Mass shooting in Colorado theater

zorry

Veteran Expediter
The AP reports he had an AR-15 with a high capacity drum type clip.
Why is that weapon needed to be readily available in our society ?
If he bad accouple six-shooters maybe someone could have dropped him as he was reloading.
Not looking to debate guns.
If the freezer goes bad and layout needs 200 ducks for the next Ducks Unlimited Dinner on 30 minutes notice,ok.
Any reasonable need for this weapon ?
 

ChrisGa23

Expert Expediter
The AP reports he had an AR-15 with a high capacity drum type clip.
Why is that weapon needed to be readily available in our society ?
If he bad accouple six-shooters maybe someone could have dropped him as he was reloading.
Not looking to debate guns.
If the freezer goes bad and layout needs 200 ducks for the next Ducks Unlimited Dinner on 30 minutes notice,ok.
Any reasonable need for this weapon ?

A lot of people use them for sport shooting and tournament's. I have heard of people using the ar 15 for hunting. Its a multi purpose weapon
 

zorry

Veteran Expediter
Not to twist the topic too much.
I understand hunting.
I don't consider it a sport.
It'd be a sport if the animals could shoot back.
 

ChrisGa23

Expert Expediter
When I say sport I don't mean hunting I mean like a group of friends heading to the gun range or field or where ever and bring their guns and shoot at targets or what ever.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I mean at the time of writing the "bear arms" section....all they had was ball and musket....soooo I guess only that type would be allowed today.....it would not be unconstitutional to define what gun one could have....as long as you had choices....
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
It is never the gun, it is the shooter. Banning a gun wouldn't accomplish anything.
A nutcase will simply find a way to do what they want.
How does one think a sawed off shot gun came about?
Gun not automatic? No problem.Just go on the internet and find out how to make it one.
In todays world, much too easy whether there is a ban on anything or not.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
It is never the gun, it is the shooter. Banning a gun wouldn't accomplish anything.
A nutcase will simply find a way to do what they want.
How does one think a sawed off shot gun came about?
Gun not automatic? No problem.Just go on the internet and find out how to make it one.
In todays world, much too easy whether there is a ban on anything or not.

I realize that Dave...but an assault weapon....? is for assaulting... it dictates offense not defense to me....LOL
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The AP reports he had an AR-15 with a high capacity drum type clip.
Why is that weapon needed to be readily available in our society ?
If he bad accouple six-shooters maybe someone could have dropped him as he was reloading.
Not looking to debate guns.
If the freezer goes bad and layout needs 200 ducks for the next Ducks Unlimited Dinner on 30 minutes notice,ok.
Any reasonable need for this weapon ?

Maybe they could have "dropped him" right away if a few there were carrying a 45 caliber.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I mean at the time of writing the "bear arms" section....all they had was ball and musket....soooo I guess only that type would be allowed today.....it would not be unconstitutional to define what gun one could have....as long as you had choices....
The problem comes when people try to define "arms" as being "guns". If the Founding Fathers had meant guns, they would have written guns. They didn't. They wrote arms. And "arms" is "instruments or weapons of offense or defense". So what the Constitution says is, you are literally able to keep and bear instruments or weapons of offense of defense. "Arms" can mean guns, or knives, or a baseball bat, anything which can be used for offense or defense.

It was also not lost on the Founding Fathers that the government and the people had the same arms. The "ball and musket" argument, while a common one, is nonetheless a logical fallacy of trying to divert the meaning of the Constitution.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
The problem comes when people try to define "arms" as being "guns". If the Founding Fathers had meant guns, they would have written guns. They didn't. They wrote arms. And "arms" is "instruments or weapons of offense or defense". So what the Constitution says is, you are literally able to keep and bear instruments or weapons of offense of defense. "Arms" can mean guns, or knives, or a baseball bat, anything which can be used for offense or defense.

It was also not lost on the Founding Fathers that the government and the people had the same arms. The "ball and musket" argument, while a common one, is nonetheless a logical fallacy of trying to divert the meaning of the Constitution.

On the other hand they limit the caliber one can own.....like I believe if I remember rightly....50 caliber is max...
I seen a show with a 55 cal. rifle that was converted to a 50 cal...
but they limit the length of a knife blade as well....
 
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zorry

Veteran Expediter
I think hit 70 people. Or hit 50 and the gas injured 20.
Maybe limiting everyone to the ball and powder ain't a bad idea.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Muttly, I wish a few were armed with 45's. Including the shooter.

My point about the people in the theatre having at least a 45 caliber is this. I had heard from gun experts talking on the radio that the shooter had gear from head to toe to stop a bullet. What was needed was somone to have a least fired at him with the stopping power of a 45 caliber gun. While it wouldn't have wounded him, the force would have at least took his breath away,stunned him, maybe knocked him down, especially with repeated shots from close range. He then could have been subdued. It is a moot point unfortunately, since NONE of the people in the packed theatre apparently had any weapon at all.
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Why do so many people get worked up over the name of a weapon? The civilian version of the M-16 isn't much of an assault weapon. It is just a very comfortable rifle to shoot a hundred rounds on a Sunday morning.
 

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
What, when, where, and why are our citizens doing these stupid things in schools(columbine), McDonalds, and so on.. We or whoever we is have really lost our minds. There is no rhyme or reason to the insanity of it all.............................
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I know it's unrealistic, but it might be a move in the right direction if the news organizations chose NOT to publish the names and pictures of these nut cases when they commit these atrocities. In the final analysis they're probably looking to lash out at society for some percieved transgression and at the same time become famous/infamous and internationally recognized. They shouldn't be allowed this kind of notoriety. Seems like if the media can voluntarily withhold the names of minors that are victims of rape, molestation, etc. they could just as easily refuse recognition of crazy mass murderers. But since this is just a pipedream perhaps we could hope the mainstream media might at least depict them as the contemptable vermin they are, but just wait; this creep will probably be made out by some of the media as some kind of misunderstood victim that was bullied by the jocks or rejected by the cute girls in his high school.

One other note about the media - the idiots at ABC (George Stephanopolis and company) couldn't wait to INCORRECTLY broadcast that this guy was a member of the Colorado Tea Party. Turns out he of course was not, so they published a retraction online. In the meantime the middle-aged Tea Party guy with the same first and last name has had to disconnect his phone and go into hiding.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
He may very well be a victim who was bullied by someone in society, or even society at large. If so, that's where we can look internally for ways to prevent that from happening, but the sad fact is that no one can be protected from life, and some people are going to get the short end of the stick now and again. Ailene Wuoronos comes to mind. She was crapped on by life at every opportunity, but it doesn't dismiss what she did. Best we can do is show empathy and sympathy, but it doesn't excuse this shooter's behavior in any way. We're long past trying to find out why in these instances, because they are the irrational acts of irrational minds, and it cannot be rationalized.

As far as limited blade length, caliber, whatever, yes, that's true. No one ever said the Constitution isn't being trounced on all the time. "Shall not be infringed" is plain, direct and unambiguous, yet it gets infringed with every law regarding guns and other arms.

People think that if we didn't allow automatic or semiautomatic weapons with large magazines of ammunition that things like this would not happen. They're wrong in their thinking. If someone wants to do a lot of damage and injure or kill a lot of people, they will figure out a way to do that. They did it before automatic weapons were invented, and they can do it if they are outlawed. Don't kid yourself into thinking otherwise. Do you know how many people were killed in Oklahoma City, without a shot being fired? 168. The Beirut Barracks attack, 299. The 911 attacks, 2998. Not a single person died from gunshot wounds in any of these attacks. In the theater, instead of a couple of smoke bombs and tear gas and gunfire, it could have just as easily been half a dozen homemade hand grenades that killed and inured even more than the gunfire did. He could have parked a truck loaded with diesel fuel and fertilizer out back against the building and taken nearly everybody out, automatic rifle not required.
 
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