Nuts!

purgoose10

Veteran Expediter
No one here has mentioned the fact that someone taking the orders at Mickey D's that's sharp, well groomed, talked like he or she had some sense might in fact be waiting on Mr or Mrs CEO. I like your attitude, ever thought about doing something else? You never know who your addressing.
When I was released from the Hospital after VN I had no where to go. A friend taught me to drive a truck. I kept that truck cleaner than the other 15 did. Next thing Gulf offered me a job w/out asking because I took pride in myself, my job and my equipment. You never know.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
We all work for the same "boss", ourselves. We either aim high and drive ahead or wait to be cared for. There is nothing in between. We may all fail, BUT, it is FAR better to try and fail than to be cared for like a pet.

I, for one, would MUCH rather die broke than have my needs met by someone else, like the government.

A SPINE is a GREAT thing to own!

A SPINE is one of the FEW things they can take from you.

Pride is another.

So is DRIVE.

Ambition.

I see a trend here.
 
Last edited:

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
30 years ago McDonalds and other fast food outlets were starter jobs. That was when we still had a manufacturing based economy. Today we have a service based economy and service jobs are no longer starter jobs. It's just that simple. Education and skills and 'Grumpy Old Walter' mentalities have nothing to do with it. There are plenty of college graduates and older, highly skilled people working these so-called starter jobs.

Regardless of what you think of these worthless, unskilled, uneducated burger-flippers, do keep in mind that it's honest work for an honest dollar. If faced with the choice of living on welfare or earning honest money as a burger-flipper, I'll take flipping burgers every time.

In the restaurant industry the physical costs (building, insurance, utilities, etc.) and government intrusions do not make or break the bottom line. They are almost afterthoughts. The only thing that really matters are the Prime Costs. The Prime Costs are the combination of Food Costs and Labor Costs. If the Prime Costs are not in line, nothing else matters. And if they are properly in line, likewise nothing else matters.

The Prime Costs are figured as a percentage of total sales. If total sales for the week is $20,000 and the total cost of food and beverage is $7,000 for that week, the total food cost is considered to be 35 percent. If, at the same restaurant, labor (including payroll taxes and benefits) equal $5,000 for the week, then the labor cost is 25 percent. Total Prime Costs are 60 percent in this example, and 60 percent is in the typical range for the industry.

Luxury and sit-down restaurants will typically have higher Prime Costs, with food being as high as 38 percent and labor being as high as 30-35 percent, while fast food Prime Costs can be as low 20 percent for labor (McDonald's is typically 25 percent) and food costs being as low as 30 percent (McDonald's is typically 35 percent).

It's the total Prime Cost percentage that matters. Your labor cost can be high, but if your food cost is low, and the total Prime Cost is in line of 60-65 percent, you're good to go. If your Prime Costs are consistently at 70 percent or higher, or 55 percent or lower, there is no escaping the fact that you're going out of business sooner rather than later.

If the base rate of pay in a restaurant is $7.50 and it gets doubled to $15 an hour, running the labor cost from 25 percent to 50 percent, there is simply no way that the restaurant can stay in business. Can't happen.

On a side note, those who see restaurant owners driving nice cars and living in nice houses and think that that somehow equates to them making money hand over fist, that's at the very least short-sighted, considering the norm for Americans is to drive cars and live in houses they cannot afford and are beyond their means. A restaurant owner makes 5-10 percent of sales. That's it. One restaurant and it's closer to 5 percent (sometimes lower), three or more restaurants and it's closer to 10 percent, depending on the restaurant and whether there are franchise fees involved.

Burger King charges its franchisees 4.5% of sales in addition to a $50,000 annual franchise fee, and Dunkin' Donuts has its franchisees cough up 5.9% of sales each year in addition to a franchise fee that can range anywhere from $40,000 to $80,000, depending upon the location. McDonald's has the highest franchise fees in the industry, 12.5% of annual sales, plus an annual $45,000 franchise fee (standard contract length is 20 years, which automatically renews annually after that). Depending on the cost of the property and the location, McDonald's startup fees range from $500,000 to $1.6 million.

But wait, it gets better. In order to maintain consistency among their offerings at every location, most franchises insist that their franchisees buy raw materials (food mainly, but also building and marketing materials) directly from them or from a supplier with which they have a "special" relationship, meaning that the franchisors receive rebates on what the franchisees order. In any case, the prices that they charge for these materials (either the company or the supplier) are often much higher than what the materials would be sold for elsewhere on the free market.

It's not uncommon for some fast-food franchisees to pay 5-10% above prevailing market value for a box of lettuce or tomatoes, or other produce that could easily be bought elsewhere. But, produce is produce, right? It's fairly consistent from vendor to vendor. The point is that over a year's time, the premium that a franchisee may have to pay for raw materials can equate to serious money off the bottom line, money that keeps a food cost 5-10% higher than it could be (as with, say, a wholly-owned restaurant where the chef goes to the farmer's market each day to buy the menu for that day).

If the franchisee does decide to go elsewhere for its raw materials and it violate the contract, the franchise will usually terminate the relationship and, more often than not, the franchisee loses his entire investment.

Subtract the Prime Costs of payroll and food costs, and taxes - in addition to these royalties - and it's easy to see why life as a franchisee may not be the life of luxury you imagine.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
This is the United States of America, at least it is for now. I started a trucking company, with no experience, 8 years ago, at age 54. NO ONE can tell me that those that are YOUNGER cannot do similar.

I can tell you this, FOR SURE! IF I find that I cannot meet my goals and dreams as an expediter I WILL start ANOTHER business, at 62!

I am sick and tired of COWARDS whining about how hard life is. How unfair it is.

BULL HOCKEY!

One either has a spine, or does not.

Manufacturing does not matter. Start your own plant. Start your own business. Move for better work. JUST STOP DEMANDING AND WHINING!!

Grow up already! Don't like Mickey D's wages? DON'T WORK THERE! Start your OWN burger chain and kick their butts!!!

THAT is what ADULTS DO!

I DARE anyone to prove me wrong!

Sorry butt no good for nothing pieces of dog doodoo!

Ain't got no balls? Go to "Balls are Us" don't get another piercing, or a tattoo, or get drunk or high, BUY SOME BALLS with that welfare money!

Geez already!

NO GUTS NOT GLORY!

NEED I SAY MORE?
 
Last edited:

usafk9

Veteran Expediter
It is brain numbing. FLIP FLIP. Yes, IF you want to make it a career you CAN move up the ladder. Which is why I said the manager had to do something, not the flippers.

Flipping burgers is a VERY good place to start out in life. It is, in NO way a $15 per hour job. That would drive prices through the roof. It would put many places out of business, margins are too thin.

I also don't look at becoming a multi-millionaire the ONLY goal in life. There are many who make much less, like nurses, or firefighters who do important work and never become rich. They are not flippers either.

I could never pay my people that at Gander Mountain either. The margins were not there to support it. We had to work on a MINIMUM 35% margin, just to pay the bills.

I have a couple of thoughts:

You said in a previous post that McDonalds workers don't make minimum wage. Ummmm....yes, they do.

Second, you implied the manager works much higher. If he or she does, I'm curious how much you think they should be paid per hour.

Lastly, you made a reference to operating margins. McDonalds is not at the mercy of their suppliers; the opposite is true, right down to exactly the size of coop the chickens live in and the food they get fed in order to be future McNuggets. About the only prices McDonalds does not control in their price structure are taxes, mandated wage levels, and the price of real estate. To imply that their margins are too tight, and therefore, can't possibly pay people more is ludicrous. They control their margins, period. They are the Wal-Mart of the crap food business.
 

xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Many md pay more than minumin. My daughter started at 8.00. It does go on supply and demand. They also don't control many costs like utilities and insurance, parking lot upkeep. and more. Both they and walmart only control product cost to a certain point. Suppliers of booth, tables and such bid for that contract they don't tell them what they will pay its a competition. Sure they come from a place og power but supliers do have to make a profit to continue to stay in business.

Sent from my Fisher Price ABC-123.
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
Look, once marginal revenue meets marginal cost, the point of profit maximization is reached. If the cost goes up, the price goes up. Doesn't matter if it's labor, raw materials, real estate, utilities, franchise fees, insurance, etc., etc..... the end user just pays more. That's the way it works in any business. If the labor cost goes up, the crap on a bun gets more expensive. It's that simple...
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I have a couple of thoughts:

You said in a previous post that McDonalds workers don't make minimum wage. Ummmm....yes, they do.
Some do, some don't. Depends on the labor market. Most pay higher than minimum wage, actually.

Second, you implied the manager works much higher. If he or she does, I'm curious how much you think they should be paid per hour.
It varies greatly by region, location and experience, but Hourly Managers (Shift Leaders) are paid in a range of $9.70 to $12.00 an hour, plus overtime and salaried benefits. Assistant Managers are paid in a range of $27,000-$34,000 with an average of $31,000. General Managers range in pay is $32,000-$48,000, with an average to $39,000 a year. Those are numbers for franchise positions. For management positions in McOpCo stores the salaries are about 20% higher on the average.

Lastly, you made a reference to operating margins. McDonalds is not at the mercy of their suppliers; the opposite is true, right down to exactly the size of coop the chickens live in and the food they get fed in order to be future McNuggets.
Not really. McDonalds has some very specific requirements, both in terms of product specifications and quality control that they impose on their suppliers, but it's not really any different than any other business which require vendors to produce products to certain specs. Especially businesses with multiple locations where the products they sell must be consistent from location to location.

In the case of chickens, McDonalds mandates that chicken coops be a minimum size, not an exact size, especially for laying hens. They also mandate that forced molting not be performed. They do that to prevent chicken farmers from abusing the chickens. They don't mandate, per say, what chickens are fed, but they do mandate minimum nutritional content of the feed, in order to produce a consistent quality of eggs and chickens. Chicken and egg suppliers are certainly free to treat and feed their chickens any way they want, it's just that McDonalds won't buy from them if they aren't produced to the proper specifications. Just like any automotive supplier, for example.

About the only prices McDonalds does not control in their price structure are taxes, mandated wage levels, and the price of real estate. To imply that their margins are too tight, and therefore, can't possibly pay people more is ludicrous. They control their margins, period. They are the Wal-Mart of the crap food business.
Don't confuse McDonalds Corporation with a franchise. See my post above - McDonalds franchises (about 85% of all McDonalds) have much smaller margins than people think.

A modest 50 cent an hour raise to all hourly employees across the board will turn an average labor cost of 25.1% into 27.7%, which is enough to push the upper end of the 60-65% Prime Cost range that makes or breaks a restaurant. To think McDonalds can pay all it's employees an average of $12 an hour instead of $8 is to be wholly ignorant of the business.

70% of restaurant managers, 50% of McDonald's corporate staff and 45% of Owner Operators started as hourly restaurant crew. While I never worked as an hourly employee in a fast food restaurant, I hired plenty of them. My restaurant management career started with a McDonalds franchise location at 20 years old as an Assistant Manager, and then I became a General Manager a couple of years later. After that I was an Assistant Manager, General Manager and Regional Manager at Denny's (corporate), and then a District Manager at Wendy's (franchise), was a manager and part owner in a Fuddruckers (where I learned butchering and how to toot-sweet debone a cow), then for a few years was the GM at an independent upscale steak restaurant. My first job in a restaurant was in a French restaurant as a dishwasher (at $1.60 an hour), then a cook's assistant, broiler cook, and then a sous chef (at considerably more than $1.60 an hour). I know the restaurant business backwards and forwards from just about every perspective.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Look, once marginal revenue meets marginal cost, the point of profit maximization is reached. If the cost goes up, the price goes up. Doesn't matter if it's labor, raw materials, real estate, utilities, franchise fees, insurance, etc., etc..... the end user just pays more. That's the way it works in any business. If the labor cost goes up, the crap on a bun gets more expensive. It's that simple...

That's true, but only to a certain point. The price of the product can never go above what the market will bear. That's true of a anything, be it a Big Mac, a Ford Ranger, tennis racket or a widget. It's the sales revenue that determine the labor and materials cost, not the other way around. It's like advertising, where people think part of the price you pay for a product is because of advertising and is to cover advertising costs. It's not. It's the other way around, actually, where advertising budgets are based on sales revenue. For example, of you sell a widget for $20 each, and then your advertising budget equals $3 per widget, you can't just bump up the price of widgets to $23 to cover your advertising costs. The market won't allow it. Bob's Budget Widgets over there will clean your clock at $20 a widget, and he won't even have to advertise. You take profit dollars and redirect them into an advertising budget to convince people to buy more of your widgets at $20, thereby selling more of them at that price to make more profit. The profit margin per unit is lower, but increased sales volume more than makes up the bottom line difference. If your costs go up and you raise the price of the product accordingly, and the product doesn't sell, you're out of business.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
If the cost goes up, the price goes up.

Maybe. Sometimes the prices don't change. Compare the size of the current Biggie cup at Wendy's to the Biggie cup from a decade ago. Both 99 cents. The difference being about half the capacity.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Maybe. Sometimes the prices don't change. Compare the size of the current Biggie cup at Wendy's to the Biggie cup from a decade ago. Both 99 cents. The difference being about half the capacity.
Many people were confused by the designation of Biggie and Great Biggie (the former large and extra-large sizes). You are apparently one of them.

A decade ago:
Small - 12 oz
Medium - 16 oz
Biggie - 32 oz
Great Biggie - 42 oz

Wendy's discontinued use of their Biggie trademark in 2006, but increased regular portion sizes to match previous Biggie sizes. Removing the Biggie designation makes size less of an issue for people who want to talk about restaurants, especially fast-food restaurants, who offer excessively large portions.

Today:
Value - 16 oz
Small - 20 oz
Medium - 32 oz
Large - 42 oz
 

Humble2drive

Expert Expediter
The Shelled one said:
Assistant Managers are paid in a range of $27,000-$34,000 with an average of $31,000.

Let's do the math and put the demands of these workers in perspective:

$15.00 x 40 hours x 52 weeks = $31,200.00 per year.

These slugs are demanding to be paid at the Assistant Manager rate without earning the position. Living in America sure makes some people feel entitled. :(
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Let's do the math and put the demands of these workers in perspective:

$15.00 x 40 hours x 52 weeks = $31,200.00 per year.

These slugs are demanding to be paid at the Assistant Manager rate without earning the position. Living in America sure makes some people feel entitled. :(


And this is only the tip of the entitlement iceberg. The NEXT big one? Watch for college loans to be "forgiven". WHICH means that us taxpayers will have paid for the little darlin's degrees in partying and basket weaving. :mad:
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
My main point was the size of the cup for 99 cents and that sometimes when costs go up prices don't go up, serving sizes go down.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You know we are heading that direction when criminal aliens are given lower in state tuition rates while legal U.S. citizens are charged higher out of state rates.
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
That's true, but only to a certain point. The price of the product can never go above what the market will bear.

Quite true but the market will bear more than it currently is. People like to say what they will and will not pay but when push comes to shove they may grumble, but they pay it. Case in point, gasoline.


It's the sales revenue that determine the labor and materials cost, not the other way around. It's like advertising, where people think part of the price you pay for a product is because of advertising and is to cover advertising costs. It's not. It's the other way around, actually, where advertising budgets are based on sales revenue.

Revenue does not determine labor and material cost, at least in the micro sense. It can be used as a rule of thumb to create a budget for the following year and often is but it does not drive these costs. As far as advertising, it is common practice to cut advertising when revenue goes down but really, common sense dictates that if business is down it is time to advertise. That cost is in fact passed on to the customer.

For example, of you sell a widget for $20 each, and then your advertising budget equals $3 per widget, you can't just bump up the price of widgets to $23 to cover your advertising costs.

Not only can you bump up the price, you must bump it up if you want to maintain the same profit margin.

The market won't allow it. Bob's Budget Widgets over there will clean your clock at $20 a widget, and he won't even have to advertise.

Bob's budget widgets will in fact siphon off some of the business you describe but with an inferior product. We are seeing this in spades with the huge expansion of stores like Dollar General and Family Dollar. The quality is not the same as some of the other chains but in down times when money is tight, consumers are willing to settle.

You take profit dollars and redirect them into an advertising budget to convince people to buy more of your widgets at $20, thereby selling more of them at that price to make more profit. The profit margin per unit is lower, but increased sales volume more than makes up the bottom line difference. If your costs go up and you raise the price of the product accordingly, and the product doesn't sell, you're out of business.

They are only profit dollars if you have turned a profit. Most companies fail because they do not properly determine their opportunity cost, that is what their cost per widget is, based on both fixed and variable cost. They might set it at the beginning of the year and then not evaluate it again til a year or more later. This is why smart companies employ full time economists.

In basic economic terms, in an Oligopoly such as McDonald's and the other big fast food corps. find themselves in, the competition for labor is going to be pretty much level because they are all fishing from the same ponds for employees. If one raises their wage the others are likely to follow suit so as not to be left with the inferior workers.

As far as the sales revenue is concerned, they will raise the prices and the consumer will pay the price. Recently, Wendy's replaced their .99 menu with a more expensive "Every Day Value Menu". I haven't noticed any shorter lines at the Wendy's I go to. Same with McDonald's. They have a few items that are still $1.00 but they are usually loss leaders and are for short periods of time.

The market will bear a significant wage increase at McDonalds and anywhere else it happens in an industry that has become part of American culture. Whether Detroit will stand for an increase that reflects a $15.00 per hour wage remains to be seen but if it happens I submit the city will in fact support it. In the early 20th Century Henry Ford doubled the pay for his workers because he realized if they were to be able to afford his automobiles themselves they would need more money. It worked. It didn't hurt the market for his automobiles one bit, in fact Ford's market share grew. I'm not saying that McDonald's employees would now come out in droves to buy McDonald's food but it isn't likely to damage the bottom line as much as one might think.
 
Last edited:

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
That's what I used to do for a living, every day - work with the bottom line. I saw it, and I saw it at several different types of restaurants in both the big and small picture. I'm not talking generalities, theories or long-held beliefs, I'm talking about real-world applications cause and effect. I saw what happened when labor or material cost got out of whack, and it was, in fact, sales that determined what the labor costs and materials had to be.

BTW, I'll have you know that Bob's Budget Widgets are of the highest quality. :D
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I don't think you could use gas as a comparison. That is a staple necessity for most to go to work and the like. I don't think a fast food place would fall in to that catagory.
But from a competition standpoint, the cheapest station on the corner gets the business. If they raise the price for wages, customers will go to the cheapest long before they will pay extra.

As for restaurants, you have the same wage battle going on in the mid-scale restaurants. Darden(which owns Red Lobter & Olive Garden) is slashing hours to avoid paying for healthcare. Several others are going to follow. Just raising prices isn't going to work. Darden did that a year ago and their sales crashed. McDonalds will take the same hit if they were to pay that kind of wage. People will go to Burger King for the 2 dollar Whopper before they pay 6 dollars for a Mac.
 
Top