My Views on China

ACE

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
I was going to respond to the forum that was speaking on China but it was locked.

I have been to China and like the other posters have said the people are very friendly and eager to know about the U.S.,and what we think.
The people work very hard because life is tough and in the rural area's it is extremely tough. They strive to better their condition and make life more rewarding and easier for future generations.
I visted a primary school while there in a rural village. They teach english, we would read from their text book to them and they would read back to us from their text book. The books are very slanted toward the communist thinking.

Yes, construction is booming over there but they have a third world mentality when it comes to sanitation. This will be more of a problem as industry grows.

My feelings on China being a threat to the U.S. economically and as a military power are as follows.

China is building many new commercial buildings that look good from the outside but alot of them are using manufacturing techiniques from the 30's or earlier. The infrastructure will not support a economy like ours.

The military is large but when in modern history {1949 - present} have the Chinese won a major conflict or defeated an aggressor. They are poorly trained and poorly lead. The people are not of an aggresive nature.

I believe their government will fail by 2030. No totalitarian regime can survive when people start to demand a better way of life. Name one succesful communist country or dictatorship. The leaders are afraid of educated people because they start to ask questions and challenge authority, this puts the government in a catch 22 because they need educated people to accomplish the goals of being an economical force. They will either execute or put them in prison or they will flee the country. We have seen this before Germany in the 40's, Soviet Union 60's & 70's.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I have not been to China. I have been to Russia. When not afraid that 'big brother' is watching, the people are very warm and friendly and giving. They will find something to gift you even when they have nothing. It isn't the people in general who are a problem. It is the party and the government who are the problem. They do what's best for the agenda and not the people. Pretty much like here but with a different slant.

Leo Bricker, owner trucks 3034, 4958
OOIDA 677319
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Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
 

X1_SRH

Expert Expediter
We used to have some that we kept in a cabinet, but never got to eat off of it. It never made sense to me. Today I don't have any dishes around that I won't use. It just seems like a big waste if you ask me.

Oops... sorry, wrong China.
 

tallcal101

Veteran Expediter
Hi Ace,
Your comments are very astute.I believe there is a great deal of emotion about China these days.Many are hoping,as I said earlier,that China will just go away.Implode,go broke,a revolution etc.
Unfortunantly,Communism,socialism and most of the other isms'are gone.
The have been repalced with Capitolism.With 1.5 billion consumers,you better believe American corporations are very heavely investd in China.And,yes,that means the retirement accounts of most of us are also,like it not,invested in China.Not sure when you were last there,but I go back and forth on a regular basis.
My wife's family is from a small Province in the south.Not the big City.Her City,Nanning,(not Nanjing)has gone through a complete remodel in the last 5 years.New sewer system,all new roads,new schools and new shopping malls.Lots of shopping malls.
As well,there is a new development out side town,on the lake,called Long Beach Homes.It was developed by a combined US and Hong Kong developer.The homes and streets and golf course's(3)look just like any upper middle calss suburbs in the US.
4000 sq ft homes sell for $175,000.00 US. The neighborhoods have paved streets,,side walks etc.This is not the big City,but a rural farming province.Bejing and Shaighi are so western I hate going to them.Smog and traffic just like LA,NY or Chicago(only worse)
Regarding looking over your shoulder,I can share my experience of teaching for 6 months at the local University.
After class,my studends and I would go for beers.We would dicuss,openly,every topic we chose to talk about.Every topic.Were we being watched,I don' t know.It was in public,it was loud,and very stimulating.
China promotes education (more PHD's per capita then any other country in the World)and recognizes early on the smart kids and fast tracks them
My only premise here is what if they don't implode?I agree that the workers are getting screwed,and that they better become more inclusive of everyone,or they will implode.To many have and have nots.But this country is 5000 years old,and is quickly reaching the the point where they may become true heavyweights,and I think we need to be aware of this, and not be in denial
Remember our parents used tell us"eat you dinner,there are children starving in China".Check the stat's on how many American children go to sleep each night hungry,it's frightning.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Yep I got to say it again; Communism is not dead in China. The country has yet to claim it is being reformed, free up its press or even hint at internal changes. There is a lot more to capitalism than building subdivisions and such – there needs to be a solid infrastructure and a change in government doctrine first. The countries doctrine will not change, it is too entrenched in their culture and their leadership will not allow it to change. I have yet to meet a communist (a true hard core) that would waiver from their beliefs, even after they have become “capitalistâ€.

Don’t be fooled, this stuff has happened before; the Soviets did it in the early 30’s, let loose a bunch of things, built a lot of buildings and Soviet housing that put our housing to shame (even their subway is still something to see), allowed some freedoms to own businesses and even had a little free speech going on but that all ended with the start of the purges – something I see could happen in China any time.
 

tallcal101

Veteran Expediter
Please explain to me why Russia is no longer labled a Communist country.
In fact,it's because the Wesr decided when Putain opened up the markets and that old gunslinger Rony Raygun took credet for bringing down the wall,we just decided,OK,Russia is now a democracy.Labels in of themselves stand for nothing,not one single thing.
Why would you imagine that if Rusiia is a democray,companies such as Intel,IBM Apple.Sun etc want nothing to do woth setting up any kind of operation in the old Rusky?(Oh yes,they will sell equipment on a COD basis,no crdit)..It's the same kind of American propoganda you swallow and process so quickley.America the great has defeated the big Commie bear and now they see things our way.It's a crok Greg.
It is the most dangerous,gangster ridden police state in the World.But W loves to have his photos op's with Putan,and always comes away looking like a fool,always.Gee,those poor Russian,struggling with Democracy,oh well they will get it right soon.
No Greg,you sound like my Father with the Commie red mennace stuff.
I just finished the Biography of J. Edgar Hoover,now there was one paranoid fellow(not to mention cross dresser and avowed gay basher who never had a girl friend).But Commie hater,friend of Joe McCarthy he was.Very intersting time in our histroy.
I have stated a number of times in this converstion that China has real and dangerous human rights issues,and workers will revolt if they are not included in the economic boom they are watching going on around them.No question about it.
Now here's one for you Greg.
The American auto industry is on it's last legs.Twenty thousand lay offs,20 plant closing,retired employee's losing their benefits(need I go on)?Blame is spreading like the chicken flu (another headline we over react too)time will tell,I think not.
The Chinese will introduce their 'Commie Mobiles"next year to the American market.Remember Greg,Free Markets determine government labels,according to W.
I predict these cars and suv's will sell lim,e hotcakes.Why?Low prices and much beeter craftsmanship that either us or the Japaness can put out.So when you see all these Commie Mobiles out on the highways,you can put a bigh sign on your truck saying 'Don't buy Chinese Commie Mobiles".
I'll look for your truck.
 

ACE

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
The Yugo came from a communist country and was cheap but it did not do well for a number of reasons.

Russia is not a communist country now and they have had a number of leaders elected. They have had trouble making the transition but old habits {totalitarian control,and thug mentality} die hard but they will slowly disapear over time and they will become more like western Europe.

China is still a communist country they do not offer freedom of choice in elections or religion. They did choose to let the economy go to a capitalistic style.

Most rural area's still heat with coal and blocks made from coal dust. Some cities still have bath houses because they have no sanitation system in houses. They farm in very primitive ways still.
This is not to say that they will not progress into a major world player some day but they will need to deal with internal problems first that will hinder the advancement of their nation. They may be 5000 years old but they have not accomplished what the U.S. did in 200 years. So all the PHD's and scientists that they produce will not accomplish much with out the main thing needed to grow Freedom.

Do not forget Japan,S.Korea, Vietnam,Russia have an interest in not letting China become to powerfull.

We are the only world power and our leaders and the citizens will not let this slip away. The world knows this and that is why we are both admired and hated.
 

tallcal101

Veteran Expediter
Right now,as a result of a misguieded Irag policy,our military is streched very thin,with National Guard troops doing 2 and 3 tours of duty.Our position as a super power is in dire jeapordy.
I would hope the American people do not allow China to rule the World,either economcily or miltarly.It seems, instead of learning what 200 years have taught us about trying to export our way life,(Viet Naum and now Iraq)we keep repeating the same mistakes.
This President came into office with a $300 Billion surplus.We are now approaching a $300 trillion deficit.I know,everything from the sky falling to the chicken flu is being blamed on 911.
But instead of actually going after the real terrorists,the Saudi's and Bin Laudin in paticular,we wasted our time on a 2 bit looser like Hussin,and now we are really in the muck.(Iraq was not involved in 911)
Meanwhile,we have played into the hands of not just the Muslum extemeists,but the Chinese as well.Have you heard of the Central Bank of Asia,guess who's financing our ever increasing debt?We will be the biggest debter nation to CHINA my freind,not exactly the way to hold on to our power,and dismiss the the Yellow plague.
Are you telling me that coal is not used in this nation?One thing we have in common with China is absolutly the worst mining saftey programs imaginable.This adminstration has cut programs on mine saftey that were considered critical to saving lives.
I thought the Democrats were the spend spend party, but this guy has cut tax's on the rich and put the spend spend burdon on God knows how many generations of unborn Americans.And what do we have to show for it?
Jack Abrahmhoff,and his world golfing tour,Tom Delay(ex ##### roach killer)and more greed and corruption,using our tax dollars,then at any other time.
So,tell me I should pack my bags and move to China if I hate it here so much.Well,you know what,I'm an American,voiceing my opinion,and the people will soon have another opportunity to voice their opinions at the ballot box.Let the chips fall where they may.With an approval rating hovering around 40%(lowest of any President in 100 years)I have hopes we will get this country back on the right track,and not the butt of jokes in the international community.Our role as the most admired and respected nation on Earth will will be reinstated,and instead of the brilliant minds we invited to come here from China(who are scrambling home for better opportunities)we will invite them back to fill the gap's we have of PHD's.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
In my opinion, those who say "love it or leave it" are misguided at best, ignorant at worst. Those who speak out, get involved, vote, and make an effort to create an even better America are the true patriots.
Trying to export our way of life is hubris of the highest degree - we haven't found an equitable way to fund education, or healthcare, affordable housing is nowhere near keeping up with demand, jobs that pay a "living wage" are disappearing faster than hookers seeing a police car, but our political leaders rarely address these issues.
The statesmen who created this country were brilliant - they put the good of the people above their own selfish interests, but the current plague of politicians are pretty much those who could outspend their competition, and this is what I would like to see changed.
 

ACE

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Dear Tallcall 101,

We use coal for commercial use mainly they use it for major amount of residential heating and cooking.

We did not try to export our way of life to Vietnam. We came in to fight the spread of communism { The dominoe theory}.

In Iraq we are trying to establish a society that allows minorities {women,Kurds,Sunnie} to have rights, and for majorities to be understanding of other beliefs. This would be far more beneficial in the long run {cheaper now} and save us in the future if this idea is succesful.

We had many problems when our country was founded and we fought insurgents they were called Indians. The settlers and generations after them Defeated the british in the war of 1812, Defeated Mexico , Defeated the Spanish in the Spanish American War, Helped Europe to defeat the Germans twice, defeated Japan, save S.Korea from communism. These actions had far more casualties and used a greater amount percentage wise of our resources.

The money that was returned to the tax payers that came from the surplus in the budget was done by congress. The president only suggest monetary policies. Remember if the democrats thought it was so bad they could of fillibustered in the senate.

The American public agreed with Bush and the republicans by giving them a larger majority in the Senate and House in 2002. We reelected him in 2004. Remember the only opinion poll that counts is on election night except for the presidential election it is then electoral.

I never suggested any one to leave the country because their views are not the same as mine. We are able to debate and disagree in a civilized manner. This can not be said about China.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
OK tallcal101, seeing my name was mentioned, I have to add to my comments, sorry everyone.

There are two different issues you brought up, one is china and the other is the US. Well what can I say?

Ok I think you have the right idea, but …

Russia a democracy? Well yea …. sort of, but in their own form as they try to define it. Is it perfect, no – but it is theirs. They took the idea of the federation (I think that someone was a trekie) and used that.

To correct you, it was Mikhail Gorbachev who actually opened up Russia, put an end to the Soviet government and admitted it was the outrageous ideas of Regan (and according to people I know most of the soviets feared Regan, crazy American) that put the fall of the Soviet Union on the fast track. It was Boris Yeltsin who really put in policies for privatization, citizens rights etc.. in Russia. Putin on the other hand has not only mentioned going back to the old ways but also seems to allow and support things like Stalin marches, etc.. What would you have expected form the former head of the KGB? Yes it is a haven for organized crime, but that was because of the fall of the government was too fast causing a vacuum, one day you are a soviet citizen the next you don’t know where you are going to get food.

As for the blue chips investing in Russia, hey they already know it is a losing battle until they start controlling the crime. Ben and Jerry’s have serious issues in Russia, kinda of ironic if you ask me.

Next you think that a revolt would happen in China, think again. Not today with the communications and transportation infrastructure they have. There is no reason that the Chinese solder would not shoot a Chinese to put down a revolt. Human rights, hey what have the improved on?

As for the auto companies, well yes the Chinese are a threat, who wouldn’t be with a $10K auto. Quality, I would not say it is better, just maybe equal – but when have you driven one? No one has yet, or I haven’t read much about them. But there are many factors why their car would be priced so cheaply and it may come back to haunt china.

For the second post, I have to say we are not really stretched thin, with about 140K in Iraq out of 1.4M, 10% is not depleting the armed forces. (I don’t know all the deployment numbers). The funny thing is that the media keeps saying these numbers like there is such a big problem and some in congress who know better create some stats without facts to back them. The ones who I know doing 2 – 3 – 4 tours are ones who want to go back, not forced to. So the media and others want the public to think we are in danger.

Iraq is a completely different war than Vietnam, no comparison. Different enemy, different culture, different goals and different history. We have two administrations involved, not five and we now have enemies within (the press) that want us to lose to prove a point.

I am not to comment on the other stuff, budget surplus or funding the deficit, not worth the time.

As for the mine safety issue – lets see … in the US the worst mining disaster was in 1907 362 dies in one accident, but mind you that was in 1907. So with the safety regulations and inspections we went from the highest fatalities in 1910 (2821) to below 1000 in 1948 to below 100 in 1985 to 22 last year. Ok this year has not been good, but I would take our record anytime, look at the Sunjiawan mine disaster where 200 died in one accident or over 6000 in one year (2004). While these are reported figures, remember that until recently we never heard (or for that matter either did the public at large in China) the accidents that happened in their mines, thank you Mao. So we will never know if the 6000 mark is truly the worst they seen.

The last thing I have to say is this president approval rating c**p, which is a ruse and a stupid talking point for the far left. First the worst in an hundred years, well the approval rating has only been used since 1916, sort of. Of course straw polls have been used since Jackson but that is not the subject at hand. So it is 2016? Well as how well ‘W’ is doing, 40% is not the end of his presidency; by far 40% is not too bad. Let’s see…. Who has the worst rating? Truman 23% 1952, followed by Carter (end of term) 34% 1981 followed by Nixon 36% 1974. LBJ had his low approval rating and so did Eisenhower and FDR. It is funny FDR actually had big problems in 1936 and 37 and his approval rating dumped in unofficial polls taken by Hearst’s papers through Gallup. I could go on, but…. Yea I can give you an example of polls meaning nothing, according to the Gallup poll, who won the 1948 election?

All done, sorry for the long winded comments. To all who have sent me PM’s I will reply to them soon.
 

RichM

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Perhaps I was misled with propaganda but I believe I saw many Iraq citizens proudly waving their inked fingers proving that they voted in elections. Could that have happened before we went there? Also I bet the females in Afganistan really miss the Talliban.
How quickly some of us forget 9/11/01.

Every so often the country needs a kick ##### President who is not afraid of world opinion. For 8 years under the Clinton Administration we sat around and did nothing while ships were attacked,embassies blown up etc. Nothing wrong with getting some respect back and letting these 2 bit countries get the message,"don't mess with us".

There is a lot of evil in this world and when good people do nothing evil triumphs .It is a common saying but it is the truth. Now we can choose to fight this evil in Iraq,Syria,N.Korea or on the streets of Atlanta and Chicago and other cities. The choice is ours.
 

tallcal101

Veteran Expediter
With all due respect,I give up.Uncle.See you at the ballot box.
Your vision is worthy, and hopeful,and based on a pack of lies,but worthy never the less.
I hope ,and pray, your right,and that the 50,000(conservative figure)Iraqi's(mostly civilians) who never asked to die,or be invaded,or live in streets running with sewer,or have a puppet trial for their 2 bit dictator(who we had boxed in)or elect officials who are now being shown as corrupt.Yup,thats the way we take care of business in Texas boys.We land on aircraft carriers in cute little jump suits(since he never wore it much in the Alabama Air National Guard))and declare "Mission Accomplished".Opps,I mean maybe after we kill and mame a few thousand of our guys and 50,000 to 100,000 of thier guys,maybe then I can finish the mission((I'll let you know when when is when,what did I say,oh,you know what I mean,even if I can't quite string the words together to make.......you know what I mean.!?!?
Yes this guy has some cahones all right,as long it's OTHER peoples sons and daughters.Rich kids need not apply for service.Seems W and ##### C had other things to do the last time we went and invaded a souvern countrey to stop the red tide..But this band of Muslum hoodelums seem to be a little tougher then ##### and Donny R seemed to think 3 years ago.I thought it was a "mop up" exercize?Oh well W's from Texas,he kicks ##### and take names "Let's Roll"!!
You may recall the events of Bosnia,which you seem to have selectivly forgotten about,which took place under Clintons watch.
It's very interesting that the majority of the American people never really cared about Monica,as the man left office with better poll numbers then Rony Raygun,or Bush 1.Which means,if things go as they are for W.,he may leave office with less then half of Clintons numbers when he left office.Go frikken figure?
Leave Clinton alone,he has no dog in this fight.There is genuine bi lateral concern about the state of our country.What ever happens,and I hope it turns out rosey,history will record these 8 years,the W years,as perhaps the worst in this proud countrys history.
Three out of five Americans agree today.
Our brave soldiers went when asked,did'nt question,just as generations before them have.WE are all proud of their sacrifice,but many ex military men seem to think it's not the best idea to let civilians take us to war(W,##### C and Donny boy).Since none of them have ever had a command,or know what it's like to see your buddy die,what gave them the know how to put this flawed plan in place?
I know,He's from Texas,and we kick #####.......blah,blah,blah
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I agree with many of the above. 9/11 changed alot of things. Politics aside, it really does come down to whether we address it on foreign soil or right here at home.
Only history will tell if we handled it the right way.
It would be the blind fool that would think we would never be attacked again.


Davekc
owner
21 years
PantherII
EO moderator
 

tallcal101

Veteran Expediter
The Iraqi's had nothing to do with 911.
Osama and his band of merry men were all Suadi's.How are we safer now?
Our policy is creating new terrorsits everyday,just the opposite of what we should be doing.The Iraqi's welcomed us with open arms alright,it's just that their middle fingers were in the full erect position.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I think you read something into my post that wasn't there. I made no mention of Iraq. I was referring to Afghanistan. The only proven connection between the two is the movement of money and terrorist training camps. The connection between Hussein and Bin Laden was based on shabby intelligence as was the presence of WMD.
Are we safer today? Obviously since we have not had another attack since 9/11 and Bin Laden hides from cave to cave. Are there more terrorists? Without a doubt, as we are conducting military operations in their backyard. It does come at a hefty cost in terms of military costs and lives lost. Had we done nothing I think we would pay a far bigger price.




Davekc
owner
21 years
PantherII
EO moderator
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Tallcal101

>The Iraqi's had nothing to do with 911.
>Osama and his band of merry men were all Suadi's.How are we
>safer now?
>Our policy is creating new terrorsits everyday,just the
>opposite of what we should be doing.The Iraqi's welcomed us
>with open arms alright,it's just that their middle fingers
>were in the full erect position.

I don’t think you really understand the mind of these people or their religion. See there is a clear connection that is never mentioned – it is their religion. It is clear that even though the commonality of the religion may seem to be a problem internally (Shi’a killing Sunni killing Shiite), but the truth is that the saying the enemy of my enemy is my friend holds true for hundreds of years and even today.

Fanaticism, fundamentalism and other –isms within the muslin world is not created or agitated by our present policies, but rather have been brewing since the later part of the 19th century. The problem is the same as it was with the Nazis, Communist and many others where control and indoctrination of the children take place. Knowing a few Hitler youth (of course as adults) personally, there is still something about their beliefs that bother me. Knowing former Soviets (true believers in Uncle Joe) there is still something about their beliefs that bother me. When I was in another unnamed war torn country, I found that many of the children I met were believers of the war lord and would fight to the death (and not hesitate to kill me) if so asked. My point is that we really didn’t create them; many were created through very strong religious beliefs and the belief that their leaders are speaking only the truth, protecting their culture, religion and population. They believe without any doubt everyone else outside their world wants to destroy their way of life, their culture and their religion – what ever it takes to prevent it from happening will be use.
 

RichM

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
When you really think about it most of the wars and massacres over the last few centuries have been caused by one religious group trying to extinguish another religious group.Still goes on today.In this country you have major sects trying to generate income to denigrate other sects. In the middle east you either worship my way or I
will kill you .

Somehow I think that if Jesus, Abraham, Mohammed, Budda and others came back to earth they would not be very happy knowing about all of the people killed in their name.
 

tallcal101

Veteran Expediter
Osama is a fanatic,a zealot,with alot of oil money from his family to play with.I do not believe he represents the entire Muslum world.There are many,many American citizens of the Muslum faith,many in each of our communities.
Our country misread Osam's capabilities.Keep in mind,in the Afgahn war agaist Russia,we were promoting Osama,and praising him as a hero and freedom fighter.Just as we had close ties to Saddamat that time.
Osama used his wealth and influence to get over on us.Al Kadah was alive and kicking in Afgahastan for years,and we kinda of turned a blind,eye until 911.Clinton included,Bush 1 included.
Why did'nt we stick to the real war,the Afgahan war?Thats my only point here.I really think we got off track,for purly personal reasons,some kind of pay back war was waged on Iraq that had nothing to do with 911.It's BS to think that by fighting this moronic war against freedom fighters(as they see themselves..Sure,Al Kahda has infiltrated Iraq,but they were never there to began with.It is a false statement put out by this government(worse then the press)that it's better to fight them in Iraq then at home.These are freedom fighters,not US invaders,and we would never see them in the states.There are thousands of Iraqi's fighting this war against their"liberators".
 

RichM

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Liberators????Blowing up Mosques,Funeral processions,Police recruits.

Sure would hate to see those liberators here or in California. My wife has a cousin whose son served in the Marines both if Afghanistan and Iraq. He has told his folks and us that the average individual in those countries were overjoyed to see the US military free them from the oppression and hardships that their so called rulers inflicted.
 
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