N. Korea attacks

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
so an outside party will determine who shall be free and independent and who is not? gotta love the irony
Want even more irony ? Try this one on for size:

"In November 1943, Franklin Roosevelt, Winston Churchill and Chiang Kai-shek met at the Cairo Conference to discuss what should happen to Japan's colonies, and agreed that Japan should lose all the territories it had conquered by force.

In the declaration after this conference, Korea was mentioned for the first time. The three powers declared that "mindful of the enslavement of the people of Korea [we] are determined that in due course Korea shall become free and independent.”

For Korean nationalists who wanted immediate independence, the phrase "in due course" was cause for dismay. Roosevelt may have proposed to Soviet leader Joseph Stalin that three or four years elapse before full Korean independence; Stalin demurred, saying that a shorter period of time would be desirable."


There's probably little doubt that Stalin's motives for doing so were not altruistic, as the much of population was leaning to the left and probably would have embraced some form of socialism or communism, had they been left on their own.

Nevertheless, the apparent lesson of the above to the Korean people with regard to the United States was:

"You are entitled to your freedom - provided that you choose a political system that is acceptable to us ....."

Our meddling caused a great deal of resentment on the part of the Koreans apparently - which should come as no big surprise, since that's generally what our meddling in other countries affairs does ..... cause resentment .... :rolleyes:
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I am thinking to a parody...

The world..Like the US was a British colony...

the world is starting to realize what a controlling, dominating force the US is and the rebellion for "freedom" from US repression (ie: foreign and monetary policies)is starting....:confused:
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Rlent,
Your explanation can be also in affect explain our role in Vietnam pre-vietnam war. We allowed the French, who's government surrendered and was non-existent until 1946, to be treated as an equal. At the end of the war we handed back Vietnam because of the French need to have their preexisting colonies back.
 

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
wars are like kudzu, when they start , they spread out of control, can we say WW2 with Japan and Germany, there u go. Wars make good nations do nasty things just to stop the war, no one really whens, its just a bad situation for all, but I still support America.:D
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Gosh RLENT, I don't know where to start. It will take me a considerable amount of time to correct everything that you have wrong. Heck I don't know if a long weekend is long enough, but I'll try.;)
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Gosh RLENT, I don't know where to start.
JJ,

I've always found that while starting somewhere in the middle, or even at the end, can be a very good device as far as storytelling goes, the beginning is always best if one's purpose is cause others to understand ..... ;)

It will take me a considerable amount of time to correct everything that you have wrong. Heck I don't know if a long weekend is long enough, but I'll try.;)
By all means, have at it ... I have no idea specifically where you're going, but I have in the past respected your views as I have found them to be reasonable and pretty sane.

BTW, I found your observations, as one who served, about the MOH recipients in the other thread very interesting (from the standpoint of what the medal was being awarded for)
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Rlent,Your explanation can be also in affect explain our role in Vietnam pre-vietnam war.
Yup, pretty much.

We allowed the French, who's government surrendered and was non-existent until 1946, to be treated as an equal. At the end of the war we handed back Vietnam because of the French need to have their preexisting colonies back.
Not only that, but again, as in the case with Korea, we refused to abide by the Geneva Accords (1954), struck between France and the Viet Minh (which the US had actually funded at one point), which promised a general election (to held by July 1956) to determine the government for a unified Vietnam - simply because we were afraid that Ho Chi Mihn, being popular from his military career in the war, would win the election.

While it's certainly true that Ho was no angel and a bad guy, the fact remains: We denied an entire people their right to self-determination, by refusing to abide by the Geneva Accords.

Coming forward in time about 20 years, the United States facilitated the subversion of the right of the citizens of a sovereign nation to self-determination with respect to Chile, by using the CIA to subvert the Chilean military, which resulted in the assassination of General René Schneider (commander in chief of the Chilean Army and a strict constitutionalist) which allowed General Roberto Viaux to attempt to take power (failed)

Ultimately, other military officers, led by General Augusto Pinochet, were later involved in a successful coup against Salvador Allende - the first democratically elected Marxist to become president of a country in the Americas, ushering in an era of assassinations, torture, and human rights violations.

Although Henry Kissinger claims that "we didn't do it", he essentially admitted that we did everything short of actually "doing it" to make it happen.

I personally consider Kissinger a criminal of the worst possible stripe, and it really wouldn't surprise me at all if he were lying thru his teeth.

And considering that Richard Helms (another crim) was at the wheel of the CIA at the time (of the first coup attempt in '70), it also wouldn't be really surprising if there is very little documentary evidence remaining to verify what our involvement actually was, considering Helms propensity to destroy documents to hide the crimes.

In 1972, Helms ordered the destruction of most records from the huge MKULTRA project, over 150 CIA-funded research projects designed to explore any possibilities of mind control.

Helms was the only CIA Director to be convicted of lying to the United States Congress regarding CIA undercover activities - specifically about the CIA's involvement with the Allende affair.

While I am certainly no fan of Marxism or Communism, I am a real big fan of a people's right to self-determination, to elect their own leaders, and to form their own political systems.

While there are additional, similar instances where the government of the United States has blood on it's hands, I'll stop here and offer my own take on what I am thankful for this Thanksgiving:

I am thankful that the peoples of the world - who number almost 7 Billion at this point - specifically those who have been unlucky enough to be on the receiving end of some of our "help", have not seen fit to unite against us and cause our downfall as a nation.

I am thankful that the ability to forgive is inherent within human nature, and that people are capable of differentiating that actions undertaken by a small number of folks - even if in the name of the many - may not be sanctioned, or even known about by the many.

While being thankful for the above, I also recognize that it is also part of human nature to have a limit to ones patience .... :cool:
 
Last edited:

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Lets see how barry deals with this..probaly he will "bow" to china agaian as he did to the Premier and them after NK sank the SK'n ship....more of the same weakest that the rest of the world now know barry and the usa for....


CHINA TELLS AMERICA: Turn Around The USS George Washington

Gus Lubin
Nov. 26, 2010, 9:36 AM
CHINA TELLS AMERICA: Turn Around The USS George Washington

China has warned against military activity near its coastline ahead of U.S.-Korea naval exercises, according to Reuters.

China's Foreign Ministry said in an online posting that naval exercises risks starting a war: "We oppose any military act by any party conducted in China's exclusive economic zone without approval."

North Korea has also threatened to respond to military gestures with more attacks: "The situation on the Korean peninsula is inching closer to the brink of war due to the reckless plan of those trigger-happy elements to stage again war exercises targeted against the (North)."

If this sounds familiar, it's because the same thing happened after the Cheonan shipwreck. America sent some warships to join in naval exercises, China was outraged, and America yielded and moved the exercises primarily to a more distant location.

China wants peace. The only problem with Pax China is that it includes little protection for South Korea against the next surprise attack from Pyongyang.


Read more: CHINA TELLS AMERICA: Turn Around The USS George Washington
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Well the USS G Washington is in the Yellow Sea and China is quiet...

A more passive approach this time helps Beijing raise its credibility with Washington and trading partner South Korea, and puts North Korea on notice that its actions are wearing China's patience thin.

"The Chinese government is trying to send Pyongyang a signal that if they continue to be so provocative, China will just leave the North Koreans to themselves," said Zhu Feng, director of Peking University's Center for International and Strategic Studies.


Analysis: US carrier visit a dilemma for China - Yahoo! News
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
seems this time the south provoked this one by challenging the north in disputed waters...
North Korea is the only one that disputes it.
the North retaliated by bombarding the small island of Yeonpyeong
So the South fired away from the north in an area that would cause no one any harm, while the North deliberately fired on a inhabited island killing several people. Sounds like a reasonable response from a reasonable leadership.
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Different congress. Funding for operations comes from Congress not the president. He can pitch a b*tch about it but if congress says NO, it is no.

About Vietnam, they were overrun by the north and we pulled out because there wasn't much of a choice. We almost won the war a few times but remember that Korea is a police action by a pseudo entity that isn't a real country and Vietnam was a military action by a few countries - there is a BIG difference.

If it is a need to protect SK, then it should be done with the parties who have more to lose than we do. Japan and most of the pacific rim countries have a great stake in containing the little man, more than we ever do and it is they who should be pitching in with material, men and working to end the madness.

What will we have really lost if NK invades the south?

Cheap Stuff?
Given the two Countries History do you really think SK would welcome them onto their soil. There would be more casualties inflicted on the Japanese by the South Koreans than by the North.
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Communist expansion? Socialist expansion?

How about American style democracy expansion?

Thats what we do... bully and buy other poor countries off ...if they don't think our way, we try and cut them off cash and exports and persuade our allies to do the same....

More and more countries are getting educated and wealthier...more don't need the ole US of A any more or as much....thats one reason why we don't we the perceived power anymore...

Get used to it...you ego maniacs...as the world gets more industrial..our role diminishes....
Which is it You, We, or Our?
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Given the two Countries History do you really think SK would welcome them onto their soil. There would be more casualties inflicted on the Japanese by the South Koreans than by the North.

Actually I don't care what the SKs care or not care about.

It really isn't their place, nor is it the UN's if they want to use US taxpayer's money and US troops to guard something that should have been settled a long time ago.

This is a situation where the UN is in control of the situation, not us and it looks like Balkans where there is a need for them to have long term involvement without any real justification. We should seriously look at correcting it, bringing a large amount of troops home and let others pick up the slack.

We didn't fight this war because of some aggressor attacked us, we already had 4 years of a hard fought war less than 10 years before and the country already shed enough blood for people who didn't appreciate it later on. Even the talk of reunification is an insult to the one's who lost their lives and shows a lack of appreciation.

The other reason for multilateral involvement is simply China is in control of the situation within NK. The Chinese can walk across the border and take the entire country over within hours if not days. If we insist on some balance by involving countries who have a real stake in this by having a real physical presences within SK, then they will settle a lot more than solving these little eruptions by this little leader and have China instead of just telling the leader of NK "don't be a bad little boy or we will slap your hands".
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Re: Some Random Thoughts

RLENT said:
Further, we (as part of the Allies) were directly responsible for creating the conditions which allowed this war to develop - by multi-laterally deciding at the Potsdam Conference to divide the Korean peninsula, without ever bothering to consult the Korean people, and by failing to allow free elections to be held (to allow for the right of self-determination by the Korean people) - in direct violation of an earlier commitment (the Cairo Agreement) where we had publicly declared that "mindful of the enslavement of the people of Korea [we] are determined that in due course Korea shall become free and independent ......"
Well we were directly responsible after Japan had made it necessary to, right a wrong. Whether we should have been involved in that decision could be up for debate but if not us, who then? It is my opinion that the situation would take several years to sort out. We needed to remove all of the Japanese from positions of power (yes I know that we didn't do that) and let the common people have a say in what was about to happen. If they had taken an immediate vote they surely wouldn't have included most of the people in the rural areas who would have certainly been exploited. The comparison I would use is the same as going to San Francisco and asking them to set a government for the entire western half of the United States. It would not have been representative of the people.


Additionally one can look at the actions of the United States in Korea at, and after, the end of WWII and see conduct which is in direct opposition, and entirely contrary to, what we claim to stand for - by attempting to control and subvert the will of the Korean people:
And even worse. But lets remember that when Korea was conquered by Japan, communism had not taken hold anywhere, when they were liberated large parts of China readily embraced communism the Northern part of Korea wanted to go back to the Chinese and I think they embraced the new thing called Communism, while the south wasn't as close to the red menace. We didn't subvert the majority of the Koreans will, just the ones in power, and the powerful.
 
Last edited:

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Greg said:
Actually I don't care what the SKs care or not care about.
So if they decided to nuke the crap out of the North without any further discussion, that would be fine, right?
 

iceroadtrucker

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Well now the knowitalls now Know.

Look when NK first said they were testing Nuc Weapons
Suddenly Japan now want a Nucs and Lets a Nuc Carrier in their ports. Thus enabling The last conventional Carrier to be Decomed.

Hmm

about 2 years ago China and Russia formed started Military Manuvers with each other China Backing Russia and guess what once again the pratice Runs on America were back and yup we went on alert for the first time since the end of the Cold War but that was all shut up and down played.

Now again we Got North Korea and South Korea at it.

China tell United States for the USS George Washington to back off. As china got 3 million troops ready to roll to take care of North & South Korea.
Ok
Russia sits silently in the back ground and watches.

Interesting.
Ya

What we should have done along time ago wasnt.
All because it wasnt politicaly correct.

If all ones going to do is play Politics then your not changing nothing. Smoke and Mirrors make a wonderfull majic show for the make belive but for real life it just dont work.
GO Home.
 
Last edited:
Top