Lech Walesa's Warning for America

[jaminjim]

My wife said: you cant talk to bosses like that in the real world,

The real world is what most are talking about.

Now i just try and keep my mouth shut.

Thats not really necessary unless you have self control issues.

If there was no union all it would take is one foreman to not like you and your gone

Well that's not quite correct unless you work for a poorly managed company. But as said by Layoutshooter, there is a heck of a lot more dead wood in the union environment then there ever was or will be in a nonunion shop.

 

[greg334]

First off, it was an american thing as to the ford and chrysler cars being in a lot, {now supporting buying american products is a bad thing?}

Well that would be true but ...

... it wasn't an American thing, not with Volvos and Saabs, Landrovers and Jaguars sitting in the same lot as the Fords, GMs. Just because the company owns the product, where is the pride in owning a car made in a foreign country when everyone keeps saying "Buy America" - kind of hypocritical isn't it?

The entire thing is a bunch of BS when they, the union worker thinks the CAW worker is the same as a UAW worker but tries so hard to **** on the Mexican worker who in many cases is the same foreign union worker as any UAW worker.

AND when do you draw the line with this American thing?

I mean my caravan is not an American made product - period.

My Dodge ram is not an American made product - period.

One was made in Canada and one in Mexico by a foreign car company, Daimler-Chrysler.

Using the UAW propaganda line, all the money went from me, to the dealer to the company to the mother country - nothing was left here for the people to enjoy.

Not only that, a lot of the content is being made in other countries, engines, transmissions and so on, much along our border in those US-Mexican enterprise zones where the wages are equal to other non-union labor in the rest of the country - like up in Indiana where they have "undocumented" workers on the lines of some of the auto suppliers, who by the way may just be UAW members - so where is this line drawn?

Second, just because we wore UAW hats and coats we were driving a GM or Ford or an American company car.

Not really, a lot of people with UAW hats seem to like Toyotas while the jacket people lease their vehicles with discounts that are advertised to the general public.

If you are driving a caravan, isn't that just like driving a VW or a Mercedes or a Toyota for that matter because these are companies that employ American workers.

The lack of pride in the company is demonstrated by the UAW when wearing anything union, this shows the p*ss poor attitude that permeated the entire auto industry and has for a long long time.

You lease a car, not buy it, which then turns into the competition for you later on but then expect some special consideration when you get laid off because no one is buying your products.

Third, Just because we paid dues doesnt make us blind, you all really need to get over that. We didnt agree with everything the UAW does.

We?

I grew up in a Union house, I know the difference between paying dues and being a robot. I don't see too many who are not blind but if you are one of them, great I really think you are the smarter of the majority.

Fourth, The Big 3 as they were once known wanted the unions there to as they the union could enforce the rules alot easier.

That's more of the UAW BS, just like "we built the middle class". Safety?

Safety improved in the plants not because the union but the insurance companies got tired of paying claims.

Compared the when the UAW was needed, in the 30's and 40's, safety was not the main issue, wages were and fairness.

I just dont get this anti-american thing, the more products we buy from overseas companies the more jobs we lose here, or the less pay a worker makes. As i have stated here before, The trucking industry is starting to complain about pay but it has just started for the trucking industry as the trucking industry is next in line for pay cuts and doing more for less.

Actually is it an anti-UAW thing, or anti-Teamsters thing more than anything else. You buy a Toyota or a Honda, it is as American as a GM or Ford for that matter. Ford wanted to build their Fiesta in Mexico, another foreign car being badged as an American made product.

Many of the public are not sympathetic with the "plight" of the autoworker because the union has become too arrogant. The UAW has used their problems to fight for changes that have a serious effect on all of us when the mass majority doesn't want to have these changes at all. The same goes for the GM bailout, here is a company that the union has gotten the majority of stock, which wasn't done to save the company but as a pay off for the union leadership. I feel GM shouldn't have had special help, there was no need for it until the company reestablished itself the right way, not with special things like loans or union getting majority of the stock. I think the people who are ****ed off the most will be the tax payer when they realize that they won't see GM's debt to the country paid back but forgiven and the union walking away with millions.

For me it is much simpler, the UAW worker deserves nothing unless they actually earned it through investing in the company like every other stockholder - not getting handed to you by the tax payers. The truth is the average worker has no investment in the company, they get compensated for their work, which is more than the consumer or tax payer has gotten. The vast majority of the issues like pensions and health care should not be a company or country issue but should sit square on the shoulders of the union who arranged the deal. An awful lot of people as I said are not sympathetic to the UAW worker because they look at what they have, the marginal health care coverage, only a 401k and SS to look forward to in their retired lives and see people complaining that their co-pay for scripts went form zero to $10 to $15 and hearing the complaining. Again that isn't anti-American but anti-Union.

By the way the PBGC is a government entity that is becoming insolvent. The UAW should have been responsible for your pension, and because the PBGC is run by the government and has a safety net with the government, it only should be used when companies can't provide the pension payouts due to some thing other than bad management - like GM.

OH and a cople of last things;

The UAW and other unions vote democrat but the truth is the republicans are the unions best friends. See it comes down to how the parties view the people, the dems view people as dimwitted idiots who need help just to survive while the republicans normally look at people as individuals who are capable of doing well if left alone. The union mentality sits well with the democrats who think people are idiots.

The other thing is why save anyones pension, I mean if you get your money out of it, great but if you don't so. Pension holders should have the same exact risk as anyone else with a retirement package like a 401K. The same should go for health care - why mess my health care up because the retirees of some auto company want to continue having the best care around. So why did the government pay the UAW with GM stock when they didn't have a dime into the company at the same time every retiree could have had access to the same system the rest of the country has? This says to me that Medicare and social security isn't good enough for the union worker which means I should not buy a product that the worker is more important than the public who pays their wage.

 

[skyraider]

J O B stands for , JUST OVER BROKE.

 

[Oilerman1957]

Well that would be true but ...

... it wasn't an American thing, not with Volvos and Saabs, Landrovers and Jaguars sitting in the same lot as the Fords, GMs. Just because the company owns the product, where is the pride in owning a car made in a foreign country when everyone keeps saying "Buy America" - kind of hypocritical isn't it?

The entire thing is a bunch of BS when they, the union worker thinks the CAW worker is the same as a UAW worker but tries so hard to **** on the Mexican worker who in many cases is the same foreign union worker as any UAW worker.

AND when do you draw the line with this American thing?

I mean my caravan is not an American made product - period.

My Dodge ram is not an American made product - period.

One was made in Canada and one in Mexico by a foreign car company, Daimler-Chrysler.

Using the UAW propaganda line, all the money went from me, to the dealer to the company to the mother country - nothing was left here for the people to enjoy.

Not only that, a lot of the content is being made in other countries, engines, transmissions and so on, much along our border in those US-Mexican enterprise zones where the wages are equal to other non-union labor in the rest of the country - like up in Indiana where they have "undocumented" workers on the lines of some of the auto suppliers, who by the way may just be UAW members - so where is this line drawn?



Not really, a lot of people with UAW hats seem to like Toyotas while the jacket people lease their vehicles with discounts that are advertised to the general public.

If you are driving a caravan, isn't that just like driving a VW or a Mercedes or a Toyota for that matter because these are companies that employ American workers.

The lack of pride in the company is demonstrated by the UAW when wearing anything union, this shows the p*ss poor attitude that permeated the entire auto industry and has for a long long time.

You lease a car, not buy it, which then turns into the competition for you later on but then expect some special consideration when you get laid off because no one is buying your products.



We?

I grew up in a Union house, I know the difference between paying dues and being a robot. I don't see too many who are not blind but if you are one of them, great I really think you are the smarter of the majority.



That's more of the UAW BS, just like "we built the middle class". Safety?

Safety improved in the plants not because the union but the insurance companies got tired of paying claims.

Compared the when the UAW was needed, in the 30's and 40's, safety was not the main issue, wages were and fairness.



Actually is it an anti-UAW thing, or anti-Teamsters thing more than anything else. You buy a Toyota or a Honda, it is as American as a GM or Ford for that matter. Ford wanted to build their Fiesta in Mexico, another foreign car being badged as an American made product.

Many of the public are not sympathetic with the "plight" of the autoworker because the union has become too arrogant. The UAW has used their problems to fight for changes that have a serious effect on all of us when the mass majority doesn't want to have these changes at all. The same goes for the GM bailout, here is a company that the union has gotten the majority of stock, which wasn't done to save the company but as a pay off for the union leadership. I feel GM shouldn't have had special help, there was no need for it until the company reestablished itself the right way, not with special things like loans or union getting majority of the stock. I think the people who are ****ed off the most will be the tax payer when they realize that they won't see GM's debt to the country paid back but forgiven and the union walking away with millions.

For me it is much simpler, the UAW worker deserves nothing unless they actually earned it through investing in the company like every other stockholder - not getting handed to you by the tax payers. The truth is the average worker has no investment in the company, they get compensated for their work, which is more than the consumer or tax payer has gotten. The vast majority of the issues like pensions and health care should not be a company or country issue but should sit square on the shoulders of the union who arranged the deal. An awful lot of people as I said are not sympathetic to the UAW worker because they look at what they have, the marginal health care coverage, only a 401k and SS to look forward to in their retired lives and see people complaining that their co-pay for scripts went form zero to $10 to $15 and hearing the complaining. Again that isn't anti-American but anti-Union.

By the way the PBGC is a government entity that is becoming insolvent. The UAW should have been responsible for your pension, and because the PBGC is run by the government and has a safety net with the government, it only should be used when companies can't provide the pension payouts due to some thing other than bad management - like GM.

OH and a cople of last things;

The UAW and other unions vote democrat but the truth is the republicans are the unions best friends. See it comes down to how the parties view the people, the dems view people as dimwitted idiots who need help just to survive while the republicans normally look at people as individuals who are capable of doing well if left alone. The union mentality sits well with the democrats who think people are idiots.

The other thing is why save anyones pension, I mean if you get your money out of it, great but if you don't so. Pension holders should have the same exact risk as anyone else with a retirement package like a 401K. The same should go for health care - why mess my health care up because the retirees of some auto company want to continue having the best care around. So why did the government pay the UAW with GM stock when they didn't have a dime into the company at the same time every retiree could have had access to the same system the rest of the country has? This says to me that Medicare and social security isn't good enough for the union worker which means I should not buy a product that the worker is more important than the public who pays their wage.

First, Only 30% of toyotas sold in this country is made in America, whrere as 60% of Gm sales are made in America, big difference.

Second, Mexican workers are payed 2.50 an hr, that is a shame in itself.

Third, When an aoutmaker made more money and got benes, it brought up the wages of many a tool shop employees, as there wages fall so does the suppliers to GM, FORD etc.
Thats why i wonder when people on here want to see YRW fail, they pay a high wage and when they go, wages will go down for other trucking companies

As far as our pension, we do go on medicare after we turn 65 or something, also cause we had a defined pension plan we were not allowed to have a 401k plan till somewhere in the 90's. We also have to go an SS at 62 and ouR pension gets cut the same amout that SS pays , As far as our health care goes, I pay 15-25 dollars for scripts, no doctor visit are payed

 

[layoutshooter]

You guys at the auto companies were ripped off by both the company and the unions.

I have no use for that UAW after the stuck it to me in the '69. I was working at the Ford Wayne Assembly plant in 1969 right out of high school. Graduated on a Friday and started at Ford on the next Monday. Ford fired me about 3 weeks later, reason, I was a 1A draft status. I went to the union. They said: One, you are not in the union yet so too bad, and two, besides, we would rather have that spot with a dues paying member in it rather than having to keep it open for you.

They suck as bad as the companies do.

 

[Oilerman1957]

You guys at the auto companies were ripped off by both the company and the unions.

I have no use for that UAW after the stuck it to me in the '69. I was working at the Ford Wayne Assembly plant in 1969 right out of high school. Graduated on a Friday and started at Ford on the next Monday. Ford fired me about 3 weeks later, reason, I was a 1A draft status. I went to the union. They said: One, you are not in the union yet so too bad, and two, besides, we would rather have that spot with a dues paying member in it rather than having to keep it open for you.

They suck as bad as the companies do.

Yes we were, instead of funding pension and health care that they promised they took the money and built plants overseas. We never really had much contact with the international union except at contract time, most that you dealt with was local unions who didnt have any say in pay and benes, The locals were made up of people in the plant and they did care. I agree with you on what they did to you, that was wrong, you should've been a union leaders son, lol. Then you would have kept your job.

And the whole Delphi spinoff was nothing but set up to fail, they knew what was going to happen back when they spun them off

 

[layoutshooter]

Yes we were, instead of funding pension and health care that they promised they took the money and built plants overseas. We never really had much contact with the international union except at contract time, most that you dealt with was local unions who didnt have any say in pay and benes, The locals were made up of people in the plant and they did care. I agree with you on what they did to you, that was wrong, you should've been a union leaders son, lol. Then you would have kept your job.

And the whole Delphi spinoff was nothing but set up to fail, they knew what was going to happen back when they spun them off

OH YEAH, the union stewards sons and daughters did will. So did the kids of Ford (and the rest) big wigs kids. The rest of us got ripped a new one.

Those are the reasons that I do not trust the unions, big companies or the government any longer. They are all working together to keep us in our place.

 

[greg334]

First, Only 30% of toyotas sold in this country is made in America, whrere as 60% of Gm sales are made in America, big difference.

So!

The point is GM is just the same as Toyota except the Japanese government doesn't own Toyota as GM is owned by the Union and the government.

The other point is Toyota and other companies provide jobs, they are not paying 3rd world country wages but livable wages that are not outrageous.

Second, Mexican workers are payed 2.50 an hr, that is a shame in itself.

That's another UAW BS line and I can tell you where that came from, their Press Office in 1985. It was used to garner support of the public for the plight of the "working man" as the same BS that the "sweatshop" opponents have been driving home to the public. The truth is Ford and GM both pay union workers a fair wage in their mexican plants based on their economy and cost of living, NOT OURS. Some Union workers there make more than my wife and they are not living in the shacks on the side of the hill where there are open sewage and no running water.

Third, When an aoutmaker made more money and got benes, it brought up the wages of many a tool shop employees, as there wages fall so does the suppliers to GM, FORD etc.
Thats why i wonder when people on here want to see YRW fail, they pay a high wage and when they go, wages will go down for other trucking companies

There was a parity that has been reached in the 1980s, when a worker started to make a lot more than the average consumer buying the product, there was a problem. In other words they are making too much more than what they were actually worth.

Maybe you don't know the history of Labor, if you read and digested the History of Labor published by the UAW, it is so skewed and full of lies, no one would ever see the truth. Well back in 1914, Ford Motor created the working middle class and did it with the $5 a day thing. That wasn't about labor winning, but it was about leveraging the PR for both the public to buy more of the product and to mitigate the turnover of the employees in the plants. It wasn't Ford's idea at all, he was against it for a long time but finally came around and approved it. What it did do was create the working middle class, up until that time, the average worker couldn't afford the car they produced. It spurred on a lot of improvements and brought the standard of living up. The union DID NOT do that at all and never could.

Ford's $5 a day trick was a business decision made like GM moving production to Mexico or buying parts from China because the labor cost exceeded a reasonable amount and the product, consumer and ultimately the company/worker suffered.

The absolute sad thing about some of the Union position is that there should be profit sharing, but the big important thing is missed, the union and the worker have ZERO investment into the company and to force or expect a share in the profits is like expecting free food at a diner when you only delivered the raw food.

As far as our pension, we do go on medicare after we turn 65 or something, also cause we had a defined pension plan we were not allowed to have a 401k plan till somewhere in the 90's. We also have to go an SS at 62 and ouR pension gets cut the same amout that SS pays , As far as our health care goes, I pay 15-25 dollars for scripts, no doctor visit are payed

Yea? So you don't need bailout funded health care - great lets get the stock back from the UAW and sell it to pay the debt back to the people who will end up being screwed over this - the American Tax Payer.

Live like everyone else, social security and medicare, no more tax payer funded pensions or health care.

You should be like everyone who is has a Union sponsored secondary insurance, pay for things out of pocket like doctors visits and the premiums. This should be the punishment for allowing the company to take their product line to the abyss and not doing a thing about it. GM's failure is in part the fault of labor, as much as it is the fault of management.

 

[Oilerman1957]

So!

The point is GM is just the same as Toyota except the Japanese government doesn't own Toyota as GM is owned by the Union and the government.

The other point is Toyota and other companies provide jobs, they are not paying 3rd world country wages but livable wages that are not outrageous.



That's another UAW BS line and I can tell you where that came from, their Press Office in 1985. It was used to garner support of the public for the plight of the "working man" as the same BS that the "sweatshop" opponents have been driving home to the public. The truth is Ford and GM both pay union workers a fair wage in their mexican plants based on their economy and cost of living, NOT OURS. Some Union workers there make more than my wife and they are not living in the shacks on the side of the hill where there are open sewage and no running water.



There was a parity that has been reached in the 1980s, when a worker started to make a lot more than the average consumer buying the product, there was a problem. In other words they are making too much more than what they were actually worth.

Maybe you don't know the history of Labor, if you read and digested the History of Labor published by the UAW, it is so skewed and full of lies, no one would ever see the truth. Well back in 1914, Ford Motor created the working middle class and did it with the $5 a day thing. That wasn't about labor winning, but it was about leveraging the PR for both the public to buy more of the product and to mitigate the turnover of the employees in the plants. It wasn't Ford's idea at all, he was against it for a long time but finally came around and approved it. What it did do was create the working middle class, up until that time, the average worker couldn't afford the car they produced. It spurred on a lot of improvements and brought the standard of living up. The union DID NOT do that at all and never could.

Ford's $5 a day trick was a business decision made like GM moving production to Mexico or buying parts from China because the labor cost exceeded a reasonable amount and the product, consumer and ultimately the company/worker suffered.

The absolute sad thing about some of the Union position is that there should be profit sharing, but the big important thing is missed, the union and the worker have ZERO investment into the company and to force or expect a share in the profits is like expecting free food at a diner when you only delivered the raw food.



Yea? So you don't need bailout funded health care - great lets get the stock back from the UAW and sell it to pay the debt back to the people who will end up being screwed over this - the American Tax Payer.

Live like everyone else, social security and medicare, no more tax payer funded pensions or health care.

You should be like everyone who is has a Union sponsored secondary insurance, pay for things out of pocket like doctors visits and the premiums. This should be the punishment for allowing the company to take their product line to the abyss and not doing a thing about it. GM's failure is in part the fault of labor, as much as it is the fault of management.

Thats your opinion, you go ahead and support the foreign countries, you talk about 40-50 yrs ago< {didnt japan attack this country?} so go ahead and support them. I never got to know my grandfather because of them thank you. BTW union employees pay taxes to, probably more them you, Why should i help fund ur business through tax breaks and such, fund your own business. But thank god i dont think that way, I dont like seeing anyone get burned and would never wish or hope that you lose everything you worked for, for ANY reason.

 

[greg334]

Thats your opinion, you go ahead and support the foreign countries, you talk about 40-50 yrs ago< {didnt japan attack this country?} so go ahead and support them.

Actually I don't really support them as much as I would Ford or GM, but there really isn't much difference. They both employ Americans, and they both produce revenue for the cities and states they are located in with some exceptions.

We conquered Japan the last time I looked, we didn't capitulated or surrendered. It was America that rebuilt Japan so any blame should rest with ourselves in making it possible for a conquered people to rise up and be our equals.

I never got to know my grandfather because of them thank you.

Sorry to hear that but if it was up to me, it would have been a different situation.

BTW union employees pay taxes to, probably more them you, Why should i help fund ur business through tax breaks and such, fund your own business. But thank god i dont think that way, I dont like seeing anyone get burned and would never wish or hope that you lose everything you worked for, for ANY reason.

Well I like the free market, which means that if the company can't or won't produce a product that sells, then they fail and go out of business. GM and Chrysler are two that produce crap for a long time and then cried that no one is buying their products. TFB guys. Part of the bail out has been lies that this will save jobs, GM will come out a better leaner company and they will pay back the money - all lies. GM still plays the same arrogant games as always, not one bit of their management has changed, nothing and still we as tax payers are supposed to feel sorry for the guy or gal that lost their jobs because the company lost market share and then compensate them for it? NO.

The bankruptcy process is to reorganize the company, with breaking the contracts and making sure that among other things the stock holders actually have a change. The Kmart style of screwing the loyal stock holders seems to be a sore point when the UAW didn't deserve a dime in stock or a place on the board. They should have taken a back seat to the debt holders first and then under the new company have each worker vote to allow a union or not.

You know I wish I could get a break on my property taxes like GM has - they got a $211 milliion break from my state - TWO HUNDRED AND ELEVEN MILLION DOLLARS in tax breaks. You know what? After all the b*tching that my governor has done about the state going into the crapper, she hands out tax breaks to a company that should have told their workers they are getting pay cuts and benefit cuts to survive - not let the state or cities suffer and the average tax payer faced with an increased tax burden. Beside all of this, the cost of these taxes are passed on to the people who buy their products.

Look Oilman, I am not talking blindly, I have seen enough inside the UAW and teamsters to know what's going on. Many of the rank and file are clueless as to the politics, the greed and the coruption of the union and most would be better off at this point to be individuals and make deals with the companies, ridding the union altogether. This way I feel the worker has a real fighting chance to keep their jobs.

 

[Oilerman1957]

Actually I don't really support them as much as I would Ford or GM, but there really isn't much difference. They both employ Americans, and they both produce revenue for the cities and states they are located in with some exceptions.

We conquered Japan the last time I looked, we didn't capitulated or surrendered. It was America that rebuilt Japan so any blame should rest with ourselves in making it possible for a conquered people to rise up and be our equals.



Sorry to hear that but if it was up to me, it would have been a different situation.



Well I like the free market, which means that if the company can't or won't produce a product that sells, then they fail and go out of business. GM and Chrysler are two that produce crap for a long time and then cried that no one is buying their products. TFB guys. Part of the bail out has been lies that this will save jobs, GM will come out a better leaner company and they will pay back the money - all lies. GM still plays the same arrogant games as always, not one bit of their management has changed, nothing and still we as tax payers are supposed to feel sorry for the guy or gal that lost their jobs because the company lost market share and then compensate them for it? NO.

The bankruptcy process is to reorganize the company, with breaking the contracts and making sure that among other things the stock holders actually have a change. The Kmart style of screwing the loyal stock holders seems to be a sore point when the UAW didn't deserve a dime in stock or a place on the board. They should have taken a back seat to the debt holders first and then under the new company have each worker vote to allow a union or not.

You know I wish I could get a break on my property taxes like GM has - they got a $211 milliion break from my state - TWO HUNDRED AND ELEVEN MILLION DOLLARS in tax breaks. You know what? After all the b*tching that my governor has done about the state going into the crapper, she hands out tax breaks to a company that should have told their workers they are getting pay cuts and benefit cuts to survive - not let the state or cities suffer and the average tax payer faced with an increased tax burden. Beside all of this, the cost of these taxes are passed on to the people who buy their products.

Look Oilman, I am not talking blindly, I have seen enough inside the UAW and teamsters to know what's going on. Many of the rank and file are clueless as to the politics, the greed and the coruption of the union and most would be better off at this point to be individuals and make deals with the companies, ridding the union altogether. This way I feel the worker has a real fighting chance to keep their jobs.

Yes Greg, there is a difference, one only makes 30% of what they sell here the other makes 60 to 70% of what they sell here, big difference. Yes they both employ americans here but you can believe toyota would not pay the wages they do if the big 3 didnt pay what they did, fact.
Gm has made mangement changes, so thats not true either.

Tax breaks, WHO DO YOU THINK STARTED THOSE? Your japanese friends did, they pitted state against state, community against community for all sorts of tax breaks before they even would bring a plant to that community. They wouldnt build
a plant in michigan because they said the workers were to close to unions. They could give a rats *** about the communities they are in. You speak fondly of a company that would'nt take a s*** in your state and run down a company that used to employ tens of thousands there,and still do, go figure

Im not talking blindly either. You say union members are clueless to politics but then you say they could make deals on there own, which is it?

 

[greg334]

I really hope you are not taking any of this personal. It is years and years of dealing with the union and the people who run it that has made me synical at best.

Yes Greg, there is a difference, one only makes 30% of what they sell here the other makes 60 to 70% of what they sell here, big difference. Yes they both employ americans here but you can believe toyota would not pay the wages they do if the big 3 didnt pay what they did, fact.

Not really, when you look at the structure, the sources of revenue and the fact that all these companies have some interconnection, they are all the same. It doesn't matter if GM has 40% content or Toyota has 70% content, the thing it that they are the same - they make a product for the WORLD market.

If you examine the history of the British auto industry, you will see the same thing happening here. You can even take it a step further and look at their cotton industry to see what happened when India started cotton production - apply it to any industry here, labor prices itself out of work.

GM's problem has always been skewing the sales numbers and then not producing products people want to buy. The KEY is want to buy because leasing is not a real sale - people lease or rent the vehicle and then when they vehicle is returned, it is usually sold as a used but rather new vehicle which now is competing for a buyer in the same market that the company is trying to sell their new version in. I don't know if that makes sense, but it is recognized by people at GM as a serious problem.

Gm has made mangement changes, so thats not true either.

I haven't seen any changes and I was there just the other day visiting a friend. The last I heard they are still using the same management system that they had in place since Alfred Sloan put in place the system back in 1923, and actually expanded on some of it. Nothing has changed except the names which is exactly the problem. Most of the people who are actually pulling the strings there are "GM People" and like our government, have come up the ranks as 'company men'. If you want to see a very good representation of what I am talking about go rent "How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying" because it actually illustrates the Yes men and the politics that still go on.

See the real problem with Sloan's management system is that it is too slow to respond to the consumer, it assumes that the consumer is too dumb to think outside of the box and the company can depend on loyalty, not quality. This has been the problem since the first import invasion in the late 50's.

The one person who is still there that should have been axed when they asked for money is Bob Lutz, he screwed GM like he did Chrysler and seems to be still there - amazing that no one seems to care about him.

Tax breaks, WHO DO YOU THINK STARTED THOSE? Your japanese friends did, they pitted state against state, community against community for all sorts of tax breaks before they even would bring a plant to that community. They wouldnt build
a plant in michigan because they said the workers were to close to unions. They could give a rats *** about the communities they are in. You speak fondly of a company that would'nt take a s*** in your state and run down a company that used to employ tens of thousands there,and still do, go figure

Well the people are the problem when it comes to the competition for a business to land in their community, they don't really think but that's not my point. Here we have GM with billions of dollars demanding for tax breaks or they will move. One such move was out of Detroit and into Warren where they have been since the 50's which is a good thing. Consolidating operations would be the best thing for them to do to save money but because they would "abandon" Detroit, the people felt it was too ****ing much for Detroit to sacrifice - forget the lack of Loyalty that GM showed Detroit by axing most of the really profitable dealers. So GM got $211M in tax breaks to waste more money. By the way they stuck the city with the old empty GM building when they moved, displaced most of the tenants in the rencen which had 80% occupancy and now wants tax breaks to stay there? The people were stupid to allow it to happen in the first place.

You know another thing that comes to mind is if you want to talk about competition, please research what happened at Willow Run and how the UAW pitted plant against plant because of GM. The same goes for American Axle and how the UAW literally screwed their members.

Im not talking blindly either. You say union members are clueless to politics but then you say they could make deals on there own, which is it?

A LOT of UAW members are clueless about politics, they see it in only black and white terms with no gray areas at all and told how to think.

 

[Oilerman1957]

I really hope you are not taking any of this personal. It is years and years of dealing with the union and the people who run it that has made me synical at best.



Not really, when you look at the structure, the sources of revenue and the fact that all these companies have some interconnection, they are all the same. It doesn't matter if GM has 40% content or Toyota has 70% content, the thing it that they are the same - they make a product for the WORLD market.

If you examine the history of the British auto industry, you will see the same thing happening here. You can even take it a step further and look at their cotton industry to see what happened when India started cotton production - apply it to any industry here, labor prices itself out of work.

GM's problem has always been skewing the sales numbers and then not producing products people want to buy. The KEY is want to buy because leasing is not a real sale - people lease or rent the vehicle and then when they vehicle is returned, it is usually sold as a used but rather new vehicle which now is competing for a buyer in the same market that the company is trying to sell their new version in. I don't know if that makes sense, but it is recognized by people at GM as a serious problem.



I haven't seen any changes and I was there just the other day visiting a friend. The last I heard they are still using the same management system that they had in place since Alfred Sloan put in place the system back in 1923, and actually expanded on some of it. Nothing has changed except the names which is exactly the problem. Most of the people who are actually pulling the strings there are "GM People" and like our government, have come up the ranks as 'company men'. If you want to see a very good representation of what I am talking about go rent "How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying" because it actually illustrates the Yes men and the politics that still go on.

See the real problem with Sloan's management system is that it is too slow to respond to the consumer, it assumes that the consumer is too dumb to think outside of the box and the company can depend on loyalty, not quality. This has been the problem since the first import invasion in the late 50's.

The one person who is still there that should have been axed when they asked for money is Bob Lutz, he screwed GM like he did Chrysler and seems to be still there - amazing that no one seems to care about him.



Well the people are the problem when it comes to the competition for a business to land in their community, they don't really think but that's not my point. Here we have GM with billions of dollars demanding for tax breaks or they will move. One such move was out of Detroit and into Warren where they have been since the 50's which is a good thing. Consolidating operations would be the best thing for them to do to save money but because they would "abandon" Detroit, the people felt it was too ****ing much for Detroit to sacrifice - forget the lack of Loyalty that GM showed Detroit by axing most of the really profitable dealers. So GM got $211M in tax breaks to waste more money. By the way they stuck the city with the old empty GM building when they moved, displaced most of the tenants in the rencen which had 80% occupancy and now wants tax breaks to stay there? The people were stupid to allow it to happen in the first place.

You know another thing that comes to mind is if you want to talk about competition, please research what happened at Willow Run and how the UAW pitted plant against plant because of GM. The same goes for American Axle and how the UAW literally screwed their members.



A LOT of UAW members are clueless about politics, they see it in only black and white terms with no gray areas at all and told how to think.

No i dont take it personal, labor pay goes down, production goes up, and prices continue to rise, One day soon people wont be able to afford anything maybe then prices will fall in line.

I do understand what you are saying, but i see so much crap on here against our country, our president, congress, unions, people in general, Why does no one post anything postive that all these gov and organizations do? There are plenty you know. It has become so much about your a leftest ur a commie, your a rightie, your a dumbass. The parties have us right where they want us, arguing between each other. Instead of people of labour standing together we stand accusing each other of not deserving what we get and in the meantime the people at the top are raking in all the money. I watch my taxpayer money getting used on all sort of things that i just cant believe we spend money on, but as soon as i need help on my pension people say tough luck, you were over payed anyways. No one complained about me paying 20,000 dollars a yr in taxes all the time i was single.

 

[layoutshooter]

I have NEVER said anything against our Country in here. I have about the government and Obama. I took an oath to protect and defend our Constitution. We are no longer following it. Obama is not, nor is our Congress. When I take an oath I take it for real. I am NOT a politician.

 

[Oilerman1957]

They are part of our country. And when was the last time you think it was followed?

 

[layoutshooter]

They are part of our country. And when was the last time you think it was followed?

One, I don't believe that they support our Nation. Two, just because our government ignores the Law of the Land does not make it right, does it? Are you willing to give up any Right under the Bill of Rights? I am not. Nothing this, or any government, can promise me or lie to me about is worth my Rights and freedoms. Nothing.

As I said, I took that oath and when I take I oath it is for life and it is meant as said. NO, man nor government can change that either. If and when it reaches that point, I will fight. That is what I swore before God. THAT means something to me. Maybe not many if any of our politicians but it does to me.

I don't like the status quo. Our government is corrupt!! You know that to be true. It is our duty to fix that. Keep in mind that under our Constitution the People hold the power, not the Federal Government. It is time to bring them back under our control.

 

[Oilerman1957]

One, I don't believe that they support our Nation. Two, just because our government ignores the Law of the Land does not make it right, does it? Are you willing to give up any Right under the Bill of Rights? I am not. Nothing this, or any government, can promise me or lie to me about is worth my Rights and freedoms. Nothing.

As I said, I took that oath and when I take I oath it is for life and it is meant as said. NO, man nor government can change that either. If and when it reaches that point, I will fight. That is what I swore before God. THAT means something to me. Maybe not many if any of our politicians but it does to me.

I don't like the status quo. Our government is corrupt!! You know that to be true. It is our duty to fix that. Keep in mind that under our Constitution the People hold the power, not the Federal Government. It is time to bring them back under our control.

So when was the last time it was followed?