N. Korea attacks

[AMonger]

So with your thinking we should not have gotten into ww1 and ww2 and we might have been the only free country left in the world which I doubt would have lasted long

Completely different. In WWII, we were attacked by the Japanese. In Europe, Hitler had made his expansionist ideas known, and it was clear that we would have been on his list in a few years. Not to mention, the human rights atrocities that were going on. North Korea can never be said to respect human rights, but there's no genocide going on even close to the scale of the holocaust, one in which no civilized human being can stand by without doing something about.

This isn't our battle. Even if NATO or the UN want to collectively do something about this, it's not worth one drop of American blood. Not one drop.

 

[bobwg]

Completely different. In WWII, we were attacked by the Japanese. In Europe, Hitler had made his expansionist ideas known, and it was clear that we would have been on his list in a few years. Not to mention, the human rights atrocities that were going on. North Korea can never be said to respect human rights, but there's no genocide going on even close to the scale of the holocaust, one in which no civilized human being can stand by without doing something about.

This isn't our battle. Even if NATO or the UN want to collectively do something about this, it's not worth one drop of American blood. Not one drop.

We did stand by until Japan attacked us before that most Americans were like you wanted to stick their heads in the dirt and do nothing

 

[AMonger]

We did stand by until Japan attacked us before that most Americans were like you wanted to stick their heads in the dirt and do nothing

Ok, Bob, let's have a little exercise here. Let's say you convince America that we need to go kick some North Korean @$$ over this. The Chinese get involved, or heck, maybe they don't, but regardless, American soldiers and marines start coming home in body bags, or maimed. So you are personally responsible for going to the home of Mr. and Mrs. Richard Anderson of Fort Wayne, Indiana, and telling them that their son, little Timmy, is maimed for life. He's going to lie in a bed for the rest of his life, as what some might call a vegetable. Go ahead, let's hear how you justify to the Andersons why their son will be wearing a diaper for the rest of his life, his life thrown away over nothing. Why was it worth it? Let's hear what you tell the Andersons. Why was a 50+ year old civil war in Asia that important?

 

[bobwg]

Ok, Bob, let's have a little exercise here. Let's say you convince America that we need to go kick some North Korean @$$ over this. The Chinese get involved, or heck, maybe they don't, but regardless, American soldiers and marines start coming home in body bags, or maimed. So you are personally responsible for going to the home of Mr. and Mrs. Richard Anderson of Fort Wayne, Indiana, and telling them that their son, little Timmy, is maimed for life. He's going to lie in a bed for the rest of his life, as what some might call a vegetable. Go ahead, let's hear how you justify to the Andersons why their son will be wearing a diaper for the rest of his life, his life thrown away over nothing. Why was it worth it? Let's hear what you tell the Andersons. Why was a 50+ year old civil war in Asia that important?

So you dont think N Korea would love to kick our azz as you say ? so we should just sit by and wait till he gets nuke weapons if he doesnt have them yet and a way to fire them at us just sit back wait til he becomes a threat ? how many more people died while we sat on our hands in ww2 before we got involved? ok and lets turn this around put youself in those people place that may die or lose freedom because
America wants to hide how would you feel if it was you and your family facing death or loss of freedom and America could help but wont

 

[greg334]

Bob,
During the late 30's when the war was going to start, a number of WW1 vets told the public that we should not get involved with another european war.

What we did instead was supply the europeans with arms and stuff to fight. We didn't sit on our hands but actually was a participant without actually fighting.

In addition we had volunteers, as we did in the first war who went to China, Poland, France and England either before or when war broke out to fight.

The real issue with NK is that it is not all our problem, it is a problem of the rim. The UN is the real problem but nevertheless if Japan does not want to fight, and if China throws its weight around, then we will have lost before the first shot is fired.

 

[AMonger]

So you dont think N Korea would love to kick our azz as you say ? so we should just sit by and wait till he gets nuke weapons if he doesnt have them yet and a way to fire them at us just sit back wait til he becomes a threat ? how many more people died while we sat on our hands in ww2 before we got involved? ok and lets turn this around put youself in those people place that may die or lose freedom because
America wants to hide how would you feel if it was you and your family facing death or loss of freedom and America could help but wont

If those are your criteria, you know how many wars you're going to have to fight? The countries on Earth that wouldn't mind taking us down a peg or three are quite numerous. You going to go to war against all of them? At what point?

The nuclear genie is out of the bottle. If North Korea, a country so backwards they don't have electric lights in just about all of it, can produce a nuke, then anyone can. You going to go to war against every somewhat hostile country on the brink of producing one? When you were a child, did you automatically fight every other child once they gained the ability to walk and clench a fist just so they might not hit you some day?

With nukes getting easier to produce, we're going to have to find a way to live with other nations. That's all there is to it.

 

[milpig]

Ok, Bob, let's have a little exercise here. Let's say you convince America that we need to go kick some North Korean @$$ over this. The Chinese get involved, or heck, maybe they don't, but regardless, American soldiers and marines start coming home in body bags, or maimed. So you are personally responsible for going to the home of Mr. and Mrs. Richard Anderson of Fort Wayne, Indiana, and telling them that their son, little Timmy, is maimed for life. He's going to lie in a bed for the rest of his life, as what some might call a vegetable. Go ahead, let's hear how you justify to the Andersons why their son will be wearing a diaper for the rest of his life, his life thrown away over nothing. Why was it worth it? Let's hear what you tell the Andersons. Why was a 50+ year old civil war in Asia that important?

The Chinese are involved in this little civil war as they were from the beginning. It is about, as it always has been, the expansion of communist states and power throughout Asia. I do believe that we have an interest in stopping that.

As for you concern about little timmy, if he was a smart soldier as most are he has known since he volunteered that there are several countries in wich he may have to fight Korea being one of them. This is a possibility that almost every soldier understands and accepts.

 

[greg334]

As for you concern about little timmy, if he was a smart soldier as most are he has known since he volunteered that there are several countries in wich he may have to fight Korea being one of them. This is a possibility that almost every soldier understands and accepts.

This brings up the point ... why?

He is not defending OUR country as he takes his oath to do so I don't see what would give him the impression that he will be fighting several countries, when we do not have to be there.

Maybe I am starting to look at this a bit differently, knowing first hand what the UN does when they are involved with anything. I don't want my military to be part of that mess, it is out of the control of the people who I elect and are charged with defending this country and this Constitution, not to fight for a pseudo entity that is called the UN.

Korea is no different than any other country we occupy, BUT in this case there are enough countries who have a direct stake in it to maintain a force on the DMZ line that relieve our soldiers to do something like close the Mexican border down because of the bigger direct threat with the Mexican civil war ramping up.

 

[wimpy007]

As a old Korean vet, I would like to say, I hope we don't get involved again, it was a UN operations, and any UN operation gets SNAFU right from the start. The
Chinese can and would put more boots on the ground right from the start, with more in reserve.

 

[milpig]

This brings up the point ... why?

He is not defending OUR country as he takes his oath to do so I don't see what would give him the impression that he will be fighting several countries, when we do not have to be there.

Maybe I am starting to look at this a bit differently, knowing first hand what the UN does when they are involved with anything. I don't want my military to be part of that mess, it is out of the control of the people who I elect and are charged with defending this country and this Constitution, not to fight for a pseudo entity that is called the UN.

Korea is no different than any other country we occupy, BUT in this case there are enough countries who have a direct stake in it to maintain a force on the DMZ line that relieve our soldiers to do something like close the Mexican border down because of the bigger direct threat with the Mexican civil war ramping up.

I do agree with your point here, but.......

We are involved in this as we have been for a very long time. (I believe that we still have a major stake in this also.) There is no changing that now. This is something that should have been crushed and over with. However, as history has seemed to be teaching us for a few years now. You can't just sign a ceasefire or treaty and put your head in the sand. All that does is pass the problem on to the next generation of soldiers.

So while I do agree that there are many problems at home that require attention, I think that this is one of those that we just put on hold thereby giving N Korea the choice of when to take it off hold.

 

[greg334]

China claims they have 310 million of the population they can tap for military operations, with a force of 1.3 million in active duty.

It may be a case where they could actually walk a million into the DMZ to clear a path and invade SK.

 

[bobwg]

Bob,
During the late 30's when the war was going to start, a number of WW1 vets told the public that we should not get involved with another european war.

What we did instead was supply the europeans with arms and stuff to fight. We didn't sit on our hands but actually was a participant without actually fighting.

In addition we had volunteers, as we did in the first war who went to China, Poland, France and England either before or when war broke out to fight.

The real issue with NK is that it is not all our problem, it is a problem of the rim. The UN is the real problem but nevertheless if Japan does not want to fight, and if China throws its weight around, then we will have lost before the first shot is fired.

Yes we did have some volunteers go and sent some supplies but if we had moved sooner to put the full force of Americas military in to the war how many lives could have been spared by stoping Germany and Japan sooner????

 

[bobwg]

If those are your criteria, you know how many wars you're going to have to fight? The countries on Earth that wouldn't mind taking us down a peg or three are quite numerous. You going to go to war against all of them? At what point?

The nuclear genie is out of the bottle. If North Korea, a country so backwards they don't have electric lights in just about all of it, can produce a nuke, then anyone can. You going to go to war against every somewhat hostile country on the brink of producing one? When you were a child, did you automatically fight every other child once they gained the ability to walk and clench a fist just so they might not hit you some day?

With nukes getting easier to produce, we're going to have to find a way to live with other nations. That's all there is to it.

the bully in the school yard is not the same as some jerk that wants to kill you and or take away your freedom

 

[bobwg]

China claims they have 310 million of the population they can tap for military operations, with a force of 1.3 million in active duty.

It may be a case where they could actually walk a million into the DMZ to clear a path and invade SK.

Not sure but I thought I heard China s standing army was like 3 milllion or more

 

[greg334]

They have a compulsory system but depend on volunteers. They claim there are 321 million able bodied males that they can place in action if need be. This is not counting the female part of the population which there are another 298 million considered able to fight.

Their army is less than 2.2 million, reserves are are at 1.2 million giving 3.4 million, they have by far the largest standing army in the world.

The thing seems to be that they keep a tight control on numbers but have the same mentality as does other Asian countries where everyone fights.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

this fight for freedom is hypocrisy at best...we let Cuba just off our shores....we have China our bestest buddies.
...why not pick on the Chinese? cuz we'd get our azzes whopped..Freedom gets too easily thrown around...and means many different things....

 

[greg334]

So does that disgusting word Democracy.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Communist expansion? Socialist expansion?

How about American style democracy expansion?

Thats what we do... bully and buy other poor countries off ...if they don't think our way, we try and cut them off cash and exports and persuade our allies to do the same....

More and more countries are getting educated and wealthier...more don't need the ole US of A any more or as much....thats one reason why we don't we the perceived power anymore...

Get used to it...you ego maniacs...as the world gets more industrial..our role diminishes....

 

[RLENT]

Some Random Thoughts

I say pull our troops out and let the UN fill the gap. We never declared war on North Korea, and never directly negotiated a cease fire with them as the United States. This was a military action by the UN not the United States which should have not taken place to begin with and seems that if it is a real war, congress should have declared it as such.

Well said, for the reasons stated: There was no declaration of war (our country was never attacked)

Further, we (as part of the Allies) were directly responsible for creating the conditions which allowed this war to develop - by multi-laterally deciding at the Potsdam Conference to divide the Korean peninsula, without ever bothering to consult the Korean people, and by failing to allow free elections to be held (to allow for the right of self-determination by the Korean people) - in direct violation of an earlier commitment (the Cairo Agreement) where we had publicly declared that "mindful of the enslavement of the people of Korea [we] are determined that in due course Korea shall become free and independent ......"

Additionally one can look at the actions of the United States in Korea at, and after, the end of WWII and see conduct which is in direct opposition, and entirely contrary to, what we claim to stand for - by attempting to control and subvert the will of the Korean people:

Division of Korea

 

[OntarioVanMan]

so an outside party will determine who shall be free and independent and who is not? gotta love the irony