No American Flag Can Fly over our Compound in..

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Poorboy..are other countries flying their flag?

Joe...I knew you'd get all fired up....

BUT we have NO right to fly the colors...ON land that is NOT ours....

It is aid..NOT a take over...just helping with aid...

if you want people to pat us on the back then drop leaflets

this Spam brought to you by the U.S of A

you mentioned something about letting the people know we are there...WHY? Do we need their gratitude so much and the warm fuzzies? I think like Turtle said with all our C-130's and ya can not miss them...the people know we are there...
 

witness23

Veteran Expediter
Romans 12:16 (New International Version)
16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[a] Do not be conceited.
 

witness23

Veteran Expediter
Philippians 2:3-4 (New International Version)
3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Americans always want that slap on the back

The look at me and look what we done for you...and they spend billions of dollars to BUY world respect...

and to raise a flag in a foreign country just shows the arrogance of some...
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Well a lot of things are done not to offend people, I don't really give a cr*p about the flag - I don't want our military used for disaster relief, this is not their job to help out. They are there to Defend our country and only defend our country.

We used to have our citizens take part in relief efforts, it used to be that we had a good system that has since been taken over by the feds and it has been more of "do what I tell you or else" attitude.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
most countries do this aid thing for future favours and past pay backs..

Maybe in 150 years there will be some military struggle close to Haiti and the US will say remember how we helped you out and saved millions of your people....time to pay us back and use your airport to land our military planes.

and its all for show...those C-130's are awesome...those poor people will be impressed
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OVM,
We dump a lot of money into disaster relief throughout the world through our military. The ROI to the tax payer is a lot less than if we use citizens instead. Outside of deployment and equipement movement, there is no reason to use them for any reason.

The Haitian country is and has been a mess for 40 years. It needs to be rebuilt from the ground up with the carribian union to be involved, not the US or the UN. Most of the problems are internal to the region, not to the world.
 

jujubeans

OVM Project Manager
Of course darling...but this is a foriegn country...where just maybe we did not ask permission? And it isn't Embassy land...we are just guests...it is not appropriate.


Sorry babe...but if we are there and we want to sew the flag to the backs of our jackets or put up a flagpole..we are Americans and I see absolutely nothing wrong with taking our flag with us! We take our money, our volunteers, our time and our can do attitude. Our flag is just part of us!
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Has the Haitian government requested all nations assisting to refrain from displaying their nation's flag? If so, are they doing it anyway against the request? If not, are some/most/all of them flying their own flags in the area assigned to them? I doubt there has been a request to not fly flags. I doubt that one moderate size flag placed in the center of the American bivouac is going to traumatize that nation.

Was someone possibly suggesting erecting a 200 foot flagpole for a 45x75 foot flag? In that case they should be told no, it's excessive. If they want about a 6x10 foot flag in the center of a few/several acre space what's the big deal? In the case of the former I agree the answer is no. In the case of the latter then Obama and anyone backing his decision is wrong.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
some facts are missing eh? did we ask permission?
Do others fly theirs...

I agree with Leo this time..more info is needed before we go off on a tangent....nothing wrong with a small flag within our compound...but over an International Airport?
Was our flag bigger then theirs? Was it above theirs...we don't know...
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
nothing wrong with a small flag within our compound...but over an International Airport?

Nothing wrong with it there either if that's where our bivouac is and it's within the bivouac area. Now, if we went to the primary flagpole of the airport and put our flag on top of all others that's wrong. I haven't been there but I know that hasn't happened. Obama has overreacted. He is wrong. It's no surprise.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Leo: "Has the Haitian government requested all nations assisting to refrain from displaying their nation's flag?"

No, they requested the two American Flags, which the US military had raised above the Haiti airport, be taken down. Because the US base of operations is at the airport, someone had actually lowered the Haitian flag above the main airport terminal and replaced it with the US Flag, and then had the Haitian flag flying underneath the American Flag. There was also a temporary consulate set up on the tarmac that had the US Flag hoisted above it. Because the tarmac, nor the airport, is US soil, it gave the wrong impression that the US military had taken over the airport in a military operation.

Apparently the Haitian Prime Minister said something to the US Ambassador in Haiti about having the US flags that were flying over the airport be taken down. The US flag is positioned above the entrance to the main building of the US compound, however.

Only those who never served would go along with this stupidity. Don't tell me I don't have a clue. You don't have that right.
I don't have that right? Oh, I absolutely have that right. I have the right to speak my mind as I see fit. If you don't like it, tough. Having served or not has no bearing on stupidity.

I will tell you that you don't have a clue about what is going on down there. And I will because you don't have a clue. It's painfully, and embarrassingly obvious that you don't have the slightest clue about what is going on down there.

I have a cousin who is currently an officer attached to the 82nd Airborne, career military now in his 30th year. Among many deployments, he has served three tours in Iraq, two in Afghanistan, and is now in Haiti. I've talked with him twice since he's been down there. If anyone has earned an opinion about flying the flag above the airport down there, it's him. You don't have a clue as to what is going on down there. And if he doesn't have a problem in the least about the flag not flying over the airport, neither should you. If you had a clue what was going on down there, what they are doing and what it's all about, both on the ground and diplomatically, you wouldn't have a problem with it, either. But you don't have a clue, and that's why you have a problem with it.

YOU have an OPINION, nothing more. YOUR OPINION is no more valid than mine.
Perhaps, but at least mine is a well informed opinion. Yours clearly isn't.

I HAVE a clue.
No, you don't.

I have served in several capacities overseas, both official and otherwise.
Not relevant. Sorry.

Military and relief efforts.
I don't believe you. Military perhaps, maybe, but not relief efforts, otherwise you'd know, for sure, that part of the US military's job is both relief and humanitarian efforts, yet you state quite plainly below that relief and humanitarian efforts is not their job. That's not only wrong, it's just butt-stoopid, as the US has a long and proud history of using its military for relief and humanitarian efforts. Anyone, anyone, who has served in the military doing relief efforts would know that. And since you don't know that, I have to strongly question your claims of having served in a relief effort capacity.

That flag should FLY HIGH AND PROUD!!
Why? We're there to help people, not take ownership of the frigging airport.

When it comes down to it, NO other country on this earth will put out the efforts for other than this one. PERIOD!
So? It has nothing to do with flying the flag over the Haiti airport as if we've conquered the airport just to make someone without a clue feel good about themselves.

Our military should not even be there. It is NOT their job. Their job is to defend this nation. They are there as a GIFT from the people of this country and are doing a job that is not theirs to do. FLY IT HIGH!!
See, that's why I question both your military service, as well as your sanity. §3062 of Title 10 US Code defines the job of the military, and part of that definition, in addition to "preserving the peace and security, and providing for the defense, of the United States, the Commonwealths and possessions," it lists "supporting the national policies", of which relief and humanitarian efforts are a part, and "implementing the national objectives," which also includes humanitarian and disaster relief.

This is from the Department of the Army, Pamphlet 10-1, Organization of the United States Army , page 12:

Da_Pam_10-1_-_Figure_1-2_Small.jpg


What part of "Humanitarian Assistance" and "Disaster Relief" do you not understand?


Don't like that attitude? TOUGH!!
No, I don't like that attitude, because it flies in the face of what makes America great. What makes America great is not it's military might, but in its humanity in treating others as they should be treated, in doing what is morally right. You're more interested in flying the flag to show some kind of warped sense of pride, rather than in what that flag represents.

I am an old fashioned, flag waving proud of EVERYTHING I have done American. I make no bones about it and apologize to NO man for the RIGHT!!
Good for you.

Don't ANYONE even TRY to diminish the efforts of my "brothers and sisters" They are EARNING the right to see that flag fly!! As did everyone of us who served with honor in the past as will those who serve in the future.
And don't elevate yourself or anyone else to a position greater than it is. Don't elevate yourself above those you serve. Serving in the military is an important thing, but it's not the most important thing. Just because someone serves in the military does not somehow make them more special than any other American. You have to ask yourself, did you serve in the military to help preserve the American way of life, or did you serve so that when you got out you could be worshiped and revered and thanked on a continuous basis? Because it's the latter that you seem to so desperately want.
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
Poorboy..are other countries flying their flag?

Joe...I knew you'd get all fired up....

BUT we have NO right to fly the colors...ON land that is NOT ours....

It is aid..NOT a take over...just helping with aid...

if you want people to pat us on the back then drop leaflets

this Spam brought to you by the U.S of A

you mentioned something about letting the people know we are there...WHY? Do we need their gratitude so much and the warm fuzzies? I think like Turtle said with all our C-130's and ya can not miss them...the people know we are there...

I'm Not Sure But, According to Chefs Post They Are! :D
 
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jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Just a little insight from my perspective on the flying of the American Flag. When I served in S. Korea and in Germany I looked at the flag flying over our Compound in S. Korea, and our Barracks in Germany as a sign of a home away from home. Maybe I'm wrong but while serving overseas it was kinda like coming home to a fire burning in the fireplace. It wasn't the gates or the armed guards that gave me that warm and fuzzy feeling. :D

I don't like the fact (if it is a fact) that the U.S. was told to take down our Flag. My opinion is that the U.S. Military and the Flag go hand in hand. I also don't think that it needed to be prominently displayed, it would be fine with me if it was displayed in the tent city area where our troops are.

As far as using the Military for humanitarian missions, I really don't like it. But there is no other organization in the U.S. capable of responding as quickly and as efficiently as the Military. So its left to the Military. Most in the Military I think are proud to be able to help someone in need, but if you asked them why they joined the Military most would put that in the lower half of the list.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
As far as using the Military for humanitarian missions, I really don't like it. But there is no other organization in the U.S. capable of responding as quickly and as efficiently as the Military. So its left to the Military.

My complaint is that there are troops on the ground and there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are willing to go in their place. The problems with using the military for a number of functions when citizens can be used presents other problems that I won't get into here.

However, the military can be used as a logistics and transport provider when needed. This is a great job for them, to get supplies to the area.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Yes other countries are flying their flags...just google the topic and you will find articles showing those flags (of course they might be all "photoshopped"...) The fact is as Turtle stated, our fly was over the desert and torn to pieces airport (we set up a compound on what was said to be the only level piece of tarmac, then we set out repaiing the rest of the place so planes could be flown in....the haitians asked that we remove our flags.....The UN made the formal request because THEY the UN are in charge there and all countries helping out there are there at the requset of the UN.....barry and his state dept then mandated that our commanders in haiti remove the flags....

I haven't read where we removed the haitian flag, and i am not saying that didn't happen, if it did, that was wrong too, but there is no way that our flag should not be flown over our compound..as Jim said, the Military and the flag go hand in hand...
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Just a little insight from my perspective on the flying of the American Flag. When I served in S. Korea and in Germany I looked at the flag flying over our Compound in S. Korea, and our Barracks in Germany as a sign of a home away from home. Maybe I'm wrong but while serving overseas it was kinda like coming home to a fire burning in the fireplace.
I don't think you are wrong at all - for those who truly understand what are the best things that that symbol represents, it can be a source of great pride and inspiration - whether one is (or was) in the military or not.

However, for those who are well-informed as to our nation's history, and are willing to look at that with unflinching eyes, it can just as easily be the reverse ..... the two are not mutually exclusive.

Indeed, one could argue that being able to do both provides a more balanced view .....

I don't like the fact (if it is a fact) that the U.S. was told to take down our Flag.
That's understandable - but, the U.S. (apparently) wasn't told to take our flag down - the Prime Minister of Haiti saw it, and commented about it, and the U.S. Ambassador agreed that flying it in the place and manner that we were gave an incorrect impression, or at least left it open to giving the wrong impression:

"A U.S. flag went up at a temporary consular station set up in the first few days on the airport tarmac, according to Charles Luoma-Overstreet, a State Department spokesman in Haiti.

“Apparently, the prime minister (Jean-Max Bellerive) saw this” and thought it appeared as if the United States were taking over the airport, Luoma-Overstreet said.

He said Bellerive said something to U.S. Ambassador Kenneth Merten, who agreed that flying the flag wasn’t a good idea and told the consular officials to take it down."


Ask yourself this: If the shoe were on the other foot, and we suffered a similar disaster and the Red Chinese or Russians came and helped us out, how would you feel about them raising their flag above ours, at one of our facilities, on our soil ?

The entire thing is merely just a matter of having some respect and courtesy for another sovereign nation. It's a thing that is done regularly in the field of diplomatic relations ... despite the fact that the less well-informed among us seem to believe we ought to show no respect for, and extend no courtesy to, other nations.

One wonders whether such folks have ever heard of the Golden Rule, and whether they subscribe to the premise contained in that little bit of wisdom. Perhaps the most ironic thing is, is that those who tend to be loudest mouths in terms of demanding, that we as a nation, be respected, appear to be the least likely to extend the same courtesy to others (other nations)

My opinion is that the U.S. Military and the Flag go hand in hand.
That's largely true.

I also don't think that it needed to be prominently displayed, it would be fine with me if it was displayed in the tent city area where our troops are.
Bingo ! ........ and I would imagine that there would have been no controversy, had we raised our flag in some innocuous place like a camp or barracks - rather than over a sovereign nation's international airport.

Keep in mind that this is a poor country that has very little .... one could surmise that their airport is possibly a source of national pride and a symbol to them.

As far as using the Military for humanitarian missions, I really don't like it. But there is no other organization in the U.S. capable of responding as quickly and as efficiently as the Military. So its left to the Military.
Again, understandable - but as you point out, the above (particularly the bolded portion above) is undoubtedly true - so it falls to them.

Most in the Military I think are proud to be able to help someone in need, but if you asked them why they joined the Military most would put that in the lower half of the list.
I have little doubt that most in the military would take pride in helping others and representing what is one of the very best attributes of our our country: that we are, by and large, a humane and generous people .....
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I do happen to have some insight into this, direct from my cousin, as well as from his mother and his wife who have also talked with him several times. My cousin was there on Day-One. He's the Task Force Executive Officer, a Lieutenant Colonel. When the US Army first arrived, they secured the airport to allow for incoming flights. The Haitian flag that was flying over the main terminal building at the airport had been lowered, the US Flag put in its place, and then the Haitian flag placed just under the American Flag. It was a One Star General who ordered the US flag to be taken down from the terminal building, and the order came on the second day of operations. My cousin knows that for sure because he was the one who was given that order. He then instructed a Marine Lieutenant to remove the US flag and then raise the Haitian flag alone. Again, keep in mind, this was Day-Two. How long have we been down there now?

The problem is, the US base of operations there is in the main terminal building, in addition to using other buildings and tents in the area. So it's not like they can fly the flag above the temporary tent city that's used for the base compound or command post. Again, they're using the main terminal building, not a bunch of tents. At the entrance of the building, the American flag has been posted, but it no longer flies above the building itself.

The US Consulate and the State Department set up a temporary headquarters in a tent on the tarmac. Above it they hoisted the flag, which to me makes perfect sense, but it was apparently that flag that caught the attention of the Haitian Prime Minister. He may have seen the one above the airport, I don't know. In any case, he didn't want the US flag flying over the Haitian airport so as to not give the wrong impression. After all, this is a UN-run mission, not ours, and we're there to help out. The fact that we're helping out more than pretty much everyone else combined doesn't really matter.

On US tents outside the airport, the flag is being displayed just as it is displayed by other countries. If the US had its compound at some location other than the main terminal, then the flag would be flying above it. But to fly it over the main terminal, in a country we are not at war with or have not conquered, sends the wrong message.

But back to my original point, this flag nonsense is just that, nonsense. Whether the flag is flown or displayed at all is irrelevant and way, way, way secondary to the mission at hand. Yeah, OK, fine, Obama is pure evil, we all know that, even the ones who won't admit it, but what is going on in Haiti has nothing to do with Obama or where the flag is flown. It still makes me sick that people who call themselves Americans are more worried about a decision that Obama made, one that he himself didn't even make, and whether or not the flag is flying here or there, more worried about their own American pride and patting themselves on the back, than they are about the people of Haiti and what they have been and are going through.

Katrina was an afternoon walk in the park compared to Haiti. I don't think many people realize just how bad it is. It would be like Ohio, every last little bit of it, being leveled, with no power, no clean drinking water, food or medicine, with the stench of rotting bodies everywhere that you can't get to because they are under the rubble of homes and buildings, and no place to live other than tents. In a week or so it's gonna start raining, and it'll rain for the next 2 months. And people are desperate. People are dying of hunger or thirst. Some are dying because basic antibiotics cannot reach them. Broken bones turn into an infectious death. Some are being killed because they possess a bag of rice. Desperate.

And you're worried about whether the US flag flies above the airport or not? Really?
Makes me proud to be an American.
 
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