Pending Violence?

[Turtle]

What did I blame Romney for, that he hasn't done?

Paragraph 4.

And I said a large part of the blame is due the Tea Party, who are not the same as OWS, as the TP is firmly ensconced in Congress, and quite upfront about their refusal to compromise.

Yes, I know you said that. But the Tea Party isn't even a small part of the blame, much less a large part. It's a symptom, therefore cannot be the problem.

But if you look at the compromises on ObamaCare, nearly all of them were on the side that isn't Democrat. ObamaCare itself was a massive compromise on the part of the Republicans, especially since the Democrats (lead by Reid and Pelosi) stated flatly that they would not compromise on getting this legislation through, that it was going to happen. Period. And they did just that. They crammed a sweeping health care bill down the throats of the American people that many Democrats didn't even want, and the only ones who really and truly benefit from is is the health care, financial and insurance industries.

Yes, it's a symptom, but symptoms sometimes need attention while the root cause is attacked, because it's the symptoms that make us miserable.

The problem is, no one is attacking the root cause. They're using the symptoms as a slight of hand diversion from the root cause.

I completely agree that both parties have become corrupt and dysfunctional, and that Obama hasn't been the catalyst for the kind of change we wanted - but epic failure? I just don't see it as that - I think he tried to make some things better for all of us, and I can't see Romney in that role at all.

Obama may have had good intentions, but good intentions are meaningless when the results are so abysmal. Yes, epic failure. He makes Jimmy Carter look like a friggin' ultra-competent genius.

I also believe some people decided Obama would fail before he even took the oath of office, and did everything they could to see that it happened.

Happens to ever president. All of them. The good ones overcome it, the bad ones don't. He don't.

 

[xiggi]

Totally agree. [But I usually agree with you, which is one reason Moot asked if I AM you, lol. The other is that last time we met for lunch, I tried a Cuban sandwich, with some urging from Gottago, and really liked it]

We have become more 'us against them' in the past few years, and I'd lay a fair portion of blame on the Tea Party, who consider compromise to be unacceptable - the moderate members on both sides of the aisle can't budge them. Senator Olympia Snowe [a moderate and respected Republican] among others, cited it as a specific reason for her unexpected retirement, so it's much worse than the usual difference of opinions. The attitude of meeting in the middle is nowhere to be found, and nothing gets done. [Though maybe the hackers' threat to release Romney's tax returns will prompt Congress to get working on cybersecurity now, lol.]
Turtle's observations are also worrisome, and the reason more people aren't screaming bloody murder over it is that we're more concerned with things further down Maslow's hierarchy, like food, shelter, and jobs. We're worried about having enough money to retire before we drop from exhaustion at age 85, and we're worried about our kids and grandkids who can't afford higher education, and we're outraged that Romney's advice to them is to "borrow from your parents" because he helped put so many of those parents out of work in the first place. Wall Street doesn't create jobs - it creates nothing but profit, and everything else is irrelevant in the pursuit: laws, morals, ethics, civic responsibility - none of that matters on Wall Street.
Much as I worry about Obama's extension of his 'secret' powers, I'm more worried about Romney, who is Wall Street personified. If he wins, the middle class will continue the slide to low wage jobs, where retirement and college are luxuries we can't afford, and THAT'S what people are angry about. We used to be able to afford a middle class lifestyle based on hard work, but it's becoming more and more impossible, no matter how hard we work. And the rich really are getting richer [and have been for decades], and Romney/Ryan would not just continue that trend, but accelerate it. Mention it, though, and it's 'hate success!' and 'class warfare!' They keep insisting that business needs more tax breaks to create more jobs, when it's never worked before, they blame the unemployed for the entitlement mentality: how dare they expect the money they paid into social security be returned as promised, they blame people who've lost their homes on 'buying more house than they could afford' when the evidence points to banks' illegal and unethical practices, [not to mention loss of jobs and major medical expenses], they put people out of work and then call them 'gimme goobers', for cryin out loud!
There may very well be civil war, because people are just fed up with being accused of wanting Socialism when we point out that we're all in this together, and most of us are working harder than ever just to stay afloat. The fortunate few keep promising prosperity will trickle down if we just work harder, but it isn't working out that way.
This isn't the country I want my grandkids to inherit.

I am not sure where your getting your info from but many of your statements are way of base. you state the tea party doesn't allow compromise. Please point out some liberal compromises for me in the last few years it does take two. Laying down and excepting everything the other party wants us not compromise.

Os has never been much of a republican except by name. My guess is the real reason she left is because the dems left her moderate views behind.

Your views on how jobs are created are just flat wrong. If lower taxes do not attract business why do so many companies flee overseas?

The last election obamas donations from wall street dwarfed those of the republicans but yet Romney is the wall street guy?

If we are all in this together then why must the.more successful pay higher taxes while more and more pay none. Doesn't sound like all in this together to me at all.

I have never heard anyone running for office state someone should not get ss they have earned.

Remember teach a man to fish?



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[davekc]

Totally agree. [But I usually agree with you, which is one reason Moot asked if I AM you, lol. The other is that last time we met for lunch, I tried a Cuban sandwich, with some urging from Gottago, and really liked it]

We have become more 'us against them' in the past few years, and I'd lay a fair portion of blame on the Tea Party, who consider compromise to be unacceptable - the moderate members on both sides of the aisle can't budge them. Senator Olympia Snowe [a moderate and respected Republican] among others, cited it as a specific reason for her unexpected retirement, so it's much worse than the usual difference of opinions. The attitude of meeting in the middle is nowhere to be found, and nothing gets done. [Though maybe the hackers' threat to release Romney's tax returns will prompt Congress to get working on cybersecurity now, lol.]
Turtle's observations are also worrisome, and the reason more people aren't screaming bloody murder over it is that we're more concerned with things further down Maslow's hierarchy, like food, shelter, and jobs. We're worried about having enough money to retire before we drop from exhaustion at age 85, and we're worried about our kids and grandkids who can't afford higher education, and we're outraged that Romney's advice to them is to "borrow from your parents" because he helped put so many of those parents out of work in the first place. Wall Street doesn't create jobs - it creates nothing but profit, and everything else is irrelevant in the pursuit: laws, morals, ethics, civic responsibility - none of that matters on Wall Street.
Much as I worry about Obama's extension of his 'secret' powers, I'm more worried about Romney, who is Wall Street personified. If he wins, the middle class will continue the slide to low wage jobs, where retirement and college are luxuries we can't afford, and THAT'S what people are angry about. We used to be able to afford a middle class lifestyle based on hard work, but it's becoming more and more impossible, no matter how hard we work. And the rich really are getting richer [and have been for decades], and Romney/Ryan would not just continue that trend, but accelerate it. Mention it, though, and it's 'hate success!' and 'class warfare!' They keep insisting that business needs more tax breaks to create more jobs, when it's never worked before, they blame the unemployed for the entitlement mentality: how dare they expect the money they paid into social security be returned as promised, they blame people who've lost their homes on 'buying more house than they could afford' when the evidence points to banks' illegal and unethical practices, [not to mention loss of jobs and major medical expenses], they put people out of work and then call them 'gimme goobers', for cryin out loud!
There may very well be civil war, because people are just fed up with being accused of wanting Socialism when we point out that we're all in this together, and most of us are working harder than ever just to stay afloat. The fortunate few keep promising prosperity will trickle down if we just work harder, but it isn't working out that way.
This isn't the country I want my grandkids to inherit.

Plenty of blame to go around on both sides. If your real concern is as stated, you would be better served by whomever is going to cut that debt down. If you are 16 trillion now, you better hope whoever is president doesn't keep adding to it. Obama by himself added 5 trillion just by himself in three and a half years. As the value of the dollar drops because we keep borrowing and printing money, your poor, disenfanchised, "gimme goobers" or anyone at the bottom of the food chain is going to get hurt. Each dollar will buy less. Your complaints are tied right to that debt and a bad monetary policy. Taxing the rich covers 4 days of interest on the debt. Not enough rich people.
Hiring teachers, green energy, and the list goes on doesn't create jobs. Keep the dollar strong and you won't have all these other problems.

 

[cheri1122]

Wow - you guys sure know how to pile on, lol. Let me see if I can answer some of your points:
Turtle: I'm sure every past Prez has faced the same attitude from the losing side, but not to the extent Obama has, not even close. and I agree that no one is attacking the root caus[es], but they never do, do they? They're forever addressing the easy part, and ignoring the real problem [as in No Child Left Behind, and the EOBR mandate, and a million other misguided 'fixes'] The biggest problenm with Obamacare is that we don't really know what it will cover, or how it will affect the state of medical care - but at least it's an effort to DO something about a huge problem, which is more than previous administrations did.
Ziggy: I get my info from a lot of places, including the ever popular Fox News, and from personal observation. The only place I don't go is the talking heads on the radio, because I prefer to read things [then I can go back and reread what I wasn't sure of].
The Tea Party made refusal to compromise or negotiate a part of their 'platform', and the freshmen legislators elected recently have stuck to it, no matter what their own beliefs or constituents wishes, and that is just wrong, IMO. Of course you can find examples of the Dems refusing too, but it's not a creed they swore to uphold, it's just their normal stupidity.
I do understand how jobs are created, and I know that tax cuts haven't worked for the purpose. Incentives help, if the companies use them as intended, but what works best is demand, and demand is created by people with income to spend.
Yes, I'm familiar with 'teach a man to fish' and it makes me wonder why the government isn't investing in everyone's future by making education more effective and affordable. Where are the trade schools & apprentice programs that work for those not 'college material'?
Dave: please explain how a strong dollar creates jobs [in the US] cause you lost me altogether on that one....

 

[davekc]

It is really pretty simple. The value of what is consumed here in the US is based on that dollar. The more value it has, the more purchasing power it has for the rich and the poor.
Now for job creation.
If the dollar is strong and everyones net worth ( both rich and poor) is greater, they can purchase more things. Whatever they are. When people spend, quess what? Businesses will hire more people because of a stronger demand. That goes from stuff at Wally world all the way to the auto industry. That dollar controls everything.
With a weak currency (from borrowing and printing) that hurts every business, peoples finances (both rich and poor) take a hit. Whether you like them or not, those rich folks and foreign investors will move money to other places (foreign countries) where they get the greatest return.
That again, costs jobs and reduces wages.
Same with businesses, have the highest corporate tax rate, and those businesses are going somewhere else. At the end of the day, businesses need a profit to retain employees. Without it, you get what we have now.
Government hiring teachers for example temporarily, does nothing. Have to have a tax base to support it. Right now, we don't have that. Look at that 700B stimulus. Temporary money. We threw billions at teachers and public workers only to lay them off after a year of service. Why? Stimulus money got burnt up.
Always have to look at the whole picture, not what the politicians tell us.

 

[davekc]

On a side note, this is where Ron Paul was on his game. Remember he wanted to cut a trillion dollars of the debt in his first year. That is because he realized that the 16T debt does more harm to everyone (rich and the poor) than the actually cuts out of the budget would.

 

[cheri1122]

It is really pretty simple. The value of what is consumed here in the US is based on that dollar. The more value it has, the more purchasing power it has for the rich and the poor.
Now for job creation.
If the dollar is strong and everyones net worth ( both rich and poor) is greater, they can purchase more things. Whatever they are. When people spend, quess what? Businesses will hire more people because of a stronger demand. That goes from stuff at Wally world all the way to the auto industry. That dollar controls everything.

People who don't have enough dollars can't spend on anything beyond the necessities, no matter how 'strong' the dollar is.

With a weak currency (from borrowing and printing) that hurts every business, peoples finances (both rich and poor) take a hit. Whether you like them or not, those rich folks and foreign investors will move money to other places (foreign countries) where they get the greatest return.
That again, costs jobs and reduces wages.
Same with businesses, have the highest corporate tax rate, and those businesses are going somewhere else. At the end of the day, businesses need a profit to retain employees. Without it, you get what we have now.

The so called Bush tax cuts produced a whole lot of [more] profit for a lot of companies, but it didn't produce more jobs, did it? According to most reports, companies are simply stockpiling the money, citing 'uncertainty' for the lack of hiring.
Banks introduced ATM's to increase their profits, did that produce more jobs?

Of course business is supposed to make a profit, [mine too!] but the issue is that the past couple decades have seen that profit rise exponentially, while the benefits remained entirely at the top, like cream. Now, even shareholders are demanding ever greater profits [so who's entitled now, huh?] to the point that business is responding more to those demands than anything else, and it isn't good for the rest of the country, because it's how we got where we are now.
If they can't be profitable [enough] without keeping their employees in line for food stamps, there's a problem, I think. and the biggest proof is the staggering disparity between CEO & worker's pay: the CEO used to be content to make about 50 times as much as his workers - now it's something like 900 times as much. Doesn't that indicate a warped sense of reality to you? Cause it does to me, and to most people who work for a living.
A tax rate of zero wouldn't be enough for them, they'd demand incentives.
Wait - I meant MORE incentives, cause they've been getting them for years already.

 

[davekc]

There is no question there is a disparity with regards to CEO pay and a average worker. Bad news is, there isn't enough high dollar CEO's to make a difference with regards to the poor and the national debt.
Companies are sitting on a pile of cash. They are afraid to move any of it because there are too many items that are uncertain. Everything from healthcare to taxes. Because of that, you have a constricted market where no one will spend anything.
One can make it as personal as they want, but regardless of who the party is, you have to address our monetary problems.
Income redistribution isn't going to get you there. Look over the pond at Europe. They tried it and look what happened. Had they had a strong currency, they wouldn't have the problems they have now. And.....guess who is taking the biggest hit? It is the poor. They rich just move their money somewhere else.

 

[cheri1122]

There is no question there is a disparity with regards to CEO pay and a average worker. Bad news is, there isn't enough high dollar CEO's to make a difference with regards to the poor and the national debt.

Oh, well then, I guess it's ok.

Companies are sitting on a pile of cash. They are afraid to move any of it because there are too many items that are uncertain. Everything from healthcare to taxes. Because of that, you have a constricted market where no one will spend anything.

We have a market where those who can spend won't, and I'm not buying the 'uncertainty' line. Businesses have proven they have no problem letting workers go, so that's no excuse. There will NEVER be 'certainty' in the world, for anyone.
One can make it as personal as they want, but regardless of who the party is, you have to address our monetary problems.

We do, yes. The question is how [and when], and Romney's plan to cut taxes to stimulate hiring has been tried, and it failed. Hard as it is to make sense, adding debt [temporarily] to offer incentives to create jobs is more likely to increase demand, which increases hiring, which increases tax revenues, which is when the debt gets tackled. [If legislators actually do it, which is, I understand, debatable.]

Income redistribution isn't going to get you there. Look over the pond at Europe. They tried it and look what happened. Had they had a strong currency, they wouldn't have the problems they have now.

This isn't Europe - that's like saying the President needs business experience: the government isn't a business, and shouldn't be run like one. The US is not the same as Greece, or Spain, or the UK, and it's a mistake to assume what works there will work here, or vice versa.

And.....guess who is taking the biggest hit? It is the poor. They rich just move their money somewhere else.

But where will they take their money when they've extracted the profit from everywhere?
O - is THAT what the private Space X company is really for?

 

[runrunner]

Me Mom told me a very long time ago never argue over politics or religion very wise woman. Just saying.

 

[xiggi]

Wow - you guys sure know how to pile on, lol. Let me see if I can answer some of your points:

The Tea Party made refusal to compromise or negotiate a part of their 'platform', and the freshmen legislators elected recently have stuck to it, no matter what their own beliefs or constituents wishes, and that is just wrong, IMO. Of course you can find examples of the Dems refusing too, but it's not a creed they swore to uphold, it's just their normal stupidity

I do understand how jobs are created, and I know that tax cuts haven't worked for the purpose. Incentives help, if the companies use them as intended, but what works best is demand, and demand is created by people with income to spend.
Yes, I'm familiar with 'teach a man to fish' and it makes me wonder why the government isn't investing in everyone's future by making education more effective and affordable. Where are the trade schools & apprentice programs that work for those not 'college material'?
Dave: please explain how a strong dollar creates jobs [in the US] cause you lost me altogether on that one....

Again you have your facts wrong. The tea party is not like the dems or repubs that have one main group. The tea party is hundreds of groups they do not have a national platform so what you state as fact is not even possible.

Do you not know what the unemployment rate was during the first 7 plus years of the bush terms? Your making an incorrect deduction based on a few months meltdown in the job force that was not created by lower taxes. They created jobs for Reagan bush and if memory serves me Clinton and john f Kennedy but i could be wrong on that last one.

I agree more kids should go to vocational training but not sure if the government should be involved in much any education at least on a national leven. Nothing the government is involved in is more affordable.

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[mrgoodtude]

I will take a more laymen approach, In that I can't get past some Gaffe's from the current admin..
"We have to approve the bill to find out what's in it".- Pelosi
“It’s very clear that private-sector jobs have been doing just fine. It’s the public-sector jobs where we’ve lost huge numbers, and that’s what this legislation is all about.” – Harry Reid
Anything Biden Say's.
Really these aren't gaffe's at all, but a mindset of the idiot's that want another 4 years in office.
No thank you...
I am not voting for the best candidate, I am voting against the worst.. Sad testament for the country though is that Astronauts like Reid and Pelosi keep getting voted back into office...
Term limits for inside traitors are needed.
Oh **** I am in the soapbox! Gotta go.....

 

[chefdennis]

I stopped at the Gun Club yesterday for the 1st time in a while..I spoke with the guy that buys the ammo for the club. In his words he has purchased more ammo for the Club, groups of members and individual members then at anytime in the last 5 yrs...I ordered mine while I was there...

 

[bobwg]

Keeping my powder dry, stocking supplies, I now have a BOB(bug out bag)/72hour emergency bag in my Sprinter

 

[OntarioVanMan]

if you guys ever need to "hunker" there is a safe haven in Bison SD....room to spare and a friend to REAL Americans...

 

[jujubeans]

I think we should start a grass roots movement promoting davekc for president...wow does he ever understand!

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Wow...state of the country MUST be bad....My wife in the soapbox.....WTG...

 

[jujubeans]

Wow...state of the country MUST be bad....My wife in the soapbox.....WTG...

It is bad and it's time for a fix..you know I don't debate, but by God I can applaud good reason!

 

[bobwg]

www.armedamericanradio.org

 

[aristotle]

Well, Romney is an exceptional businessman. It couldn't hurt to bring an understanding of capitalism back to the Oval Office. Given the awful national debt, austerity budgets will be coming. We may have no choice but to live with austerity budgets for decades. The sacred cows of Social Security, Medicare, food stamps, federally funded unemployment payments which run 99 weeks, federal pensions, bloated military spending... all these sacred cows must face the butcher's knife.

On a side note, Obama gets away with extra-constitutional behavior for reasons which cannot be covered in polite conversation.