log book questions

EasyDoesIt

Active Expediter
Was driving a semi, paper logs, home every weekend and now thinking of straight truck expediting. Say I am empty and on my 34 hour reset. Can I do errands in the truck or run 45 minutes to a zoo or museum then return to where I went out of service? What if the truck has EOBR? Know nothing about EOBR, never used one. Driving the semi I went home for 34 to 48 hours and the truck never moved.
 

zorry

Veteran Expediter
We're allowed 45 minutes,not 45 miles.
I thought you had to have available hours to do the OFD,so I never do it after my 14.
I've screwed up more than one 34 hr restart by exceding that 45 min threshold. The last time I had actually made it into a Pilot and parked but the clink wasn't fast enough switching to off-duty.
 

EasyDoesIt

Active Expediter
In the "old" days when you took an 8 hour break I would just drop the trailer and go where I wanted. Everything was just logged off duty until I went back to work.
 

zorry

Veteran Expediter
Easy,there's no change to what you're doing on a paper log.
Since EOBR's automatically show you driving if the truck is moving they came up with Off-Duty Driving,sometimes called Line 5.
Each carrier is allowed to make up their own rules on this.
EOBR's suck for a solo. They're no problem for a team that has good communication.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
What is that ?
can someone post a link, to the regulation book when the mystic 'line 5' is allowed to be used ?
seams like a recruiting/retention myth .

You already mentioned #26, that is what allows us to bobtail for personal reasons.

Question 26: If a driver is permitted to use a CMV for personal reasons, how must the driving time be recorded?

Guidance: When a driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work, time spent traveling from a driver's home to his/her terminal (normal work reporting location), or from a driver's terminal to his/her home, may be considered off-duty time. Similarly, time spent traveling short distances from a driver's en route lodgings (such as en route terminals or motels) to restaurants in the vicinity of such lodgings may be considered off-duty time. The type of conveyance used from the terminal to the driver's home, from the driver's home to the terminal, or to restaurants in the vicinity of en route lodgings would not alter the situation unless the vehicle is laden. A driver may not operate a laden CMV as a personal conveyance. The driver who uses a motor carrier's CMV for transportation home, and is subsequently called by the employing carrier and is then dispatched from home, would be on-duty from the time the driver leaves home.

Sent from my ADR6400L using EO Forums
 

usafk9

Veteran Expediter
We're allowed 45 minutes,not 45 miles.

You are spot-on. Since I rarely, if ever, move faster than 60 mph, I always look at a mile per minute. You are correct, and I was not.

Glad that's over. I was due for this year.
 

usafk9

Veteran Expediter
Here ya go, Moose & Monty, from http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/fedex-custom-critical/40673-eobr-off-duty-driving-fmsca-feedback-3.html


Re: Eobr - "off duty/driving" fmsca feedback
I received a response to my request for clarification from FMCSA in Washington, DC. I post it here below. Please note the comment specifically as to what constitutes off-duty as in "relieved of responsibility." I found that enlightening and helpful.

Begin:

Thank you for contacting the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) at the U.S. Department of Transportation for information. In your attached letter, dated 10 March, you have provided a very specific scenario in which you are requesting guidance for a series of questions related to FMCSA's Hours of Service (HOS) rules as they apply to the use of a commercial motor vehicle (CMV) for personal reasons when off-duty.

It may be helpful to first establish what constitutes "off-duty" under this rule. To be considered off-duty a driver must have been relieved of all duty and responsibility for the care and custody of the vehicle, its accessories, and any cargo or passengers it may be carrying. Therefore, in the scenarios you presented you were considered off-duty as you had delivered the load and you are the owner operator of the CMV.

When a driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work, time spent traveling from a driver’s home to his/her terminal (normal work reporting location), or from a driver’s terminal to his/her home, may be considered off-duty time. Similarly, time spent traveling short distances from a driver’s lodgings to restaurants in the vicinity of such lodgings may be considered off-duty time. Although there is no specific guidance defining what constitutes "short distances" one should determine this distance as what a typical person may consider it to be. For example, traveling 100 miles to go to dinner would not be considered a short distance by a reasonable person. This specific topic is discussed in section 395.8, question #26, of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations (FMCSRs). You can review all FMCSR by visiting our website at Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration In regards to logging requirements while taking these short trips, there are no special log entries to be entered as it would be a continuation of off-duty. If you accepted a pick-up on Monday morning your on-duty time begins at the time you leave the truck stop to pick up the load. Additional information regarding how to properly record driving statuses on your driver record can be found at 49 CFR 395.8(a)(2)(B).

In response to your last scenario, as you were off from Friday at noon until Sunday morning (34+ hours) you are able to begin a "full 14 hour clock". For more information pertaining to these HOS regulations, the HOURS OF SERVICE TRUCK DRIVER'S GUIDE is available on the Agency's HOS webpage at: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...ide-to-hos.pdf

I hope this information will be of assistance to you.


Christine Hydock
Driver and Carrier Operations Division
Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration Department of Transportation [email protected]

END
 

zorry

Veteran Expediter
Ok Turtle,pay attention. Travelling 100 miles to dinner would not be done by a "reasonable person. "
 

EasyDoesIt

Active Expediter
Well I'm glad I don't have to log on duty not driving while waiting for freight. That would sure limit your income. Never thought much about it because I almost always had a load before I was empty.
 

Monty

Expert Expediter
The original poster asked about returning from El Paso to Dallas ... empty, off duty, a 10 hour run. All the examples presented are about personal convayance in and around your delivery point. Off to dinner, movie, park, etc, etc.

I still say he can NOT return 10 hours from a delivery point to his domicle to Dallas ... OFF DUTY.

Here is a great link to many question and answers concerning rules and regulations.

Ol'Blue, USA - Ask The Law - Q & A's
 

BigRed32771

Expert Expediter
The trainer at our new carrier (during orientation) had an interesting take on this topic. He said that the real question about if you are off-duty is whether what you are doing is furthering the needs of your business. If it is, then you are on-duty; if not, then off-duty.

The OP in this thread posited an empty return from ELP to DAL. Here's where this starts to get sticky. Using the "furthering your business" rule-of-thumb (I also learned from the trainer the origin of that thumb thing, very interesting but dumb as Artie used to say on Laugh-in) since every outbound trip from home implies a return trip back, this trip from ELP to DAL was just the second half of a particular job. BUT... suppose the trip out to ELP had been intended as just a single job and the plan was to lay up at, say the Flying J at Anthony, and wait for another paying load going whereever. Things just got a little grayer. Why are you going home? Just to go home? Log it, because the trip is now furthering your business (it's the return leg of that outbound trip now). Got a call that your cat is stuck on the roof and won't come down? Personal use because the reason for the trip has nothing to do with your business, and you'd have made the trip in a personal vehicle if available. That it leaves you home when done is irrelevant to whether or not it's business or personal use. SO, if you're driving home from a loaded trip and get questioned by DMV or DOT or whoever, if you're on line 5 the answer to why are you headed home better be "the cat's on the roof and won't come down" and not "finished the job and wanted to sleep in my own bed tonight."

By this understanding I guess I could have logged off-duty driving last year when I drove home from Beaumont TX to take my wife to our emergency room when she developed appendicitis, as "taking her to see our doctor" certainly did not further our business. Hehe, it actually cost me a lot as we were out of service for weeks while she recovered from the surgery performed the next morning after my wild ride.

AJ, you'll find this interesting perhaps. Our new carrier has NO LIMIT on off-duty driving time. BigBoss said that Qualcomm tried to talk them out of no limit but his position is there's no way to tell in advance what his drivers might legitimately want to do during their free-time, so no limit. After fighting with FDCC to get even 45 minutes, what a breath of fresh air.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Ok Turtle,pay attention. Travelling 100 miles to dinner would not be done by a "reasonable person. "
I'm not sure why you're bringing me into this since I drive a van and don't log and couldn't care less, but in any case, you clearly have never had my cooking.
 

BigRed32771

Expert Expediter
The other issue involved in "personal use" is "reasonable." This is also sticky and very variable. It is purposely left vague because of the variability of situations but that causes the problem of interpretation. "Reasonable" is in the eye of the beholder, so to speak, and the DOT/DMV/agent-of-your-choice on the spot is the one who gets to make that determination. You can present your case, but ultimately whether or not it gets written up as a violation is subject to that person's interpretation of the rules and your situation.

A friend of mine drives for a company that releases him from duty usually at their ATL terminal. He lives about 4 hours drive time from ATL. The rule says that driving to and from the terminal where you go on and off duty is "personal." But 4 hours? He ran into a DOT officer about 5 minutes shy of the house one day. Guess what? He got a citation for driving beyond 11/14 hours. The officer didn't think that 4 hours was "reasonable." While I can see the officer's point of view, the rule in this case is actually fairly specific in that it places no limit (even "reasonable") on to and from work driving. Friends company backed him up, and at last check the violation has never shown up on DMV record, so maybe it got tossed. I hope so.

The FMCSA answer I got mentioned driving 100 miles to go to dinner as "not reasonable." But what if it is under some circumstance? Let's say you drop a load at a wide spot on the side of the road in the precise middle of nowhere (probably in Nevada, but who knows?). On your way in, the dispatcher called and says, "Hey, good news. There's a load coming out of Widespot the day after tomorrow and it pays super great. Shall I put you on it?" After stubbing your fingers typing "hell, yes" on the q-comm, you look around and realize that your brilliant plan to use the last 3 of your 11 hours to get you to Casinoville for a good meal, a hot shower and more importantly, a 34-hour restart just went up in dust. Oh, well, you think, it's a great job. That's when wife points out that without that 34-hour you won't have enough time on your 70 left to complete the "super-great" you just accepted. And, oh by the way you ate the last HeaterMeal while babysitting a load last weekend and now the cupboard is bare. When the delivery is made you realize that the next pickup is exactly 35 hours away, you can still get that 34 if you just sit still. What do you do?

Answer: it depends. First thing, of course, is go off duty as soon as you hit the parking area on the edge of Widespot. Now, consider your options. You could just sit there for the next 34.5 hours till time to go back to the pickup spot, hoping to scrape enough peanut butter out of that practically empty jar to sustain you, but then you'd have to be sure there was enough liquids available to wash it down. All while listening to the wife express her opinion of you and your "super-great job" and how she was looking forward to that hot shower. Not a good option. Moving on.

Go back to plan A, head for Casinoville and said hot shower and try to muddle through somehow without the 34 restart. You could maybe salvage half of the "super-great" before having to call dispatch and beg off out of hours. You'd look like a fool, of course, and chances of ever getting another "super-great" would go up in smoke, but you'd have something out of it. Better, but still not a good option. Moving on.

Drive to Casinoville anyway, but put it on line 5 (off duty driving). Hmmm. Saves the 34 and thus the load, gets a good meal and a shower, and maybe most importantly, shuts the wife up. Good option! Let's go. But, wait! Is it "reasonable?" It depends. Is there any place closer than Casinoville? Better check before you drive 3 hours off-duty one way. Well, nothing between here and Casinoville shows up on the map or your truck-stop guide. All Rightee, then! We're off. Not so fast, bucko. Grizzled old-timer sitting in the shade of the one bush in the area says there's a little mom-and-pop place about 100 miles in the other direction from Casinoville at Notsowidespot. Good food, well stocked store, and the showers are clean. Now Casinoville isn't reasonable any longer because there was another option. And all of a sudden, a 100 mile drive is reasonable.

Now you could roll the dice, so to speak. Head off to Casinoville logged on line 5 (presuming your company has allowed you enough time on your EOBR to get that far) and hope you don't get challenged by an officer who knows about Notsowidespot. Safest option though is for you to head to Notsowidespot. You can make a case for reasonable if challenged about duty status. If you split the drive between you and wife you might make it even with FDCC's 45 minute limit if you push just a hair (easy enough to do in that area).

Anyway, the point I'm going for here is that "off-duty driving" is a bit tricky but can be a valuable tool for the driver. Just understand what's going on with the rule and be careful.

Stay safe out there, okay?
 

moose

Veteran Expediter
I don't care, if your out of an 11/14/70 & driving a big rig, your an ambulance chasers hot meal.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
AJ, you'll find this interesting perhaps. Our new carrier has NO LIMIT on off-duty driving time. BigBoss said that Qualcomm tried to talk them out of no limit but his position is there's no way to tell in advance what his drivers might legitimately want to do during their free-time, so no limit. After fighting with FDCC to get even 45 minutes, what a breath of fresh air.

Interesting indeed. FDCC limits personal conveyance time to 45 minutes per day per driver. BigRed's carrier does not limit personal conveyance time at all. My carrier (Landstar) prohibits personal conveyance time in any amount.

Three carriers, three different ways of dealing with personal conveyance time.

Note that when carriers make rules, driver convenience is rarely in mind, driver safety is sometimes in mind and carrier liability is always in mind. Such rules are made first and foremost for the carrier's benefit.
 

BigRed32771

Expert Expediter
Interesting indeed. FDCC limits personal conveyance time to 45 minutes per day per driver. BigRed's carrier does not limit personal conveyance time at all. My carrier (Landstar) prohibits personal conveyance time in any amount.

Three carriers, three different ways of dealing with personal conveyance time.

Note that when carriers make rules, driver convenience is rarely in mind, driver safety is sometimes in mind and carrier liability is always in mind. Such rules are made first and foremost for the carrier's benefit.

This, in fact, is why FDCC originally was going to go with NO personal use until drivers beat them up severely over it. Their interpretation was that if you're driving a CMV with a CDL, you have to be on-duty to do so, despite the rules. It was a lawyer thing, but I guess when they realized that denying us the use of our own vehicles might open them up to a legal challenge, they found a compromise they could live with. I've heard that they argued over 30 minutes or an hour for a long time till someone just said, split the difference and move on.
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
This, in fact, is why FDCC originally was going to go with NO personal use until drivers beat them up severely over it. Their interpretation was that if you're driving a CMV with a CDL, you have to be on-duty to do so, despite the rules. It was a lawyer thing, but I guess when they realized that denying us the use of our own vehicles might open them up to a legal challenge, they found a compromise they could live with. I've heard that they argued over 30 minutes or an hour for a long time till someone just said, split the difference and move on.

And this is something the Fed has been in court over many many many times over the years over......

Are you a "Contractor" when you sign on with the Fed (doesn't matter which division - Ground / Home Delivery / CC / Etc).....or are you an "Employee" providing your own equipment?? Every year a NEW challenge comes their way in regards to how the Fed treats their "Contractors" as "Employees".
 
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