Panetta: Israel May Strike Iran This Spring

[RLENT]

Well Ok, I guess. BUT what has been the outcome of our involvement? It seems that we walked away without a gain being made. I think, and it seems to be the thought of a lot of others who know the region, is our involvement was not about giving Iraq freedom but giving Iran a hard poke but it seems to have not worked out that way.

Remarkably similar to how the whole thing with "The War On Terror" has worked out .... the road to hell being paved with good intentions, unintended consequences, and all ....

 

[Pilgrim]

Really? That goes without saying but you know when we talk about Iran, we can't forget that we had a part to play in the rise and fall of the Shah, without any contention we should approach our involvement as a lesson but not to apologize for it at this point. As for Khomeini and the credit you give him, I think that maybe you need to examine the entire terrorist issue and see who actually did more for promoting the violence, because it really wasn't Khomeini. I am thinking maybe Qutb or al-Hudayb.

All three were bad players but I'll still cast my vote for Khomeini. Anybody who sends out waves of children to clear mine fields for soldiers is something less than human.

AND I have to ask so?
If this is a real issue for the middle east, then the Arab league would be leading the solution, not us. They have more to lose than the west does because an unstable and middle east will put them in the cross hairs, especially the Sauds, then any one else.

Once again - it has to do with the PRICE OF OIL, and how it effects our economy.

Well I know that they are not the leading state sponsor or terrorism, China may be in the lead with Russia not far behind. BUT I digress .... The one thing that you and others seem to miss is that we can deal with Iran but failed to do so since Carter, including Reagan. So for you to speak of cowardice makes me wonder what can be done, genocide? A nuke option to just wipe the country clean?

Maybe some examples of Chinese sponsored terrorism and what makes them more prolific than Iran might be in order. But a nuke option? That's an exaggeration to say the least. Sanctions with bite like closing off their central bank and an interruption of their importation of refined gasoline would get their attention. Of course there's obviously been some black ops going on to work against their nuclear development. But their nuclear facilities have to be shut down one way or another - that's the bottom line.

 

[greg334]

All three were bad players but I'll still cast my vote for Khomeini. Anybody who sends out waves of children to clear mine fields for soldiers is something less than human.

Is this any less than other regimes or our own past where we killed women and children?

I'm going back to the idea that we still have blood on our hands and before we try to justify one thing or another, we have to understand our own past and how it negitivily impacted us and others.

Once again - it has to do with the PRICE OF OIL, and how it effects our economy.

So?

Let's see ... our oil prices are not derived by the spot market, but the futures market, and that is where we have the serious issue of unstability. If Iran starts something, like farting in Arabic instead of Farsi, then those who are playing the market will react and the price will go up. If OPEC member to our south decides to cut their production rate to hurt us, then the price goes up. THE solution is to not become less dependent on foreign oil but less dependent on oil - period.

Maybe some examples of Chinese sponsored terrorism and what makes them more prolific than Iran might be in order.

OH I don't know, maybe their hacking of our systems can be considered a terrorist act?

There are a lot of things they and the Russians have been doing, in contrast to the Chinese, the Iranians are just little kids on the block trying to impress the big kids.

But a nuke option? That's an exaggeration to say the least.

Not the way people are speaking.

I see it as a knee jerk reaction from people not smart enough to understand what is what and who is who. Much of the rhetoric from the idiot news people seem to be based on the hatred for the people for the failures of the past adminstrations to revenge the embassy thing. We have villinized the entire country for the nut jobs running it and because we are not a "religious" country, we fail to understand any of what the Middle East people see in their religion. I think it was even you who is claiming that their religion is still in stuck in time, but no one thinks that many of our little christian sects are still stuck in the 1100s by their attitude of hatred.

Again there is a problem with understanding people, the Persians may not give up so easily as did the Iraqies, maybe the understanding that they are like us, not like what we expect may be the problem - they may defend their country from external threats more so than we could understand.

Sanctions with bite like closing off their central bank and an interruption of their importation of refined gasoline would get their attention.

You are joking right?

OK here is the thing and maybe you need to read it a few times. The iranians do not depend on gasoline as we do, they have a large natrual gas supply and unlike us, they are using it in their vehicles. They lead in the CNG vehicles conversions in the world, so why are we thinking we are the smart ones?

Cutting off their central bank from who?

See another fallacy, that's what it is. They trade with the EU so yep it may hurt them a bit but their trading with China, Japan (they stopped a lot of their oil purchases but they still trade with them), Russia and a few other countries will sustain them, oh they are also trading heavely with their next door neignbor - the Iraqis. So explain to me how we are going to get China and Russia to stop trading with them when they have warned us not to mess with Iran?

Do you think that our great cursade into Iraq gave us some diplomatic capital where we can ask/tell them not to trade with Iran?

Maybe that is what's missing ... we are thinking we can handles Iran and their allies, but quite honestly we can't handle Iran let alone their allies because of our condition, we are a sick (meaning "in trouble") country by the debt load and the poor economy.

If we were to strike at Iran, China could strike at us without our knowing it until later - cyber attack on say our power grid. What then?

War with China?

We would not survive that. I see it turning into one big cluster****.

China can strike against England the same way, they can buffet any attacks to their system because unlike us and our allies, they are not overly dependent on technology.

Of course there's obviously been some black ops going on to work against their nuclear development. But their nuclear facilities have to be shut down one way or another - that's the bottom line.

Yeah sure, Iran is not Somolia.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

seems to be an assumption the Israelis will have an easy time with Iran? There is a chance Israel could get their butts whipped

 

[greg334]

seems to be an assumption the Israelis will have an easy time with Iran? There is a chance Israel could get their butts whipped

Yes but I think there is an assumption that we can step in and support another engagement with a country that might end up bleeding us both in people and money.

I feel that israel may be better off with a war with Iran than we would.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Yes but I think there is an assumption that we can step in and support another engagement with a country that might end up bleeding us both in people and money.

I feel that israel may be better off with a war with Iran than we would.

I think they won't be "gentle" like we would...They have more at stake then we do...like their very existence...

 

[Pilgrim]

Is this any less than other regimes or our own past where we killed women and children?

You gotta be kidding.

"During the eight year Iran-Iraq war, Tehran very quickly learned its army was no match for Iraq’s. When Iraqi minefields began claiming Iranian soldiers, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini concocted a scheme to reduce these losses. He encouraged Iranian children to volunteer for a special force known as the Basiji. Lightly armed but more often unarmed to avoid the loss of weapons, the Basiji were trained to form human waves to march through Iraqi minefields towards the enemy. This process—through the sheer loss of numbers of children—eventually cleared a minefield, providing Iran’s professional soldiers an unencumbered approach route to Iraqi defenses."
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=36496

If you can show me ONE instance of this kind of inhumanity from a US administration, I'm all eyes and ears - and forget the stuff about the civilian casualties resulting from bombing campaigns during world wars and stuff like that.

So?
Let's see ... our oil prices are not derived by the spot market, but the futures market, and that is where we have the serious issue of unstability. If Iran starts something, like farting in Arabic instead of Farsi, then those who are playing the market will react and the price will go up. If OPEC member to our south decides to cut their production rate to hurt us, then the price goes up. THE solution is to not become less dependent on foreign oil but less dependent on oil - period.

Yes, we need to become more energy independant but we know that's not going to happen any time soon. So - that leaves us with what happens to the price of oil if there's a dust-up with Iran: it goes UP and so does our gas and diesel prices.

OH I don't know, maybe their hacking of our systems can be considered a terrorist act?

How many people has that killed? That's like comparing the Anonymous hackers to Al Quaeda.

You are joking right?
OK here is the thing and maybe you need to read it a few times. The iranians do not depend on gasoline as we do, they have a large natrual gas supply and unlike us, they are using it in their vehicles. They lead in the CNG vehicles conversions in the world, so why are we thinking we are the smart ones?

Try reading these a few times and educate yourself on what the effects on the Iranian economy will be if the US and European Union decide to impose SERIOUS sanctions on Iran's Central Bank, and perhaps interrupt the imports of refined gasoline into Iran.

The Obama Administration, which once pledged to impose “crippling sanctions” on Iran’s hostile regime, now seeks to dilute economic sanctions that Congress is considering against Iran. The proposed sanctions, contained in an amendment to the Fiscal Year 2012 National Defense Authorization Act, would penalize foreign financial institutions that do business with the Central Bank of Iran (CBI), which is a major financier of Iran’s nuclear, ballistic missile, and terrorism efforts. By undermining congressional sanctions on Iran, the Obama Administration risks reducing the chances that Tehran can be persuaded to halt its nuclear weapons program and increasing the chances that Israel or the United States will be forced to take military action against Iran. "
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/12/reject-efforts-to-weaken-iran-sanctions

The most recent round of U.S. and EU sanctions are designed to exploit Iran’s dependency on gasoline imports. The U.S. Congress led the way by passing the Comprehensive Iran Accountability, Sanctions and Divestment Act[33] in June 2010, which authorized the Administration to impose sanctions on firms that sell gasoline to Iran. The EU followed suit in July by banning new investment in Iran’s energy sector, especially in refining oil into gasoline.[34] Although gasoline imports dropped to 60,000 bpd in June—a 50 percent drop compared to May—the overall effect of sanctions is yet to be determined.[35] There are signs that Iran has embarked on a crash course to eliminate its dependence on gasoline imports. If successful, it will make gasoline sanctions futile. Many experts question Iran’s claims that it has reached gasoline self-sufficiency or can do so in the near future. They doubt that Tehran can attract the capital and technology to eliminate its dependence. Recent government plans to eliminate subsidies on gasoline have been repeatedly delayed because the regime fears the potential for significant inflation to further inflame domestic discontent.
While Iran has many sources of resource wealth, the highly corrupt, inefficient, and technologically backward oil and gas sector does not support rapid economic growth. As a result, Iran suffers from widespread unemployment. The official unemployment rate is 14.6 percent, with the unemployment rate among young people between age 15 and 24 approaching 24 percent. However, the real unemployment rate is suspected to be much higher.[36]
The regime’s mismanagement of Iran’s economy and its proposed sharp reduction in energy subsidies could lead to immense popular pressure for government reform or even regime replacement. Moscow and Beijing, the theocracy’s principal allies, are unlikely to welcome such a development.
http://www.heritage.org/research/re...nergy-sector-a-target-vulnerable-to-sanctions

Yeah sure, Iran is not Somolia.

Tell that to the relatives of the Iranian nuclear scientist that got blown up about a week ago.

 

[Pilgrim]

seems to be an assumption the Israelis will have an easy time with Iran? There is a chance Israel could get their butts whipped

Not a chance - Israel has far more firepower and could handle the Iranian forces easily. The problem would be with their surrounding neighbors - Palestinians, Lebanon, Syria, and the rockets and attacks that would come from them.

 

[greg334]

You gotta be kidding.

Nope not really,

If you can show me ONE instance of this kind of inhumanity from a US administration, I'm all eyes and ears - and forget the stuff about the civilian casualties resulting from bombing campaigns during world wars and stuff like
that.

I'll give you a couple, Wounded Knee and Thanh Phong. I know there are a lot more, most of which took place in the last half of the 19th century while some of it took place in the first half of the 20th. Nevertheless, you asked if we did, and yes we did. I do think that Dresden should be on the list because that was a moral attack that isn't really justified in the military need or for that matter, any other reasonable need.

Yes, we need to become more energy independant but we know that's not going to happen any time soon. So - that leaves us with what happens to the price of oil if there's a dust-up with Iran: it goes UP and so does our gas and diesel prices.

Well see here's the thing that I don't get why don't we?

I mean ok we have a lot of natural gas, most of the homes in most metropolitan areas have it, so lets push that for cars, or are we waiting for the government to provide some tax incentive?

Maybe the best incentive is to rid ourselves of our laziness and think for once.

How many people has that killed? That's like comparing the Anonymous hackers to Al Quaeda.

It can, that's the point. The idea that they can disrupt our country and cause chaos is the point. Killing is only part of the terrorist's purpose, the other is to change the people's resolve, get enough hackers going and screw up the country, then it is just as bad if not worse than 9/11.

Try reading these a few times and educate yourself on what the effects on the Iranian economy will be if the US and European Union decide to impose SERIOUS sanctions on Iran's Central Bank, and perhaps interrupt the imports of refined gasoline into Iran.

I read them and I also have a source that says otherwise, I'm going with my source on this one. There was a comment made the other day about the sanctions and it was in effect that until we get Russia and China on board, nothing is going to happen.

Another thing that is not talked about anywhere is what India is exporting to Iran, a lot of CNG stuff for the last 10 years. Now if this was a crash course of alternative fuel conversions, why is it that a lot of the info I got from one of the US auto companies is on the marketability of CNG vehicles in Iran which is the source of the Indian info?

Tell that to the relatives of the Iranian nuclear scientist that got blown up about a week ago.

Are you saying that the US is targeting citizens of another country?

Isn't that the same thing as terrorism?

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Nope not really,




I'll give you a couple, Wounded Knee and Thanh Phong. I know there are a lot more, most of which took place in the last half of the 19th century while some of it took place in the first half of the 20th. Nevertheless, you asked if we did, and yes we did. I do think that Dresden should be on the list because that was a moral attack that isn't really justified in the military need or for that matter, any other reasonable need.



Well see here's the thing that I don't get why don't we?

I mean ok we have a lot of natural gas, most of the homes in most metropolitan areas have it, so lets push that for cars, or are we waiting for the government to provide some tax incentive?

Maybe the best incentive is to rid ourselves of our laziness and think for once.



It can, that's the point. The idea that they can disrupt our country and cause chaos is the point. Killing is only part of the terrorist's purpose, the other is to change the people's resolve, get enough hackers going and screw up the country, then it is just as bad if not worse than 9/11.



I read them and I also have a source that says otherwise, I'm going with my source on this one. There was a comment made the other day about the sanctions and it was in effect that until we get Russia and China on board, nothing is going to happen.

Another thing that is not talked about anywhere is what India is exporting to Iran, a lot of CNG stuff for the last 10 years. Now if this was a crash course of alternative fuel conversions, why is it that a lot of the info I got from one of the US auto companies is on the marketability of CNG vehicles in Iran which is the source of the Indian info?



Are you saying that the US is targeting citizens of another country?

Isn't that the same thing as terrorism?

Oh no...that is called protecting US interests.....when any other country protect their interests it is call terrorism....

 

[RLENT]

Oh no ... that is called protecting US interests ..... when any other country protect their interests it is call terrorism ....

Heheheh .... ya just can't make it up can ya ?

And it wouldn't be 1/10th as funny if such talk wasn't accompanied by much self-righteous indignation and moralizing about how ..... "we good" .... "they bad" ....

Ya have to have at least a little bit of admiration for someone like Lt. Gen. William Odom (Ret.), the former NSA head, who comes out and calls a spade a spade .... and owns up to the fact that we are (or have been) one of the largest supporters of terrorism around the world ....

 

[Turtle]

The Golden Rule is sooooooo haarrrddd.

Incidentally, you know that list of the countries which sponsor terrorism? The US isn't on that list.

Do you know who wrote and maintains the list?

The US Department of State.

It's funny because it's truuuuuu.

Tip your waitresses, I'm here all week.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Spin doctor is in the house.....LOL

 

[RLENT]

Spin doctors is in the house.....LOL

Fixed it for ya

 

[Pilgrim]

The Golden Rule is sooooooo haarrrddd.

Incidentally, you know that list of the countries which sponsor terrorism? The US isn't on that list.

Do you know who wrote and maintains the list?

The US Department of State.

It's funny because it's truuuuuu.

Tip your waitresses, I'm here all week.

There is no "Golden Rule" in foreign relations - never has been, never will be (unless it's "trust but verify").
The U.S. State Dept. maintains a list of terrorist organizations, along with several other countries like Australia, Britain, Russia, Canada, India, plus the European Union and the United Nations; all of these have terrorist lists, and there are probably others such as Spain that have them also. Maybe I missed it, but the U.S. doesn't seem to be on any of their lists - how funny is that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/sc8102.doc.htm

 

[aristotle]

Pilgrim, you do realize you're trying to reason with the Ron Paul School of Idealism, right? This belief system isn't based in reality. Ron Paul must certainly have been heavily influenced by watching Mister Rogers' Neighborhood.

Reality is having thousands of nuclear warheads targeted for mutually assured destruction of our nation as well as our adversaries. Reality is the Middle East tinderbox set to ignite on a moment's notice. Reality is a few million Israelis surrounded by a hundred million Muslims who wish for the state of Israel to disappear.

The United States has repeatedly pledged to defend the tiny nation of Israel. Soon, Israel will act pre-emptively to eliminate the threat she faces from Iran. Will a small war or large war follow? If you were a Jewish person living in Israel, would you trust your fate to the kindness of a radicalized Iran? If I had relatives in Israel, I would advise them to leave the country.

 

[RLENT]

There is no "Golden Rule" in foreign relations - never has been, never will be (unless it's "trust but verify").

Shhhh .... the Swiss might hear you ....

The U.S. State Dept. maintains a list of terrorist organizations, along with several other countries like Australia, Britain, Russia, Canada, India, plus the European Union and the United Nations; all of these have terrorist lists, and there are probably others such as Spain that have them also.

I'd bet that Iran and Iraq might even have one .... possibly Afghanistan as well ..... unpublished though they maybe ....

..... and looks like Egypt may have recently added 19 or so terrorist organization member names to theirs ....

Maybe I missed it, but the U.S. doesn't seem to be on any of their lists - how funny is that?

Not half as funny as having a pile of bipartisan hacks - which amounts to a virtual who's who list of Neoconmunists™ and their assorted fellow travelers - racking in millions and lobbying to get the MEK - the People's Mujahedin of Iran (a weird, whacked-out Islamic/Marxist cult that has been accused of killing at least 6 Americans - and which is is a designated Foreign Terrorist Organization) taken off said US terrorist list.

The individuals involved include:

Obama's recently-departed National Security Adviser Gen. James Jones; former Bush Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge; onetime State Department Counselor Philip Zelikow and former CIA directors Porter Goss and James R. Woolsey.

Retired military officers seem very popular -- former NATO Supreme Allied Commander Gen. Wesley K. Clark and former Commander in Chief of United States Central Command Gen. Anthony Zinni have both addressed MEK groups. Yet more speakers appear to have been chosen for their deep political ties, such as former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, former New Mexico Gov. and U.N. Ambassador Bill Richardson, former Bush White House Chief of Staff Andy Card, former Indiana Sen. Evan Bayh and former 9/11 Commission Chairman Lee Hamilton.

The cheerleading section at one event included former FBI director Louis Freeh, Ed Rendell, the former Democratic governor of Pennsylvania and current MSNBC talking head; former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean; former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Hugh Shelton; former Secretary of Veterans Affairs Togo West; former State Department Director of Policy Planning Mitchell Reiss; former Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. James T. Conway; Anita McBride, the former chief of staff to First Lady Laura Bush; and Sarah Sewall, a Harvard professor.

Mujahideen-e Khalq (MEK) is alleged to have been involved in the following terrorist acts (among many, many others) and has killed six Amercians:

• The PMOI failed in an attempt to kidnap the U.S. Ambassador to Iran, Douglas MacArthur II, on November 30, 1971.
• USAF Brig. Gen. Harold Price was wounded in a May 1972 assassination attempt.
• The first success in the assassination campaign was the murder of Lt. Col. Louis Lee Hawkins, a U.S. Army comptroller. He was shot to death in front of his home in Tehran by two men on a motorcycle on 1973-06-02.
• A car carrying U.S. Air Force officers Col. Paul Shaffer and Lt. Col. Jack Turner was trapped between two cars carrying armed men. They told the Iranian driver to lie down and then shot and killed the Americans. Six hours later a woman called reporters to claim the PMOI carried out the attack as retaliation for the recent death of prisoners at the hands of Iranian authorities.
• A car carrying three American employees of Rockwell International was attacked in May 1976. William Cottrell, Donald Smith, and Robert Krongard were killed. They had been working on the Ibex system for gathering intelligence on the neighboring USSR.

Mujahideen-e Khalq: Former U.S. Officials Make Millions Advocating For Terrorist Organization

Of course, considering how exceedingly brilliant the terminally stupid naturally are, cozying up to these folks is undoubtedly just a swell idea .... and mebbe if we're really, really lucky it will work out as good as our support and legitimizing of Bin Laden did ....

 

[RLENT]

Pilgrim, you do realize you're trying to reason with the Ron Paul School of Idealism, right?

And Neoconmie™ "reasoning" need not apply ....

This belief system isn't based in reality.

I'll say it's not - the Neoconmunist™ belief system is based in some sort of freaked out ideology based on a whacked out, moral-degenerate professor (Leo_Strauss) from the University of Chicago - who believed that the citizens of a nation should be constantly lied to and kept in a state of perpetual deception about the affairs of state - a premise that directly contradicts the very plain words and advices of the Founding Fathers.

In fact, if I remember correctly (and in this instance I certainly do) you yourself espoused that very idea (something about propaganda )

Hmmm ......

Ron Paul must certainly have been heavily influenced by watching Mister Rogers' Neighborhood.

Actually, I think it had more to do with reading the Bible and the Constitution ....

(Remember: It's never too late to start ....)

Reality is having thousands of nuclear warheads targeted for mutually assured destruction of our nation as well as our adversaries.

Precisely - so let's not ever talk to those adversaries, engage in diplomacy, and at least seek to get along without destroying one another ..... but instead engage in provocative, war-like actions which might reduce this planet to a cinder ....

That's so smart that I fail to see how anyone could miss the inherent wisdom of it ....

Reality is the Middle East tinderbox set to ignite on a moment's notice.

Yup - so let's toss as much gasoline on it as we possibly can .... and then start flickin' that Zippo .....

It's pure genius !

Reality is a few million Israelis surrounded by a hundred million Muslims who wish for the state of Israel to disappear.

That - alone - is a real good reason to be following the Golden Rule .....

The United States has repeatedly pledged to defend the tiny nation of Israel. Soon, Israel will act pre-emptively to eliminate the threat she faces from Iran. Will a small war or large war follow?

Wars can take many forms ..... military .... economic ....

Please tell me: How exactly do you see the loss of the US Dollar's status as the world's reserve currency ultimately working out ?

If you were a Jewish person living in Israel, would you trust your fate to the kindness of a radicalized Iran? If I had relatives in Israel, I would advise them to leave the country.

I would too - either that, or reform the government and get honest and straight with the native people that the Israelis have displaced and have stolen from (and continue to steal from) over the last 60 years .....

 

[RLENT]

..... and looks like Egypt may have recently added 19 or so terrorist organization member names to theirs ....

Scratch that ..... looks like it's 43 names, not 19:

Egypt names 43 targeted in democracy groups inquiry

 

[Turtle]

True enough, living by the Golden Rule is idealistic. It's a goal by which I try and live my life. I'm not always 100% successful, but I do try my best to treat others as I expect to be treated. The concept of the Golden Rule works with individuals and with groups both large and small. The entire New Testament is based on this idealistic Golden Rule, and to say the Golden Rule isn't reality, or doesn't work in reality, smacks, slightly, of hypocrisy. Just a little.

The whole concept of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is steeped in the Golden Rule. So is "Make no entangling alliances". The Golden Rule and the 'don't meddle in other people's business' was, in fact, this country's founding principles and the foundation of our foreign policy until WW I. Since then, we as a country have dismissed the Golden Rule as irrelevant in order to pursue our own selfish interests and gratifications. Entangling alliances and meddling in the affairs of others has not only become routine, it's the very foundation of our foreign policy. And that's just nuts.

It's got nothing to do with Ron Paul, it has everything to do with how you want to be treated and how you treat others. And it's that simple.

Countries and government come and go, but the one constant throughout history is the problems in the Middle East. The problems in the Middle East were in full swing long before Columbus even knew what a boat was, and they'll still be there long after the United States morphs into something else. The reason is, Jews and Muslims by and large pay very little attention to the New Testament and it's Golden Rule foundation. We were raised on it, so we should know better. We used to follow it, but now we dismiss it as not being realistic. The reason it's not realistic is, of course, because we dismissed it long ago in favor of our own self-interests at the expense of others.

We, England mainly, but in cooperation with the other western entangling alliances, created the State of Israel. Artificially. And we swore to protect it. That's the very definition of meddling and entangling alliance. But of course our meddling didn't start or stop there. Our meddling touches every corner of the world. Some of it is pure self-interest at the expense of other's interests, and some of it is because of the necessary compounding of meddling to fix previous meddling.

We need to take the steps necessary to reverse the meddling and get out of the entangling alliances. That doesn't mean suddenly just get up and walk away from our commitments, because that wouldn't be very Golden Rule, either. But we can't fix all the meddling with more meddling, that's for certain. We probably won't take the steps necessary to reduce the meddling and the entangling alliances, because too many people are hypocritical when it comes to the Golden Rule. They don't have a problem with treating others in a manner they themselves would not tolerate. They like the meddling, they like the entangling alliances, they like the death and destruction which results. In some sick twisted way it makes them feel better about themselves. It makes them feel more powerful, to the point of being indestructible. Yet at the same time they fear everything around them. These people have completely ignored history, and it is repeating itself.

The Ron Paul School of Idealism? How pedestrian. No, this isn't about some school of idealism, it's about reality. Real, in your face, reality. Ignore it at your, and our, peril.