Planned Parenthood's Problem vs. Capitalism

[RLENT]

The combination of services makes what they provide open to interpretation. That is done by design. Since we have a family medical clinic, most numbers I hear are somewhere between 20 and 25 percent. Not the three percent.

From what (kind of) sources ?

Just out of curiosity, does your clinic provide abortions ?

Or "crisis pregnancy counseling" ?

They may get closer to some hard numbers if they investigate what they are doing.

Apparently the Great State of Indiana just did:

Pence calls for Indiana Planned Parenthood investigation

Indiana closes investigation into Planned Parenthood

Apparently they weren't able to find any evidence of trafficking in fetal parts ...

Not bad ... considering the Gov is a Bible humper ...

Keeping in mind that she is a pro-life supporter, Marsha Blackburn provides some numbers but I have no idea what her source is? 898 abortions a day is a bunch.

http://blackburn.house.gov/news/email/show.aspx?ID=YPAIBXGWSECND2DKWXYYCHJEAQ

Mmmm ... yeah, well ...

Idiot Tennessee Rep Knows All The Christians Are Being Holocausted, Just Can’t Say Where

As far as 898 a day being a bunch goes, it sure ain't nothing ... but keep in mind that is out of a pool of around 62 million women who are of childbearing age (15 - 44, courtesy of CDC data) ...

To gain some perspective, that means that just 0.001448 percent of the above pool is getting an abortion @ PP on any given day.

Or, that in any given year, roughly only a maximum of 1.29677 percent of women in that pool above could have gotten an abortion (at any provider, not just PP)

The actual percentage (of individual women getting abortions) in the second instance, is likely lower, since some women may have more than one abortion in a calendar year.

My issue is not PP by itself, but how it is ran

If you were running it, what would you do differently ?

... and I'm not seeing a reason for taxpayers funding it.

Does your "clinic" accept any reimbursement or payment from the government (Federal, State, or local) for services rendered ?

 

[Turtle]

As far as 898 a day being a bunch goes, it sure ain't nothing ... but keep in mind that is out of a pool of around 62 million women who are of childbearing age (15 - 44, courtesy of CDC data) ...

To gain some perspective, that means that just 0.001448 percent of the above pool is getting an abortion @ PP on any given day.

Perspective? If you want some real perspective in order to come up with a really low percentage number, why not add all men of fathering age to the pool? And for that matter, the total number of ants, termites and crickets on the planet, as putting them in the pool makes about as much sense as putting non-pregnant women and all women who are pregnant but do not want abortions.

If you want a valid pool to compare the abortion numbers of Planned Parenthood to the rest of the abortions performed in the country, the pool need to consist solely of all pregnant women who actually get an abortion.

 

[RLENT]

Perspective? If you want some real perspective in order to come up with a really low percentage number, why not add all men of fathering age to the pool?

Ahhh ... because men don't have, and can't have, abortions ?

Besides, that isn't the typical standard (CDC, WHO) for how abortion is medically tracked: incidence per every 1,000 females of childbearing age (15 - 44)

The numbers simply are what they are ...

And for that matter, the total number of ants, termites and crickets on the planet, as putting them in the pool makes about as much sense as putting non-pregnant women and all women who are pregnant but do not want abortions.

The point - which seems to have escaped you apparently - was an illustration of actually how uncommon abortion actually is in the US, relatively speaking ...

The US has one of the lowest rates of abortion in the entire world ... and it is decreasing I believe ...

If you want a valid pool to compare the abortion numbers of Planned Parenthood to the rest of the abortions performed in the country, the pool need to consist solely of all pregnant women who actually get an abortion.

You consider that as a "valid pool" because it serves your agenda ... to illustrate a point you are trying to make.

That point is not the one I'm trying to make.

 

[Turtle]

Ahhh ... because men don't have, and can't have, abortions ?

Neither do women who aren't pregnant.

Besides, that isn't the typical standard (CDC, WHO) for how abortion is medically tracked: incidence per every 1,000 females of childbearing age (15 - 44)

That's all fine well and good, but we weren't discussing the per capita rates, we were discussing the number of abortions Planned Parenthood performs in relation to the ones performed by everyone else. It was part of that whole "market share" diatribe, remember?

The point - which seems to have escaped you apparently - was an illustration of actually how uncommon abortion actually is in the US, relatively speaking ...

The point didn't escape me at all. That's why I commented on it and suggested adding men to the pool to further inflate the irrelevant relevance of including women who aren't pregnant and/or don't want abortions in order to come up with a number that showed an even smaller percentage of commonality.

The US has one of the lowest rates of abortion in the entire world ... and it is decreasing I believe ...

I'm not sure what that has to do with the number of abortions performed by Planned Parenthood in relations to all abortions performed, but you're right, it is decreasing, and has been since the early 90s, right along with the decrease in overall pregnancy and birth rates and the increased availability and use of the "morning after pill."

You consider that as a "valid pool" because it serves your agenda ... to illustrate a point you are trying to make.

Well, you got me there. My agenda was, absolutely, to keep the discussion in the same context in which we have been discussing it, that being the context of Planned Parenthood's "market share, baby!" of performed abortions and the percentage of pregnant women who go to Planned Parenthood that wind up getting an abortion, all because of the <evil pejorative buzzword alert> agenda of refuting the ridiculous 3% figure and that equally ridiculous notion that Planned Parenthood isn't all about abortion.

That point is not the one I'm trying to make.

Yes, it's pretty obvious you are trying to deflect and divert the context to something else. I'm not sure why. Maybe you believe the 3 percent figure to be accurate? Maybe you believe those eleventy million services performed make up the bulk of Planned Parenthood's time and resources and that abortion is just an ancillary, "oh, by the way, we also do abortions" thing with them.

 

[davekc]

From what (kind of) sources ?

Just out of curiosity, does your clinic provide abortions ?

Or "crisis pregnancy counseling" ?

Pregnancy counseling yes, abortions no.

Mmmm ... yeah, well ...

Idiot Tennessee Rep Knows All The Christians Are Being Holocausted, Just Can’t Say Where

As far as 898 a day being a bunch goes, it sure ain't nothing ... but keep in mind that is out of a pool of around 62 million women who are of childbearing age (15 - 44, courtesy of CDC data) ...

To gain some perspective, that means that just 0.001448 percent of the above pool is getting an abortion @ PP on any given day.

Or, that in any given year, roughly only a maximum of 1.29677 percent of women in that pool above could have gotten an abortion (at any provider, not just PP)

The actual percentage (of individual women getting abortions) in the second instance, is likely lower, since some women may have more than one abortion in a calendar year.


If you were running it, what would you do differently ?

Transparent accounting procedures. Especially when relying on government support. If a for profit clinic used what they do, the IRS would have a field day.

Does your "clinic" accept any reimbursement or payment from the government (Federal, State, or local) for services rendered ?

Only for existing patients or specific referrals. Ocare changed that with reduced reimbursements. The move now is towards concierge services. Folks on assistance have access to several other clinics that can provide services.

However, this has little to do with what percentage of abortions that PP provides. They say three percent but it appears to be much higher. I think that is the overall point.

 

[RLENT]

Pregnancy counseling yes, abortions no.

But it's not religiously-motivated "crisis pregnancy counseling", correct ?

If a client asks for a referral to an abortion provider for an abortion, will your clinic provide it ?

Just trying to get an understanding and get a handle on what this clinic of yours exactly is ... you know:

... in the interests of transparency ...

Transparent accounting procedures. Especially when relying on government support.

One of the problems of relying on any source for information is the possibility of agenda. That, of course, includes Planned Parenthood itself.

In regards to the matter of abortion, this is particularly true, when dealing with those who have strong anti-abortion beliefs ... just as it probably is with those who have strong pro-abortion beliefs.

Even things that pass as legitimate news sites, will often pass off fantasy as fact:

Planned Parenthood funding: Did the GAO really find millions missing? - Politifact

The level to which some in the anti-abortion crowd will stoop is pretty well known - and has included terrorist violence and premeditated murder.

The Activists And Ideology Behind The Latest Attacks On Planned Parenthood

If a for profit clinic used what they do, the IRS would have a field day.

Can you cite any evidence - from a relatively non-biased source - to support that claim ?

Only for existing patients or specific referrals. Ocare changed that with reduced reimbursements.

Well, we gotta control that Federal spending dontcha know ... lol ...

Leaving out abortion for the moment, does your clinic provide any of the other services, that PP provides ?

The move now is towards concierge services.

Follow the money ...

Folks on assistance have access to several other clinics that can provide services.

Are these clinics government-funded ?

If so, what happens to these folks if you get your (apparent) wish that they are defunded ?

However, this has little to do with what percentage of abortions that PP provides. They say three percent but it appears to be much higher. I think that is the overall point.

You didn't really answer my question wrt who these "sources" were, where you got that info ...

 

[davekc]

But it's not religiously-motivated "crisis pregnancy counseling", correct ?

If a client asks for a referral to an abortion provider for an abortion, will your clinic provide it ?

Just trying to get an understanding and get a handle on what this clinic of yours exactly is ... you know:

It is a family clinic not a hospital. As for referrals, they are advised to contact their insurance provider because they would provide options verses what their plan dictates. Same with someone who has no insurance. They would have to contact the county health services.

One of the problems of relying on any source for information is the possibility of agenda. That, of course, includes Planned Parenthood itself.

In regards to the matter of abortion, this is particularly true, when dealing with those who have strong anti-abortion beliefs ... just as it probably is with those who have strong pro-abortion beliefs.

Even things that pass as legitimate news sites, will often pass off fantasy as fact:

Planned Parenthood funding: Did the GAO really find millions missing? - Politifact

The level to which some in the anti-abortion crowd will stoop is pretty well known - and has included terrorist violence and premeditated murder.

The Activists And Ideology Behind The Latest Attacks On Planned Parenthood


Can you cite any evidence - from a relatively non-biased source - to support that claim ?

No idea whether they are biased or not. Just follow how they account for things. That is the basis for launching another investigation. Most of it with how the accounting is done with regards to selling cadavers and tissue.

Well, we gotta control that Federal spending dontcha know ... lol ...

Leaving out abortion for the moment, does your clinic provide any of the other services, that PP provides ?

Since it is a family clinic and without reviewing every item, I would say most of them.

If so, what happens to these folks if you get your (apparent) wish that they are defunded ?

They either obtain free insurance or go to PP that is only funded through donations.

You didn't really answer my question wrt who these "sources" were, where you got that info ...

Asked and answered. In case you missed it. People here in the TN medical community. But again, none of it is really relevant as to whether you think that PP claim of only 3 percent of their services is for abortion and is accurate?

 

[cheri1122]

It is a family clinic not a hospital. As for referrals, they are advised to contact their insurance provider because they would provide options verses what their plan dictates. Same with someone who has no insurance. They would have to contact the county health services.

That's where the Tx experience is relevant: researchers at George Washington University have said that existing clinics would need to expand by 2-5X current capacity to cover the demand created by closing PP [and other women's health] clinics.
It's not happening, of course, and women are simply left to deal with it however they can. Since the women without insurance are the poorer ones, the loss of [effective] birth control results in a lot more unintended [and unwanted] pregnancies, and a larger drain on the social services to support them.
Well played, Texas.

 

[davekc]

I would agree with you prior to Ocare. Since they are suppose to have insurance, free or otherwise, no need to use taxpayer money twice. If it is a viable service, they can receive donations to operate like other religious medical places do.

 

[cheri1122]

I would agree with you prior to Ocare. Since they are suppose to have insurance, free or otherwise, no need to use taxpayer money twice. If it is a viable service, they can receive donations to operate like other religious medical places do.

Sure, they're supposed to have insurance. They're also supposed to have car insurance, and drivers licenses, and only drive to & from work after a DUI conviction.....
Even if they want to have insurance, what the decision makers call 'affordable' and what poor people can actually afford to pay for are often light years apart.
PP does get private donations [from people who support their goals, like me], but what makes you think those "other religious medical places" don't get taxpayer/government support?

 

[davekc]

I didn't imply that they didn't. My position with say Catholic hospitals would be the same as PP. Even if they did, two bad ideas don't make a right one. Just a place the federal government shouldn't be in. Just my opinion.

 

[Turtle]

They do, though. Crisis Pregnancy Centers are religious organizations, and they get a snotload of federal money, mostly via programs that teach Cheri's favorite method of birth control, abstinence-only education.

 

[cheri1122]

I didn't imply that they didn't. My position with say Catholic hospitals would be the same as PP. Even if they did, two bad ideas don't make a right one. Just a place the federal government shouldn't be in. Just my opinion.

The federal government is entrusted [sometimes foolishly, lol] with using tax monies to benefit the entire citizenry, including health and education. Aside from being the morally correct thing to do, it's also the fiscally smart thing to do: well educated people are self sufficient, and healthy people don't require more medical services than they can pay for.
Planned Parenthood advances both those goals.

 

[davekc]

The federal government is entrusted [sometimes foolishly, lol] with using tax monies to benefit the entire citizenry, including health and education. Aside from being the morally correct thing to do, it's also the fiscally smart thing to do: well educated people are self sufficient, and healthy people don't require more medical services than they can pay for.
Planned Parenthood advances both those goals.

Whether it is fiscally smart is quite debatable. As for PP, will have to see what comes out in these investigations. That might provide a clearer picture of what they are and aren't doing.

 

[RLENT]

Tread the linkages below with caution - you have been forewarned:

Fox News ******* Greg Gutfeld Will Keep Fetuses In Wastebaskets Where They Belong

Rick Santorum Knows Fetuses Are Cuddle Buddies, Not 'Medical Research'

... Ben Carson ... who knew ?

 

[greasytshirt]

Fertility clinics destroy viable fetuses all the time. Or they are donated for research (which results in their destruction). Yet no one is crying foul. I wonder why.

 

[cheri1122]

Fertility clinics destroy viable fetuses all the time. Or they are donated for research (which results in their destruction). Yet no one is crying foul. I wonder why.

We know why: because people who patronize fertility clinics are trying to have babies [like Nadia Suleiman, remember her?] which is what religion wants people to do. [Long as they're raised in the same religion, of course.] Also, Nadia being a glaring exception, people who patronize fertility clinics can afford to support political candidates - those treatments aren't cheap!
What I wonder is why no one is crying foul over the actions of David Daladien, the 'head' of CMP. He is a close associate of known terrorists [domestic, not foreign]. He spent years setting up his "gotcha!" videos, not just creating a phony company, [lying on the application for tax exempt status, naturally] but obtaining a California drivers license in an assumed name in order to attend private events sponsored by women's healthcare concerns. The security at those events is necessary, because of the terrorism perpetrated by Dalieden's associates, who have killed and attempted to kill numerous people engaged in lawful activities that they don't like. They also threaten and follow and harass innocent patrons and staff of women's clinics, every day of the week, but they are still free to continue being terrorists. Why isn't the media mentioning that? Who is the real villain, in this story?
PP has been investigated by several government agencies, and have found zero grounds for complaint. [Except in one clinic, where there was a disagreement about what constitutes the "second trimester", when the agency disregarded it's own written guidelines to call it a violation.]
Every single Republican who demanded an investigation and/or defunded PP over the videos owes an apology to PP and the women they don't care about, even while proclaiming themselves 'pro life'. They're just pro birth - and we know it.

 

[davekc]

A bad messenger doesn't necessary mean the message is bad.

 

[cheri1122]

A bad messenger doesn't necessary mean the message is bad.

Nope. But a message from known fanatics ought to raise some red flags, I'd think. Particularly when it's in the form of video, edited by those same fanatics. Reasonable people would want more info than the Republicans had before jumping to denounce PP.
Now that they're getting more info? Crickets.

 

[davekc]

There is no dispute that the whole thing is agenda driven. That doesn't mean the information is false. When they say edited, (I haven't seen the three or four hours worth of tape) so I don't know. So the question becomes, did they say those things or not? I haven't heard anyone say that part is false. That is where their problem is going to be. Even NBC (who is generally left leaning) said that their review was disturbing. So have to see what happens with their investigation. They have been investigated in the past, but I don't believe for these allegations.