economy. The last time the U.S.abortion industry experienced revolutionary changes was in the 1930's, when the coat hang wire was replaced by the vacuum method which induced remarkable efficiency gains. We are now at the cusp of a similar revolutionary transition in the abortion industry with UberFetus.

Picture this: a medical research facility in Ann Arbor needs some fresh stem cell soup pronto. A 13 year old girl in Detroit is 10 weeks pregnant and could use some money. UberFetus can now connect the girl directly to the research facility. The girl is happy, as she can now get an abortion directly at the research facility plus money for her fetus. The medical research facility is happy because they can get fresh stem cell soup on an on-demand basis. UberFetus is happy as it has created a new business opportunity in the market helping efficiently connect demand to supply, and eliminating several middlemen like Planned Parenthood. Moreover, fetus users are billed immediately and women are paid immediately, and the transaction is executed in a swift and seamless manner with UberFetus. Getting knocked up has gone high tech. Turn that unwanted pregnancy into cold hard cash with UberFetus.
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Moot does it again!

more%20claps__.gif
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The problem with all that is what is shown in the raw unedited video that was released. They released the full unedited video with the long-winded description about how PP is profiting from the sale of fetal tissue and how the video documents it. Then the video shows every claim to be a load of crap. I suppose because they thought no one would sit there and watch all that video.
Are we so assume you did sit there and watch all that video? Link please...maybe some of the gullible politicians and unwashed peasants would also like to see it for their further enlightenment.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Are we so assume you did sit there and watch all that video?
No, you should not. You really shouldn't assume anything. You shouldn't assume I watched the entire video any more than you should assume those who made the edited videos are telling the full and unfettered unbiased truth or that I should assume you saw the link that Muttly posted to the full, unedited video in the first place. However, if you'd like to know whether I watched all that video, feel free to ask and I will answer truthfully.

Link please...maybe some of the gullible politicians and unwashed peasants would also like to see it for their further enlightenment.
Well, Muttly already posted a link to the video in the 5th post in this thread.
I just assumed that you saw that.

Here's the direct YouTube link to the video.

And here's the unspun story at FactCheck.org where they muck up the entire conservative leg tingle with facts. You may want to steer clear of that link, now that I think about it.
 
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cheri1122

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Turtle is correct with regards to the funding. Just follow the money. Have to go with Hillary on this one :eek:. "the videos are disturbing". You say they did nothing wrong, but then why did they apologize? A thought to ponder. More will come out as they are in the infancy of these investigations.
But that aside, PP is basically a liberal religion. Mine as well call it what it is. They should enjoy the same tax exempt status that other religions do. Just no funding from the taxpayer. If it is a worthy cause just as churches do, they can raise the funds from people that support that position. Nothing complicated and no one denied. And again, taxpayers are subsidizing the medical components already through insurance.

They apologized for the "tone" of Dr N's comments, which sound callous and unfeeling to anyone/everyone who hasn't any experience in working with situations that people often consider "gruesome". Which is most of the gen pop, and Congress & the Senate, as well. It's "disturbing" if you aren't used to seeing 12 horrible things before breakfast, but to those who are, it's another day at work. Of course they have human feelings, and they share them in appropriate company, but the actors provided by Daleiden didn't portray it as that kind of occasion, did they?
As for tax exempt status, ever since Bush introduced "faith based initiatives", religion is being funded by taxpayers. They're the groups providing the abstinence only sex education that schools contract out, when they have not teachers on staff to teach the subject.
And Dalieden's 'Center for Medical Progress' [WTH kind of name is that for a "group of citizen journalists"?!] ? Also tax exempt.
Well, until the IRS finishes it's investigation, they are.But if the vids prove anything at all, what they really are is despicable liars.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
As demonstrated by a few responses I see, some don't have that ability to be objective.
Were your own recent responses part of what you considered in coming to that conclusion ?
 
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Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
However, if you'd like to know whether I watched all that video, feel free to ask and I will answer truthfully.

And here's the unspun story at FactCheck.org where they muck up the entire conservative leg tingle with facts. You may want to steer clear of that link, now that I think about it.
It's probably good advice to steer clear or just not waste time with that link, but I read the article anyway just to see what they had to say. It was interesting, but predictable.

So OK - did you watch all of the unedited version of the 5th video, or just base your statement on "facts" stated in the article in FactCheck.org?

If the latter is the case, I'd like to direct you to an excellent post about FactCheck.org made on Sept 30, 2012 and how the author went to considerable lengths to explain who they really are, their managing officers, and the purpose of their existence, i.e. - their agenda. The following quote pretty well summarizes his point:

"If you want to see some well-crafted, world-class political spin and deception by one of the world's foremost experts in political spin and deception, check out the facts on that one at FactCheck.org. It's a real hoot when you know the "rest of the story" - the truth - and puts FactCheck.org in a considerably different light. FactCheck.org quickly begins to look about as unbiased as MediaMatters.org."

If one wants an unbiased evaluation of these PPH videos, it won't come from FactCheck.org.


If you wanted to deceive people who are trying to differentiate between truth and lies on the Internet how would you do it? If you were extremely devious and had no conscience, you might set up a Web site with some official and unbiased sounding name that claims to be the encyclopedia of truth to be used as a tool for anyone who has the same biased view and wants to make believe to "back it up" with what they would like you to think is "indisputable fact." If you are really good at it you will use careful wordsmithing to avoid projecting bias in individual articles, and instead be selective in the facts you use and which facts you want to check.

That's precisely what FactCheck.org, and others like it do, and are. Most telling, perhaps, about FactCheck.org is the overall number and kind of articles they do publish. They have an awful lot of articles defending president Obama, and their criticisms of him are with regards to mostly inconsequential issues.


That's an interesting observation, and one that merits setting the stage of a real eye-opener (for many people) by bring up an interesting book on the very subject. I know that citing book titles and what they're about is about as snore-boring as a lengthy post of mathematical equations on wind resistance, but bear with me. It comes together pretty well, if I do saysomyself.

There is a book called The Obama Victory: How Media, Money, and Messages Shaped the 2008 Election. The book lauds the brilliance of how Obama used the media, the Internet in particular, to both raise money and get his messages out to people. It's a good book, a good read, albeit quite a biased one. The book was written by a woman named Kathleen Hall Jamieson. More on her later. It's good, trust me.

She also wrote a book called Everything You Think You Know About Politics…and Why You’re Wrong, which explores why the American public, seemingly so eager for "unspun" information about candidates and their positions, invariably ends up being and feeling manipulated by our political process. It deals with how political campaigns really work, and how well-crafted communications can make or break a campaign, how voting patterns can be both predicted and manipulated, and how campaign promises fit in with all of it.

In addition, she also wrote Dirty Politics: Deception, Distraction, and Democracy, which details how effective communication can both deceive and distract people while subverting the actual democratic process in making people believe the ideas they have been fed are ideas they came up with on their own. It claims to be an unbiased look at how the media manipulates information, but it is decidedly left leaning. She details the correct way to craft an attack ad so that it doesn't come off as being a mean, attack ad. But mostly she subtly demonstrates that 'what is shown is not necessarily what is seen, and what is said is not always what is heard', which is they key to successful manipulation. It is a decent book for someone wanting to get information on how to really watch the news and political campaigns, and for many a way to recognize when they are being manipulated. In fact, it is used as required reading in many high school and college political science and communications classes.

I bring up these three books to show that Kathleen Hall Jamieson is arguably one of the world's most foremost experts in communication and deception, political in particular, because she is. The woman really and truly knows what she's talking about. She is also an unabashed liberal, a socialist, and quite proud of it.

So, who, exactly, is this woman? Kathleen Hall Jamieson is the Elizabeth Ware Packard Professor at the Annenberg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania. She is also the Director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center.

The Annenberg School for Communications? The Annenberg Public Policy Center? Where have we heard that before? Oh, yes, I remember, FactCheck.org is a "Project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center".

So, we have one of the world's foremost experts on political deception, a socialist, in charge of the self-billed "non-partisan" FactCheck.org.

You think there might maybe, possibly be a slight chance that "non-partisan" might actually be a clever deception for political purposes? No? Yes?

But wait, there's more! Between 1995 and 2001 the Annenberg Projected funded massive public school reforms for 18 selected school systems that started out as a noble idea, but didn't really work out that way. One of the largest grants to one of the largest public school systems was the $49 million given to Chicago's public schools. The Chicago group in charge of the Annenberg Challeng was headed by a man named William Ayres, an associate professor of education at the University of Illinois at Chicago, and the founder of the Weather Underground, a self-described communist revolutionary group that conducted a campaign of bombing (with real bombs) public buildings (including police stations, the U.S. Capitol Building, and the Pentagon) during the 1960s and 1970s in response to U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

One of William Ayres' first actions as the head of the Chicago Annemberg Challenge was to appoint a Chariman of the Board for the Challenge. The person appointed to that position was a man named Barak Obama. Yeah, that one.

Over the years the Obama-Ayres association and connection has been proven to be a close one, with Ayres having direct input to Obama during his 2008 election campaign. Back during the Obama campaign days when questions were asked about the Obama-Ayers connection, Obama defenders would cite that the Annenberg for whom the foundation was named was conservative and a friend of Reagan. That's true, Walter Annenberg was an ardent conservative who wasn't hesitant to use his many publications to further a conservative view of things. But, in the last few years of his life as he gave direct control of the foundation to others, and most observably since his passing, the foundation has gone the way of supporting some views that are decidedly not in line with Reagan or any other conservative.

If you want to see some well-crafted, world-class political spin and deception by one of the world's foremost experts in political spin and deception, check out the facts on that one at FactCheck.org. It's a real hoot when you know the "rest of the story" - the truth - and puts FactCheck.org in a considerably different light. FactCheck.org quickly begins to look about as unbiased as MediaMatters.org.

The trick is figuring out which is unbiased, which is liberal, and which is conservative, because 'what is shown is not necessarily what is seen, and what is said is not always what is heard'.

For a very telling illustration of just how biased FactCheck.org really is, check out the "Viral Spin" page of their Web site. Every one of the stories either defends Obama directly, or has a defense of liberal bias. Not one story on there defends any conservative or a conservative issue. Not one.

Here's the bottom line: PPH is marketing fetal body parts and intact aborted bodies for a price - that's undeniable. Whether or not they make a profit is difficult to determine by their accounting methods, which no doubt will show a loss on those particular transactions since they are obviously aware of federal and state laws. Many organizations play these accounting games. But we need to keep in mind the money they receive for the sale of fetal bodies and their parts from research organizations or whomever is not the only source of funding for those procedures. Women pay them for performing the abortions and are counseled to donate the fetuses and/or tissues. Then they sell these donated items. On top of those funding sources they receive funding from governments. This all adds up to considerable profits for this organization - the "bottom line" to which their representatives so often refer. Conclusion: they don't need taxpayer funding and should not receive one dime of it.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It's probably good advice to steer clear or just not waste time with that link, but I read the article anyway just to see what they had to say. It was interesting, but predictable.
I warned you. :D

So OK - did you watch all of the unedited version of the 5th video, or just base your statement on "facts" stated in the article in FactCheck.org?
No and no.

If the latter is the case, I'd like to direct you to an excellent post about FactCheck.org made on Sept 30, 2012 and how the author went to considerable lengths to explain who they really are, their managing officers, and the purpose of their existence, i.e. - their agenda. The following quote pretty well summarizes his point:
Thanks for the compliments and for the really long quote. What I wrote about FactCheck.org was true then and it remains just as true today. However, just because someone is biased doesn't mean the information they have is worthless or should be summarily dismissed out of hand simply because of that bias. All it means is their information is given a clearer context, and it should be treated within that context. For example, Fox News. Just because they're biased doesn't mean every single thing they broadcast is worthless. Their opinions might be, and how they spin the fact might be, but the facts themselves are not worthless at all. The same holds true for FactCheck.org and even the wacko Media Matters and others on both extremes.

If one wants an unbiased evaluation of these PPH videos, it won't come from FactCheck.org.
I never billed it as an unbiased article (they did, tho), I simply offered it up as a means for you to read the factual contradictions between what was actually said and what was edited out and what was reported and believed at face value by too many people.

Here's the bottom line: PPH is marketing fetal body parts and intact aborted bodies for a price - that's undeniable. Whether or not they make a profit is difficult to determine by their accounting methods, which no doubt will show a loss on those particular transactions since they are obviously aware of federal and state laws. Many organizations play these accounting games. But we need to keep in mind the money they receive for the sale of fetal bodies and their parts from research organizations or whomever is not the only source of funding for those procedures. Women pay them for performing the abortions and are counseled to donate the fetuses and/or tissues. Then they sell these donated items. On top of those funding sources they receive funding from governments. This all adds up to considerable profits for this organization - the "bottom line" to which their representatives so often refer. Conclusion: they don't need taxpayer funding and should not receive one dime of it.
I don't disagree with any of that, but I agree most vehemently with your conclusion. It's entirely possible that PP is playing accounting games to show a loss on the tissue donations, since we know they are playing games with the accounting of federal funds already. But they aren't making much money on those transactions. There really and truly are considerable costs in handling, preserving, storing and transporting human tissue in a manner that it remains viable for research.

Abortion is a thoroughly nasty business regardless of whether they sell the tissues to recoup the costs of obtaining them and keeping them viable for research or just throw them in a hefty bag and into the dumpster. Those who are anti-abortion and particularly anti-PP will have problems with whatever is said in the edited or the raw videos, but the bottom line is the edited videos are largely nothing but lies and were edited explicitly to tell the lies they wanted to tell in the most powerful way they could come up with. It backfired. And I guarantee you they don't care. These are people who have bombed clinics, so getting caught in a lie isn't going to change the way they do things or their goals.

Planned Parenthood’s 3 percent figure has been gobbled up by the media and liberals (redundant, sorry) as proof positive that Planned Parenthood isn’t really about abortion. But if you take even a cursory look at Planned Parenthood’s own data, that claim begins to stink like the load of crap it is. Depending on where you get your numbers, Planned Parenthood performs somewhere between 27 and 40 percent of ever abortion performed in America. Even at the low end of 27%, that's a significant market share, if you will. Ford or GM would kill for that. The fact is that 51 percent of Planned Parenthood’s yearly clinic income, their only self-sustaining revenue source other than federal money and the private funding, comes from abortion, more than 300,000 abortions.

They state they performed "11 million services during nearly five million clinical visits." If that's true, then their abortion numbers start to creep, jump actually, to more than double at 6.6 percent of clinic visits were for abortions. In other words, 6.6 percent of all visits to Planned Parenthood result in an abortion.

Looking closer, Planned Parenthood claims that all those “services” it provides only go to 3 million women. So by it’s own admission, 11 percent of the women that visit a Planned Parenthood clinic in any given year obtain an abortion there. (They did refer people for adoptions, though, a whopping 0.0076 percent of the time). The math on their prenatal services shows unambiguously that they had just over 5,000 prenatal clients and performed an average of 6 prenatal services per client, versus well over 300,000 abortions. So either they're plugging in wrong numbers that contradict each other in the annual reports, of they're criminally incompetent.

According to PP's own annual reports, over the last 8 years their income has exceeded their expenses by an average of $90 million a year. PP doesn't provide much in the way of women's health other than abortion, despite their claims. They don't even provide mammograms. They'll tell you where you can go and get one, but they don't do them. They don't do them because performing mammograms are expensive. Most of the "other" services on the laundry list they perform are rather cheap to perform, many being listed as separate services even though they are part of the same service. They are also not a significant primary care provider in general. In their own recent reports, Planned Parenthood acknowledges that it provided primary care only to about 19,700 of its 3 million unduplicated clients. And these services have been trending downward for years.

No, abortion is their business model, and they need as much money from the government as possible to do it, which is why they claim they can't operate at all if their taxpayer funding goes away. If you really look at the revenue, they end up getting a little more than half their income from taxpayers. That's why they can't operate if that money dries up, and it's why their 3% number is a load of crap.

If you don't consider anything else, consider the fact that Obama and Congressional Democrats are willing to shut down the government if Planned Parenthood is defunded. That alone should tell you that it's probably worth defunding.
 
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cheri1122

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The people from the CMP have bombed clinics?

Hard to answer, as they aren't truthful about much - they changed their purpose from 'biomedicine charity' to 'a group of citizen journalists' after the IRS began looking at their actual vs purpose for tax exempt status.
But the Secretary of CMP is Troy Newman, who is also President of Operation Rescue, and OR has a long history of harassing women's clinics, including the bombing that killed Dr George Teller in Wichita.
Another member of CMP [which is a very small group] is the well known abortion protester Albin Rhomberg, who has been arrested numerous times for his version of 'protesting' [including disrupting a Ca Governor's inauguration].
Then there's the woman who released the 'news' about the vids: Cheryl Sullenger, a convicted felon for her attempt to bomb a clinic in 1988. [The fuse on her Molotov cocktail went out, or many might have been killed]. She served her time in prison, and is now working with Daleiden at his CMP front.
And there's Daleiden's close friend, Lila Rose, the originator of the 'sting' video tactics that are long on outrageous claims, but short on actual truth. But hey, it worked on ACORN!
These are the lovely folks who 'protest' at women's clinics, holding signs meant to shame the clients, shouting at them, writing down the women's license plate numbers, and, oh yes: running live feed video from the entrance, so the whole world can see every woman who walks into the clinics.
They call themselves 'sidewalk counselors' - what I call them isn't printable.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I warned you. :D

No and no.

Thanks for the compliments and for the really long quote. What I wrote about FactCheck.org was true then and it remains just as true today. However, just because someone is biased doesn't mean the information they have is worthless or should be summarily dismissed out of hand simply because of that bias. All it means is their information is given a clearer context, and it should be treated within that context. For example, Fox News. Just because they're biased doesn't mean every single thing they broadcast is worthless. Their opinions might be, and how they spin the fact might be, but the facts themselves are not worthless at all. The same holds true for FactCheck.org and even the wacko Media Matters and others on both extremes.

I never billed it as an unbiased article (they did, tho), I simply offered it up as a means for you to read the factual contradictions between what was actually said and what was edited out and what was reported and believed at face value by too many people.

I don't disagree with any of that, but I agree most vehemently with your conclusion. It's entirely possible that PP is playing accounting games to show a loss on the tissue donations, since we know they are playing games with the accounting of federal funds already. But they aren't making much money on those transactions. There really and truly are considerable costs in handling, preserving, storing and transporting human tissue in a manner that it remains viable for research.

Abortion is a thoroughly nasty business regardless of whether they sell the tissues to recoup the costs of obtaining them and keeping them viable for research or just throw them in a hefty bag and into the dumpster. Those who are anti-abortion and particularly anti-PP will have problems with whatever is said in the edited or the raw videos, but the bottom line is the edited videos are largely nothing but lies and were edited explicitly to tell the lies they wanted to tell in the most powerful way they could come up with. It backfired. And I guarantee you they don't care. These are people who have bombed clinics, so getting caught in a lie isn't going to change the way they do things or their goals.

Planned Parenthood’s 3 percent figure has been gobbled up by the media and liberals (redundant, sorry) as proof positive that Planned Parenthood isn’t really about abortion. But if you take even a cursory look at Planned Parenthood’s own data, that claim begins to stink like the load of crap it is. Depending on where you get your numbers, Planned Parenthood performs somewhere between 27 and 40 percent of ever abortion performed in America. Even at the low end of 27%, that's a significant market share, if you will. Ford or GM would kill for that. The fact is that 51 percent of Planned Parenthood’s yearly clinic income, their only self-sustaining revenue source other than federal money and the private funding, comes from abortion, more than 300,000 abortions.

They state they performed "11 million services during nearly five million clinical visits." If that's true, then their abortion numbers start to creep, jump actually, to more than double at 6.6 percent of clinic visits were for abortions. In other words, 6.6 percent of all visits to Planned Parenthood result in an abortion.

Looking closer, Planned Parenthood claims that all those “services” it provides only go to 3 million women. So by it’s own admission, 11 percent of the women that visit a Planned Parenthood clinic in any given year obtain an abortion there. (They did refer people for adoptions, though, a whopping 0.0076 percent of the time). The math on their prenatal services shows unambiguously that they had just over 5,000 prenatal clients and performed an average of 6 prenatal services per client, versus well over 300,000 abortions. So either they're plugging in wrong numbers that contradict each other in the annual reports, of they're criminally incompetent.

According to PP's own annual reports, over the last 8 years their income has exceeded their expenses by an average of $90 million a year. PP doesn't provide much in the way of women's health other than abortion, despite their claims. They don't even provide mammograms. They'll tell you where you can go and get one, but they don't do them. They don't do them because performing mammograms are expensive. Most of the "other" services on the laundry list they perform are rather cheap to perform, many being listed as separate services even though they are part of the same service. They are also not a significant primary care provider in general. In their own recent reports, Planned Parenthood acknowledges that it provided primary care only to about 19,700 of its 3 million unduplicated clients. And these services have been trending downward for years.

No, abortion is their business model, and they need as much money from the government as possible to do it, which is why they claim they can't operate at all if their taxpayer funding goes away. If you really look at the revenue, they end up getting a little more than half their income from taxpayers. That's why they can't operate if that money dries up, and it's why their 3% number is a load of crap.

If you don't consider anything else, consider the fact that Obama and Congressional Democrats are willing to shut down the government if Planned Parenthood is defunded. That alone should tell you that it's probably worth defunding.

You were more ambitious in putting the numbers out there. Couldn't do it on my phone. But it really is, "follow the money". lol:p
 
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Turtle

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That was really more for the benefit of those who think the math adds up. :D
 
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cheri1122

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http://robertreich.org/post/85556159055

Maybe facts like these have something to do with Obama's resolve.
Also the fact that many [maybe even most] PP locations don't even do abortions - the one I went to for years didn't. Also too, the women who have used PP will defend it fiercely, because it is a place where they feel welcome and cared for, in their own neighborhood, at a price they can afford, and that's something no other doctor's office or clinic provides.
I'm not even going to try to dispute Turtle's numbers, but I will say that what happened when Texas defunded PP is indicative of what the Republicans are ignoring: the effort to replace women's services has not been a success. Women can't find the services they need, and poor women can't pay for them. [Obamacare does NOT mean everyone now has decent insurance, and many who have insurance can't pay the deductible, so it's only good for emergencies].
While men argue about theories and dollars and ideologies, women will keep dying because they aren't getting actual care. That makes me sick, and it should make you sick too.
 

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
Maybe facts like these have something to do with Obama's resolve.
Without even looking I'd have to say that whatever facts are there have very little to do with Obama's resolve, especially since he commented several times how important PP is because they perform so many, oh, so many, mammograms every year. Facts? He couldn't care less.

the women who have used PP will defend it fiercely
There ya go. That's the Democrat's voting base. There's some resolve for ya. :D
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Hard to answer, as they aren't truthful about much - they changed their purpose from 'biomedicine charity' to 'a group of citizen journalists' after the IRS began looking at their actual vs purpose for tax exempt status.
But the Secretary of CMP is Troy Newman, who is also President of Operation Rescue, and OR has a long history of harassing women's clinics, including the bombing that killed Dr George Teller in Wichita.
Another member of CMP [which is a very small group] is the well known abortion protester Albin Rhomberg, who has been arrested numerous times for his version of 'protesting' [including disrupting a Ca Governor's inauguration].
Then there's the woman who released the 'news' about the vids: Cheryl Sullenger, a convicted felon for her attempt to bomb a clinic in 1988. [The fuse on her Molotov cocktail went out, or many might have been killed]. She served her time in prison, and is now working with Daleiden at his CMP front.
And there's Daleiden's close friend, Lila Rose, the originator of the 'sting' video tactics that are long on outrageous claims, but short on actual truth. But hey, it worked on ACORN!
These are the lovely folks who 'protest' at women's clinics, holding signs meant to shame the clients, shouting at them, writing down the women's license plate numbers, and, oh yes: running live feed video from the entrance, so the whole world can see every woman who walks into the clinics.
They call themselves 'sidewalk counselors' - what I call them isn't printable.
Newman didn't do any bombing. Neither did the other ones you listed. Yes, they used harassment methods, but none of them bombed anyone. Sullenger doesn't belong to CMP, so she is irrelevant.
 
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