NATIONWIDE SATELLITE LOG BOOKS

GR8DNLVR · Sep 9, 2006

I have to agree with "most" of "us" on this subject. The last thing I need is "big brother" as my new co-driver. If he finds the need to be in my truck, he better be ready to share the driving and seeings I own the truck, he better be ready to do the overnights.

Again, I have to agree that you sound like a disgruntled, and bitter driver. As soon as you have a couple years of seat time in, with the current HOS, let us know how you feel about your decision to have "big brother" as YOUR co-driver.

Say NO to cheap freight!!!! and after reading THIS thread.......Say NO to "big brother" as your co-driver!!!!!!!!! Make the penalty for not running legal HURT!!!!!

chuckwagon · Sep 9, 2006

If we want to just make the penalties for running illegal - then what should it be?

Seriously - we have to admit what is being done is not enough.

First infraction - 30 day suspension

Second infraction - 1 year suspension

Third - should it be a lifetime ban?

Come on - nationwide satellite log books is a great move. The big complaint is our money line! Should that be our only concern?

And to the fool who ask about my other business and if I tried to push legislative change in it as well, the answer is yes. And I must say I am proud of the state changes we made!

So just because I am a newbie and just because I may not have the seat time alot of you may have - I still have a voice and changes can begin with us newbies as well.

Maybe we are just open minded - cause you vets seem to have no concern on what is wrong in the industry when a fellow driver violates the law.

ATeam · Sep 9, 2006

The problem is not the inadequate state of the laws, it is the will to obey them. The driver in question was arrested under laws already on the books. The extra hours driving would have been just as illegal with a national satellite log book system as it would have been with a paper log book. The fault is with the driver and perhaps his carrier. Not with the laws. It may also lie with the law-enforcement culture consisting of law makers and officers who see to it that log books are only inspected sporadically and violation penalties are so easy to bear that they can be relegated to a cost of doing business.

It is almost guaranteed that if a national electronic log book system is developed, an underground market will quickly rise in devices that can circumvent the legal technology. Technology is not the answer. More funding for enforcement of existing laws is.

>So just because I am a newbie and just because I may not
>have the seat time alot of you may have - I still have a
>voice and changes can begin with us newbies as well.

That is a point well made and well taken. The amount of seat time has no bearing on one's right to form and share one's views, or on the validity of those views. If it did, all experienced drivers would believe the same thing.

A person who argues that one's view trumps another's because he or she has more experience in the field is advancing, perhaps unknowlingly, a fallacious ad hominum arguement...attacking the man instead of the idea.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem for more about ad hominum arguements.

Chuckwagon's point that changes can begin with newbies is important. Indeed, in many fields of endeavor, it is the newbies who are the agents of change and the veterans who are the defenders of the status quo.

I'm no fan of the satellite log book idea and do not agree that it would have prevented the accident in question. But I admire this newbie's :censoredsign:

. The man has stones.

LDB · Sep 9, 2006

chuckwagon, did you notice I said the penalties must be so severe nobody will risk violating the overabundance of existing regulations? We don't need more regulations. The thousands in existence are more than sufficient. We need penalties that make the risk of violation too extreme.

Violating HOS less than 10% over allowed limits and not covered by the safe haven exception with no injuries to other individuals or their property something like:

1st offense put out of service 34 hours
2nd offense put out of service 7 days
3rd offense put out of service 30 days
4th offense one year suspension
5th offense lifetime suspension

Violating HOS more than 10% over allowed limits and not covered by the safe haven exception with no injuries to other individuals or their property something like:

1st offense put out of service 30 days
2nd offense one year suspension
3rd offense lifetime suspension

Violation over 10% and not covered by the safe haven exception with property damage:
1st offense one year suspension
2nd offense lifetime suspension

Violation over 10% and not covered by the safe haven exception with injury to others:
1st offense lifetime suspension and criminal charges

Violation over 10% and not covered by the safe haven exception resulting in death:
capital criminal charges

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5507, 5508, 5509
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

pelicn · Sep 9, 2006

Coming from the OTR world, don't be fooled by Werner's "paperless" logs. They can also be "creatively" used.
There is no need for additional laws, just the enforcement of the existing ones. How many scalehouses do you pass daily that are closed?

Tennesseahawk · Sep 9, 2006

Leo, I'm glad you and Ateam aren't writing the laws. Capital offense? You'd have a trucker put to death for killing someone if he were over hours? I think all three of you are full of bull on this issue. Either you don't want big brother, or you want stiffer penalties. What other industry does the government control income? Nothin that I'm aware of. Think about that...

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas

LDB · Sep 9, 2006

If a driver has intentionally gone more than 10% over his legal hours and as a result murders innocent people I'd treat him the same as any other murderer. Harsh penalties for severe violations. I know it will never happen because too many people are unwilling to require severe enough penalties. That guy in question so far exceeded the legal hours that he is totally a criminal and murderer and should be charged and punished accordingly.

The government is regulating allowable hours not income. That is because too many drivers would push the limits and then exceed them chasing the dollars and many more people would be killed than are killed now. I realize an unavoidable parallel to hours regulations is a limitation on income. That is in no way the intent of regulation of hours.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5507, 5508, 5509
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

geo · Sep 9, 2006

i'm in sprinter don't log but still use the 11 hour's of driving and 3 on duty not drive, as i won't drive when tired

as in log book's when i did do it had a hard time keeping one log couldn't think of keep 2 or more up to date

in maryland , they look at log book's hard and a couple of dispatcher have gone to jail for 3 to 5 year's and one pres of a company got 5 to 10 for making drivers drive over hours
as every one else has said run leg and stay leg and keep on trucking

Tennesseahawk · Sep 9, 2006

Ateam... I agree. Experience is nothing compared to the naivity of someone new that wants to change something they know nothing about. You and Chuckwagon would make good congressmen. They like to tell experts how things work too.

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas

ATeam · Sep 9, 2006

What other industry
>does the government control income? Nothin that I'm aware
>of. Think about that...

Hawk, I have to ask. If you are troubled that your income is being controlled by the government and concerned about plummeting freight rates(as you have talked about in other posts), and distrustful of dispatchers (as you have also indicated), what keeps you in the transportation business? Surely, if things are as bleak as you say, there are better places and ways to earn a living. Why are you still doing what you are doing?

Tennesseahawk · Sep 9, 2006

At the risk of hating myself, I'm changing my sarcastic answer. LOL

I'm doing what I'm doing because I enjoy what I'm doing. I see the things that are happening (and others know this also), because I haven't partaken in only one company's kool-aid. I've been around the block, and I was there when the original HOS were what we went by. I've been there when rates were higher and we didn't NEED a surcharge. And, I've caught numerous dispatchers in bald-faced lies from multiple companies. Don't tell me experience is overrated... especially someone who's as wet behind the ears as you! You have a lot to learn, Phil. But if you think you know it all, run for Congress. They're full of wise men.

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas

RichM · Sep 9, 2006

I am curious as too what happens with the paperless log system if you just want to move a few miles. Like if you spent the night in the Southern Detroit area and in the AM you wanted to go north,say up to Mt Clemens. This is about a 20 minute trip. I would not log that stretch on a paper log as then my 14 hour clock starts ticking. Now if you have the paperless log does it kick in when you start moving and starts your clock or can you delay it for a while.

Tennesseahawk · Sep 9, 2006

Leo... you SCARE me!!!

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas

LDB · Sep 10, 2006

The truth can be a scary thing.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5507, 5508, 5509
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

Tennesseahawk · Sep 10, 2006

Truth? Sounded like an opinion, Leo. That's as extreme as something Hillary would say. Just because it's on the opposite side of the spectrum doesn't mean it's not as dangerous.

Just curious, Leo. Do you think elderly "murderers" should get the same treatment when they know they shouldn't be driving anymore? Is there a difference?

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas

Night_Runner36 · Sep 10, 2006

as for paper less logs ......I like being able to have a hard copy for My own records I was toying with the ideal of down loading that program to have My log book on My lap top but then I desided nope just in case it got stolen out of the truck then were I be dead in the water .....I vote stay with what has been working good ole fasion honest log books and drivers and the ones that break the law well toss em in the big house and let them play with bubba...if they killed someone let them fry ...as for Werner I'm not sure if this is truth or lie but I was told by one of thier drivers that thier trucks will shut off and stop running after so many hours of running so after the 11 hrs in service the truck shuts down ....it may be a lie as I havent asked any of the other werner drivers this .....as for running only the 11 hours come on I know that not every driver stays to that I'm sure there are some that run over it alot ....as all night long I hear the drivers asking about the coops if they are running within the law why worry about the coops .....true there will always be them few times when one has to run over the hours to get to a safe stopping place ...lets just hope that they do stop and park and get the rest they need I myself will tell My dispatcher that Iam over hours or if I take the load I only have this much time to drive then I'm shuting down to sleep and have them do the math and make the choice to make the drop time or pickup time fit I could not live with Myself if I hurt or Killed some body......stay safe and stay happy

ATeam · Sep 10, 2006

>At the risk of hating myself, I'm changing my sarcastic
>answer. LOL
>
>I'm doing what I'm doing because I enjoy what I'm doing. I
>see the things that are happening (and others know this
>also), because I haven't partaken in only one company's
>kool-aid. I've been around the block, and I was there when
>the original HOS were what we went by. I've been there when
>rates were higher and we didn't NEED a surcharge. And, I've
>caught numerous dispatchers in bald-faced lies from multiple
>companies. Don't tell me experience is overrated...
>especially someone who's as wet behind the ears as you! You
>have a lot to learn, Phil. But if you think you know it all,
>run for Congress. They're full of wise men.

There was nothing sarcastic in my question, so I'm glad you withheld a sarcastic response. I'm simply trying to understand, and the answer you gave only makes me more curious. You have little but bad to say about what happens to you in your life and work as an expediter, yet you claim to enjoy what you are doing. I don't understand the connection. Even if I had a decade of experience, I'd be asking the same question. It is not about the industry. It is about your thought process. Why would someone as down on expediting as you are stay with it?

chuckwagon · Sep 10, 2006

I believe there have been many good points made heree, both for and against a nationwide satellite log book.
Either way, I do feel we must do something to increase the burden of responsibilty on the driver AND the companies.
The MAIN and sometimes only excuse I hear from some is that they do not want the feds or anyone who has never drove a truck tell them what they can do, or, it would be a financial burden on the driver and the company.
Explicit short-term financial burdens on the industry may be counter-balanced by long-term improvements in safety.
Improvements in safety performance can lead to lower insurance rates, reduced cargo damage, and better service reliability.
Regulatory measures that effectively remedy market failures ultimately improve social welfare.
I will push for this change in the form of a nationwide satellite log book and or a major change in penalties, fines, and placing someone out of service for longer periods, license suspensions, etc.!
Who is with me on this!

greg334 · Sep 10, 2006

ChuckWagon
I would be with you if we can first get more realistic lawmakers to push the DOT in using the studies by the Military on sleep deprivation to determine the HOS. I read some of the studies the DOT used and don't agree with the findings and don't agree not using 60 years of studies that have been used in the past. I also feel that we should be able to address this but with some of the court cases by the OOIDA having to deal with the ATA instead of the court (correct me if I am wrong about this), we don't have control over policy making and must deal with a third party that don't represent the people or has any oversight from Congress.

Phil, you asked "Why would someone as down on expediting as you are stay with it?". Can't speak for T-Hawk but I can tell you that I absolutely loved my work at my last job, but I equally hated dealing with the people and the c**p that they used as road blocks. I have a 9/11 story I will be posting that will explain the road blocks if I can get it in today. Well to answer your question from my point of view, a person can be so cynical and pessimistic about what surrounds the work but still enjoy their work itself.

Tennesseahawk · Sep 10, 2006

Most of the negativity I portray here is to counter the rose-colored view some claim the industry is all about. It's also sharing experiences that others should be aware of. I post both the good and the bad, if you've read both. But my EXPERIENCES, along with others, can give newbies realistic things to expect; so they don't come back and whine "I wasn't told that." I'm not all about the hype of expediting, I'm about the face value. And I say it like I see it.

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas