Paterno should be canned.

[chefdennis]

I totally agree TH...the ball was dropped back in 1998 when a DEAL was made between the DA, The CAMPUS Police Supervisors and sandusky....now there is talk of sandusky pimping these kids out to the big funders of his "kids organization" in exchange for those funds.....was Joe suppose to be aware of that also!?!?

Yes the whole this is over the top and disgusting and was mishandled by a whole lot of people with more power and influence the Joe, as you said, he is the scapgoat and the Board is just "CTAzs" on the advise of their lawyers.....

 

[witness23]

Yes the whole this is over the top and disgusting and was mishandled by a whole lot of people with more power and influence the Joe,

That right there shows how much you know about Happy Valley. Nobody, no one, was more powerful or had more influence than Joe Paterno in Happy Valley.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

That right there shows how much you know about Happy Valley. Nobody, no one, was more powerful or had more influence than Joe Paterno in Happy Valley.

Funny... I think the people who fired him had more power and influence than he did.

 

[witness23]

Funny... I think the people who fired him had more power and influence than he did.

Alrighty then..........

 

[Pilgrim]

Funny... I think the people who fired him had more power and influence than he did.

These university communities and the campuses are sometimes a bit different than small towns. There are fiefdoms that develop and the people that run the fiefdoms are very territorial. Paterno had great influence inside the athletic dept, but perhaps not so much in the university administration.
Remember also that Sandusky raised Millions for his charity organization - he could have easily used some of that money to pay off people in high places. For a while he apparently had a considerable amount of influence on campus and in the community in his own right.
We see that he was investigated by the campus cops, (which usually have jurisdiction on campus over the local police or sheriff unless it's a murder case) and the local prosecutor in '98. It's easy to imagine the scenario Paterno faced in 2002 when he found out Sandusky was diddling in the showers again with little boys. He could have gone to the higher-ups and said "he's at it again guys - we've been down this road before, now the ball's in your court". At that point he's fulfilled his legal obligations, knowing from past experience that the campus cops and the county DA aren't going to do anything. Unfortunately, when the case gets out of the hands of the locals and into the grand jury the stuff hits the fan nationwide - everybody from the Univ. President down to the water boys get dragged into it. The trustees, trying to save their own skins fire the president, athletic director and several others. Paterno offers to resign, but instead of accepting this exit strategy they make a public spectacle of his firing. They know that JoePa is a famous head coach, so that makes it easy for everyone looking to assign blame to point the finger at him since they don't know the names of anyone else there. The trustees get Paterno's pound of flesh and figure that will take the heat off of them, considering they also have probably been aware of a pedophile being harbored on their campus.
Don't get me wrong - JoePa's skirts are not clean in this deal, and it looks like all those Penn St administrators, the campus police dept and several others will get what's coming to them. I'll bet the hotel rooms in Happy Valley are filled with sleazy lawyers too, looking for victims to file suit against anyone from Penn St that has two nickles in their pocket. It will be a long time before this mess goes away, and the shameful thing is that a lot of good innocent people will be unfairly stained from being in the wrong place at the wrong time - especially the current Penn St players.

 

[Pilgrim]

I'll bet the PSU board of trustees broke out in a collective sweat after reading about this verdict:

Fla. jury awards $100M in priest abuse case - Yahoo! News

 

[cheri1122]

Your attempts to ridicule and trivialize major college sports, their administrators and their participants only tend to diminish the effect of the other points you make that are valid.

Major college sports & their administrators' attempts to magnify their importance only tend to diminish the effect of sanity - it's a freakin GAME!

Tee ball is a child's game; football at the level played at Penn State is a profession, and those who are able to participate at that level as starters are individuals with rare God-given [and too often, drug assisted]physical talents [throwing & catching a ball, running, and knocking people down - wow! That's REAL talent. ]
that must be combined with the mental capacity to make the most of their gifts.
If they're not smart enough to graduate [jr high, high school, college] they'll get special tutors, and not a few teachers have been known to 'help' an athlete pass a subject or grade undeservedly, with or without pressure from the athletic dept,.
But I overstate the obvious - you know all that already.

Now about the RAPE AND ABUSE: for your reading pleasure, here's a link to the grand jury report courtesy of the Washington Post: Jerry Sandusky arrested: Grand jury report - The Washington Post

Notice in the report that about 1/2 of the victims went along with Sandusky's homosexual encounters multiple times over a number of years. These kids were old enough to know what's right and wrong,

Oh no - you did not just say that!!!

and they participated in Sandusky's perversions anyway;

Participation isn't how RAPE OF A CHILD is described - by anyone other than a pedophile.

that doesn't excuse any of that nonsense or make it right. Some of the younger victims made it a point to avoid Sandusky after the first inappropriate contact. My point is that some of these older victims were willing participants in order to continue getting the goodies and perks, and were old enough to know better.

Your point is that the children [most in the 10-12 age range] are to blame? Is that what you're saying here? You seriously suggest that being 'old enough to know better' makes it their own fault, even just a tiny bit?
Please tell me that's not what you meant.

Notice also that with victim 6, Sandusky was reported to the Penn St. campus police who interviewed him, conducted an investigation and even referred the case to the county D.A.
Thus, both the police and the Centre County D.A.'s office knew about Sandusky's assaults on young boys in 1998 - four years before the infamous shower incident involving Mike McQueary. The county's investigation was dropped at the insistence of the supervisor of campus police. Sandusky had also been caught in the showers with a young kid in 2000 by one of the janitorial staff, who reported it to a supervisor. However, this incident wasn't reported to higher-ups by the janitorial supervisor due to fear of retribution.

There are a lot of reasons why LEOs cannot arrest and prosecutors decline to charge perps they know in their hearts are guilty - lack of arrest doesn't make one innocent of wrongdoing.

Everyone can read this report and decide for themselves where the ultimate blame lies. But IMHO Paterno's culpability looks a little less significant, given the history preceding the shower incident in 2002. It's probably fair to say that everyone on campus and in the county knew this Sandusky guy was a pervert and a child molester and the powers that be allowed him to hang around the university anyway. Paterno, the Athletic Director, the Univ. President, Campus Police and County D.A. - any or all of these people could have insisted he be kicked off campus and prosecuted years ago. Maybe after all this mess is sorted out in court we'll find out why this scumbag was tolerated all those years.

Because athletics [aka games played by grown men] has taken on almost mythical importance in this crazy world, and Sandusky was important to those who were part of those games.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Cheri... you should stop commenting on what you don't have a clue about... what it takes to be a college football player. Just some friendly advice.

 

[Ragman]

That right there shows how much you know about Happy Valley. Nobody, no one, was more powerful or had more influence than Joe Paterno in Happy Valley.

Sorry, my face palming friend, I have to give you a back at ya.

Joe Pa was a football coach, nothing more.

 

[cheri1122]

Cheri... you should stop commenting on what you don't have a clue about... what it takes to be a college football player. Just some friendly advice.

So what'd I leave out?
Throwing & catching- check.
Running- check.
Knocking people down- check.
O - hazing! I forgot that part.

It also takes an ability to become convinced of one's importance and value in the Twilight Zone kind of world where being good at playing football [or a few other games] is reason to make a brazillion bucks, be treated like a VIP, have little mistakes involving drugs & alcohol forgiven, and even graduate from college without having learned much [if anything] about one's chosen major.
Yes, I know, there are exceptions - but here's the thing: what if these guys put the effort [many long hours of actual work] into doing something that contributes more than entertainment to their fellow man?
Not that there's anything wrong with entertainment, I'm just sayin: the 'importance' of the players is over the top exaggerated, when you look at what they actually do: run, knock people down, etc.

 

[greg334]

Your attempts to ridicule and trivialize major college sports, their administrators and their participants only tend to diminish the effect of the other points you make that are valid. Tee ball is a child's game; football at the level played at Penn State is a profession, and those who are able to participate at that level as starters are individuals with rare God-given physical talents that must be combined with the mental capacity to make the most of their gifts. But I overstate the obvious - you know all that already.

Really?

ridicule?

yep when it overshadows the purpose of the college or university's obligation to the public that they serve by educating the public. U of M is one that has drifted away from their purpose, and so have many others schools. If you want to talk about real world experience with a school like Michigan State or Purdue where a lot of crap goes on to ensure that the players play above all else, I would like to hear if it differs from what I know first hand.

Trivializing?

Well that comes from the fact that many "fans" take it too seriously and act as children when something like this happens ... yep ... then the sport, the programs and the foundation to justifying the problems these things cause are all insignificant to the bigger picture.

Professional?

Not by any stretch of the imagination. It is a child's game, play by junior high school and high school kids - it is made into a profession beyond the collegiate circuit and is still nothing more than a child's game equal to tee ball.

Someone said not too long ago that athletes are a dime a dozen and those who excel in sports can always be replaced with someone else. Their skill set isn't and will never be the best so their "rare God-given physical talents" are just the same as the people who work in the real world without the benefit of being coddled and don't endure the riggers of years of hard work but a brief time playing a child's game of chasing a ball around.

Now about the RAPE AND ABUSE: for your reading pleasure, here's a link to the grand jury report courtesy of the Washington Post: Jerry Sandusky arrested: Grand jury report - The Washington Post

Got to tell you I don't give a crap, the reason is simple, the arrogance of the coach and the defenders are the issue for me. He lacks all morals and integrity because he could have done what was needed to properly bring this to the attention of the proper authorities and then it would be a different case but when people act as if he was Jesus and could do no wrong based all on his insignificant work as a coach, it looks like they are also defending the raping of kids because of the continuing actions of one guy who they knew about.

Notice in the report that about 1/2 of the victims went along with Sandusky's homosexual encounters multiple times over a number of years. These kids were old enough to know what's right and wrong, and they participated in Sandusky's perversions anyway; that doesn't excuse any of that nonsense or make it right. Some of the younger victims made it a point to avoid Sandusky after the first inappropriate contact. My point is that some of these older victims were willing participants in order to continue getting the goodies and perks, and were old enough to know better.

He dude, read this carefully - IT DOESN'T MATTER because he RAPED a BOY and others knew about it, including Paterno. It is an obligation, moral and legal to report it and make sure it is followed up on by the guy who seems to be described as one with the power at Penn State. He is the one who is the mover and shaker on campus, who is feared and revered by all and if he can't bring himself to make sure something as rape and abuse is stopped, then he is no better than the guy who raped the kids.

Let me ask you something, did you see what happened to the toddler in China that was run over by the van and other cars and watched the video as people walked over her and ignored her?

If you did than are those people not liable for their inactions too?

If you think so, then Paterno is in the same place, he knew about something and did as little as possible.

 

[cheri1122]

Greg, I thought of the Chinese toddler, too - it's like you keep [silently] screaming at the people who're ignoring it "How can you do NOTHING when a child so clearly needs help?!!!"
But I don't think Paterno is or was arrogant - he seems genuinely remorseful over his failure to do more than he did, and he has done a lot of really good things for his community for many years, too. He only [hopefully] made that one mistake, but it was a killer, and it's just sad that all the good he's done is overshadowed by it.
I wonder if it makes folks more understanding about how one wrong choice can ruin a life....
Nah, probably not.

 

[Pilgrim]

Professional?
Not by any stretch of the imagination. It is a child's game, play by junior high school and high school kids - it is made into a profession beyond the collegiate circuit and is still nothing more than a child's game equal to tee ball.

I'll have to say that one of the most absurd responses I've ever seen on this or any other forum. These athletes come to universities like Penn State to hone their skills, and some will go to the NFL to earn millions of dollars in their chosen profession as players and/or coaches - the same as gifted musicians, artists, accountants or lawyers.

Someone said not too long ago that athletes are a dime a dozen and those who excel in sports can always be replaced with someone else. Their skill set isn't and will never be the best so their "rare God-given physical talents" are just the same as the people who work in the real world without the benefit of being coddled and don't endure the riggers of years of hard work but a brief time playing a child's game of chasing a ball around.

"Don't endure the rigors of hard work??? Have you ever even SEEN a football/baseball/basketball practice at the college level? Evidently not. To say nothing of the daily schedule these kids have to strictly adhere to. It's obvious you're completely out of your area of expertise.

Got to tell you I don't give a crap, the reason is simple, the arrogance of the coach and the defenders are the issue for me. He lacks all morals and integrity because he could have done what was needed to properly bring this to the attention of the proper authorities and then it would be a different case but when people act as if he was Jesus and could do no wrong based all on his insignificant work as a coach, it looks like they are also defending the raping of kids because of the continuing actions of one guy who they knew about.

You don't give a crap about the findings of the grand jury report? Fine - base your opinions on the reports you see in Yahoo news or OMG! The grand jury report made it clear there were failures at all levels of PSU administration and the Centre County prosecutor's office. BTW, in no instance was anyone defending Sandusky's actions as acceptable - they were engaged in a lame attempt at damage control, and doing a lousy job of it. Others have taken the same route - once again I refer to the Catholic Church.

He dude, read this carefully - IT DOESN'T MATTER because he RAPED a BOY and others knew about it, including Paterno. It is an obligation, moral and legal to report it and make sure it is followed up on by the guy who seems to be described as one with the power at Penn State. He is the one who is the mover and shaker on campus, who is feared and revered by all and if he can't bring himself to make sure something as rape and abuse is stopped, then he is no better than the guy who raped the kids.

Hey dude, pay attention to what the grand jury report said was actually going on, even if you don't give a crap about it. Just because Paterno is the most well known individual at Penn State does not mean he's at the top of the power structure. It's pretty obvious that there are others that have more power than he does including the A.D., the President and the Trustees. They, along with the campus police and the county prosecutor knew what was going on and did nothing. Paterno was not the Lone Ranger in this deal and was by no means the all powerful demagogue you seem to think he was. There must be other factors at play in this mess that haven't been brought out yet - and I'll bet it involves high level PSU administrators and Centre County officials that were paid off by Sandusky.

Just to be clear - the victimized young boys haven't been mentioned in the above comments because it's a given that what happened to them is revolting criminal behaviour to say the least. Sandusky singled out the ones he thought were vulnerable and took advantage of them, but others rejected him outright. Who wants to bet there will be other targets of his that come forward before this deal is over? At any rate, we can only hope that somehow we'll find out why a known homosexual pedophile was allowed to exist on this campus for so long a time. That's the least the state of PA can do for the victims of this pervert and his enablers.

 

[Turtle]

I think that some here in the soapbox are re-evaluating their opinions of this situation greg and minimizing you in the process.

Possibly, but I'm not one of them. Of all the people involved in this, from the president to the campus police to the DA's office to the grad assistant, to Sandusky (y'all remember Sandusky don't you? - he's the one who molested those children) Paterno is far and away the least culpable of all, and the only one to do precisely what the law said he should have done. The mob mentality has reached a point where if Sandusky were to walk on a technicality, that's OK, because Paterno's head is on a pike, and that's the important thing here. <snort>

As for minimizing Greg, that's pretty easy to do when he (and Cheri, apparently) doesn't understand the difference between a kid's game and high level athletic competition, much less the psychological importance of spectator sports in general, the fact that (most) people in societies have an innate need to be part of something larger than themselves, where people of disparate socio-economic backgrounds who would otherwise never commiserate, are unified in a strong, cohesive group with a common goal and purpose. Sports are not at all unlike religion in that respect.

There are mating ritual parallels, of course, where the strongest compete in mock battles while others watch, as is currently the case with many in the animal kingdom, and as once was the case with humans where athletic ability could mean the very survival of the group. It's certainly no secret that it’s the "jocks" that get the girls.

Sports can offer us some sanity and order in an increasingly confused and insane world. In sports, you have a clear-cut winner, and a clear-cut loser. As a fan, we belong, we are part of something bigger than ourselves. We are able to vicariously experience a sense of wholeness, worth and autonomy often lost for the majority of us in a predictable and routine-based work existence.

Rooting for a sports team can even modify human physiology. In the classic "spectator study" (BERNHARDT, P. C., J. M. DABBS, JR., J. A. FIELDEN, AND C. D. LUTTER. PHYSIOL BEHAV 65(1) 59–62, 1998) several studies were done, with the three principal studies being that of soccer, basketball and football fans. "Basking in reflected glory, in which individuals increase their self-esteem by identifying with successful others, is usually regarded as a cognitive process that can affect behavior. It may also involve physiological processes, including changes in the production of endocrine hormones." The present research involved studies of changes in testosterone levels among male fans, and estrogen levels among female fans, watching their favorite sports teams win or lose.

In the first study, participants were eight male and 6 female fans attending a basketball game between traditional college rivals (ACC). In the second study, participants were 21 male and 23 female fans watching a televised World Cup soccer match between traditional international rivals. The third study participants were 14 male and 14 female fans watching a college football game between rivals (Big 10). Participants provided saliva samples for testosterone and estrogen assay before and after the contest. In both studies, mean testosterone and estrogen levels increased in the fans of winning teams and decreased in the fans of losing teams.

These findings suggest that watching one’s heroes win or lose has physiological consequences that extend beyond changes in mood and self-esteem. There are many studies and volumes of data on the subject of the psychology and physiology of participant and spectator sports. These are far more than just "kid's games played by adults". These "games" play a vital role in both the individual and in society at large.

 

[greg334]

Yep it seems you two proved what I am about to say, too many people can not look beyond the game to see what was wrong and defend the use of the excuse that the game is an important factor in society so Paterno is important enough to overlook his moral and legal obligations.

As for being culpable, he is a lot by his position, his longevity of his tenure and his stature in the college football world and on that campus or was until they brought him down to reality. I don't think many would understand his arrogance or the fact that with one phone call he could have put a stop to all of it because they can't seem to get past the game, Even his offer to resign alone speaks volumes of it and shows his contempt for the victims.

I feel that if it was your kid or your relative, you may want blood of those who knew about it, which is justified as far as I'm concern. I hope to see Paternal get the crap sued out of him just to send the message that people in power are also liable for their actions or inactions.

As far as working hard, please Pligrim, those who work in mines, in oil fields, and other jobs for 20 or 30 years work hard, football players don't in comparison. Yes I have been on the field during practice and during games, and yes I have seen what goes on behind the scenes, so I know what you are talking about but it is not as bad as you make it out to be or want to impress people that I'm wrong. There is a difference between someone who plays a game or practice for it every few days and those who work five and six days a week at a physically demanding job - the former only does it ~45 to 60 days out of the year while the other does it 260 days out of the year.

 

[jaminjim]

These "games" play a vital role in both the individual and in society at large.

I'll buy you a coffee if you can convince my wife of that.

 

[skyraider]

This will be one of those trials of the century with many victims families coming forward, hold on to ur jock strap .lol

 

[witness23]

Funny... I think the people who fired him had more power and influence than he did.

Not in Joe's mind they didn't. Paterno told reporters "I have decided" to retire at the end of the season and that he was acting in "the best interests" of the university by doing so. He added, "At this moment, the Board of Trustees should not spend a single minute discussing my status. They have far more important matters to address. I want to make this as easy for them as I possibly can." A statement made without discussing it with the trustees.

Remember also, the guy is 84 years old, who is coaching a top level collegiate football program at 84? Joe Paterno was Penn State football, Penn State football was Happy Valley. Once you wrap your head around that fact, then maybe you can see why so many are upset about this.

 

[Pilgrim]

.....Paterno is important enough to overlook his moral and legal obligations.

No one is saying that. It's very clear in most all the previous posts - mine and others - that there were failures at multiple levels in the University administration and Centre County's prosecutor's dept. Paterno is one of several that allowed this creep to remain on campus

I don't think many would understand his arrogance or the fact that with one phone call he could have put a stop to all of it because they can't seem to get past the game, Even his offer to resign alone speaks volumes of it and shows his contempt for the victims.

Considering all the information that's been published so far, nothing would indicate Paterno had to power to put a stop to all of it with one phone call. His offer to resign "shows his contempt for the victims"??? Sorry, that doesn't compute.

I feel that if it was your kid or your relative, you may want blood of those who knew about it, which is justified as far as I'm concern.

I agree 100%, but I'd want the blood of the one who DID IT - and I'm surprised that some of the fathers of these kids haven't gone after Jerry Sandusky - remember him - the homosexual pedophile that assaulted and raped these kids? Which brings to mine the question - why isn't all this vitriol being directed toward him instead of Paterno?

I hope to see Paternal get the crap sued out of him just to send the message that people in power are also liable for their actions or inactions.

There's not a doubt in my mind that your wish will be granted for that one - the university, JoePa and all the other administrators will probably be fighting civil actions for years to come.

There is a difference between someone who plays a game or practice for it every few days and those who work five and six days a week at a physically demanding job - the former only does it ~45 to 60 days out of the year while the other does it 260 days out of the year.

Now comparing the work of oil rigs and coal mines to that of major college sports is a bit different from what you said previously. Yes indeed, there are jobs that require hard physical labor every day of the week that are more demanding than the routine of college athletes. But to imply that these student athletes are pampered, lazy brats is way off base. Most of them maintain a full class load throughout the year, except during football season when they take the minimum number of hours for full time status. Keep in mind they do have off-season workouts that are declared "voluntary" to stay within NCAA rules, but they have to participate to keep themselves in shape. The full practice schedule for football is in effect from August to Jan - certainly longer than 60 days. Like everything else in life, the ones who want to be successful play by the rules and work their a**** off, and the lazy ones get weeded out.

 

[witness23]

Sorry, my face palming friend, I have to give you a back at ya. .

No problem.

Joe Pa was a football coach, nothing more.

With all due respect, Joe Paterno was more than a football coach.

You see this guy is not only a legendary coach he was a legendary man as well. As a coach he has the most wins in NCAA history and as a man he personified leadership, morality and character. He became that guy not just by being a coach, he was the "ideal role model", he built that legend status not just on the football field but off the field as well. He was an exemplary leader and above all a man whom others strived to be like. He placed academics, character and athletics(which he called the "The Grand Experiment") on the same shelf and demanded excellence from his kids on and off the field. When you are just a football coach, they do not name libraries after you, they do not erect a bronze statue of you on campus, with these words inscribed on a wall behind the statue:

"They ask me what I'd like written about me when I'm gone. I hope they write I made Penn State a better place, not just that I was a good football coach."

Like it or not, in Happy Valley this man was set on a pedestal like no other coach or human being in college history.

One of Joe Pa’s philosophies was that, “If you take care of the little things, the big things will take care of themselves.”

Say it aint so Joe.