Just another one of those "Gotchya" questions.

tbubster

Seasoned Expediter
They should all be held to the same standard, but having a "Oh yeah, so's your mother" attitude is the problem.
what does"oh yeah so's your mother attitude"???? mean

It's not just the inconsistencies of Bachmann that make her look bad, it's also the tremendous hypocrisy of railing against "government welfare" [such as Medicaid & farm subsidies] while collecting them herself. Apparently, she's against them for other people but not when they benefit her own family. The last thing we need in politics is more successful hypocrites ruling our lives.
Personally, I crossed her off the list when she said God told her to run for the Presidency - in my experience, that's what delusional people say to justify their decision to do what they want to do, and to deflect criticism for doing it in advance.

maybe you should read what she really said about god.she never said god told her to run!!!!what she said is after praying about it she felt like it was a calling.the same as any preist or preacher has done befor deciding to that kind of life style.much like anyone does that has a strong faith in god befor making a life changing decision. much like the way in 2010 in a interview with barbara waters Obama says he prays every night for guideness.does this make him a delusional person.maybe this reason for you not voteing for her is why many belive the left does not belive in god.

as far as the welfare goes name one person in washington that has not said something is bad, then reaped the rewards from it.!!!!!!!!Obama says the oil subsidies must stop yet he voted for them in 2005.he says he does not take money from the oil companys yet he has fund raisers on billionaires row in cali at the gettys house!so i guess now im deflecting for pointing out your own hypocrisy in tring to discredit someone for the very things you find acceptable when a democrat does it.:D
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Do you ever read what people say or do you just browse through and come up with what you want because you do this all the time.

As the two aren't mutually exclusive, I read what people say, then respond to what kind of 'jumps out' at me.

What did I deflect?

The comment about "the left can't handle pointing out their inconsistancies" in a thread about the candidacy of someone on the right - that's deflection. Which follows every critical comment about anyone on the right - the conversation gets turned to examples of the left's behavior. Do you read what people say, or did that escape your notice?
I pointed out she is right and used an example to show Witness pulls the same uninformed garbage constantly, try fully reading and understanding what people are talking about before you jump on people, it makes your cause look bad.

Um....what cause?

A fool opens their mouth because they have to say something, a wise man opens his mouth because he has something to say.

Pretty intelligent observation, there. I had something to say: when every criticism of 'the right' is deflected


Ummm, its called a joke, I made a comment towards someone that is on the same side of the debate in question that I am. If I was directing it towards Witness I would agree with you but that just isn't the case here. That is my point about reading and understanding what is being said, it is important that both are being done.

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paullud

Veteran Expediter
My point is, whenever the 'right' is criticised, all they can say is 'so does the left'.

I have never really seen a conservative use that as there only argument though, I have seen that tactic used but it is also followed by something else. You would also have to be aware of where that person really falls politically, I have used that tactic when someone was complaining about Obama taking away our rights, I felt the need to basically say Oh yeah so do the Republicans and point to the Patriot Act. There are really different factions in each party but everyone gets cast as right or left it seems. I think most want less government in their lives and the freedom to do what they want as long as it doesn't take away the rights of others. I would be cast as a religious conservative but don't follow the party line on some big issues like gay marriage.

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paullud

Veteran Expediter
Not sure why I'm doing this, but here goes.

So you believe that John Quincy Adams is a Founding Father, right?

Alright, answer this for me then. Where is the cut off when speaking of our Founding Fathers? Who is included in your list of Founding Fathers? What criteria do you use to ascertain that someone should be considered a Founding Father?

Really this depends on the individual's definition of founding fathers but surely you think John Adams and Ben Franklin are founding fathers.

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greg334

Veteran Expediter
Well see here is the thing, John Quincy Adams was 9 years old when his father, John Adams, worked with the rest of the founding fathers on both the declaration of independence and the forming of our government - he, John Quincy Adams had absolutely nothing to do with being a founding father or anything to do with that time.

However Bachmann also claims that John Quincy Adams had a lot to do with the end of slavery which again she really got it wrong. His anti-slavery work, which was limited to his petitions in the house, more importantly defending those Africans in the Amistad case and in a bigger sense the fight he led on the anti-slavery side with the Missouri Compromise. It took a lot more than his fight to end or even be a bigger part of the end of slavery.
 

tbubster

Seasoned Expediter
I can follow just fine.thanks for the info on that though.I really dont see it that way I see it as that is the only thing the left can say when faced with the facts that matter in the real world.And knowing where john wayne was born.or something bachmann said in 05 not really out there in the real world.the country was a much different place in 05 then it is today.like a president that says he is against oil subsides, yet he voted to give them the subsidies.Then takes millions from them for his campaign. or when he says he is about creating jobs here in america,then turns around in the same speach and talks about expanding the trade deals with china and other countrys.(his last state of the union).
I can also follow along just fine when he opens his mouth and says something really stupid.Just one question for you all on the left here though how is all that hope and change working out for you???
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Well see here is the thing, John Quincy Adams was 9 years old when his father, John Adams, worked with the rest of the founding fathers on both the declaration of independence and the forming of our government - he, John Quincy Adams had absolutely nothing to do with being a founding father or anything to do with that time.

However Bachmann also claims that John Quincy Adams had a lot to do with the end of slavery which again she really got it wrong. His anti-slavery work, which was limited to his petitions in the house, more importantly defending those Africans in the Amistad case and in a bigger sense the fight he led on the anti-slavery side with the Missouri Compromise. It took a lot more than his fight to end or even be a bigger part of the end of slavery.

As it has already been pointed out Adams worked along with his dad. You are saying he did nothing to end slavery except he fought to end slavery, you gave examples of him working to end it but say he didn't end it so he meant nothing to the movement. A war is not won or lost by the outcome of one battle.

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witness23

Veteran Expediter
Really this depends on the individual's definition of founding fathers but surely you think John Adams and Ben Franklin are founding fathers.

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You answered a question with a question.

What is your definition of a Founding Father? Where is the cut off of the Founding Father's?
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
As it has already been pointed out Adams worked along with his dad.

Worked along his dad's side when?

It wasn't when the Declaration of Independence was written nor it was during the time of the war, and it wasn't when we were a confederation or even a country. He accompanied his father to Europe when he was an ambassador but he didn't "work" along with his dad. He choose a different path and that wasn't to involve politics until toward the end of his fathers political career which I may add his very short career was ended by Jefferson

You are saying he did nothing to end slavery except he fought to end slavery, you gave examples of him working to end it but say he didn't end it so he meant nothing to the movement. A war is not won or lost by the outcome of one battle.

Put the entire slavery issue in perspective of the times and the people involved and you will see his effort was way less than those who actually put on the line their lives and family. He was censured for his actions and words in the house, he wasn't like by many who were abolitionist and he scared away funding from those in England who wanted to see a divide here to split the country so they can come back into the scene.

His petitions were symbolic but the more important thing was his defense of the Africans in the Amistad case. Outside of that, nope didn't do much in comparison.

No matter how you or Bachmann wants to spin history, bringing up slavery shows me her desperation on trying to correct her take on history which is flawed (but not important to be president). I think she should better herself by taking a few history classes and actually debating that girl who challenged her if she wants to look good - either way that girl will trash her.
 

witness23

Veteran Expediter
Not too mention, John Quincy Adams was not a Founding Father.

The point of the whole thing is, She(Bachmann) cannot admit they made a mistake, a gaffe, a slip of the tongue, an error, or a simple blunder. Instead, she double downs and tries to convince the people she is speaking to that she knows what she is talking about. Believe or not, those people she is speaking to(including a few in the Soapbox) is a very small minority that reside here in the United States.

Since the real issue has eluded some here in the Soapbox, I will try and explain so that you may understand why she is being cast in a negative spotlight and why I decided to start the thread. Here goes, ready?

Notice that there wasn't a thread started about Bachmann flubbing the birth place of John Wayne in HER hometown, Watertown, IA? You know why? Because nobody cares, it was a simple mistake and one that doesn't mean anything about her being President or not. She was pandering to the crowd at best and made a mistake, no harm, no foul.

*Please, lets keep this to the confines of the Soapbox*

Then we have here comment referring to John Quincy Adams as a Founding Father. Here's the transcript or click here for the link to the video and full transcript. Which I might add is worth the time to view.

Stephanopoulos: But that’s not what you said. You said that the Founding Fathers worked tirelessly to end slavery.

Bachmann: Well if you look at one of our Founding Fathers, John Quincy Adams, that’s absolutely true. He was a very young boy when he was with his father serving essentially as his father’s secretary. He tirelessly worked throughout his life to make sure that we did in fact one day eradicate slavery….
*emphasis added by me

Stephanopoulos: He wasn’t one of the Founding Fathers – he was a president, he was a Secretary of State, he was a member of Congress, you’re right he did work to end slavery decades later. But so you are standing by this comment that the Founding Fathers worked tirelessly to end slavery?

Bachmann: Well, John Quincy Adams most certainly was a part of the Revolutionary War era. He was a young boy but he was actively involved.

It's not the fact that she said, "one of our Founding Father's, John Quincy Adams", that would be a gaffe, and any reasonable person would either correct themselves on the spot, or more than likely later, like the next day after they realized what they said was a mistake and clearify what they meant. But unfortunately, she and others here in the soapbox believe that statement to be true. Despite all the evidence, they will stand by her statement that John Quincy Adams should be considered a Founding Father.

You see, nobody believes that the President thinks there are 57 states, but it is clearly evident here in the soapbox, people now believe that John Quincy Adams was a Founding Father. :(
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
See here is the thing that gets me, if she would admit to the mistake and take it like an adult, then it shows integrity but when you have the circling of the wagons and the complaining that the "leftist" in the media are trashing her at the same time trying to deflect the issue by bringing up Obama, it seems that it shows the shallowness of the candidate and the defenders to look beyond any correction and present someone who is up to doing the job.

The same goes for Palin, she is now trashing people in the very profession she has chosen to be in - Hollywood. Her reasoning may be justified in her mind but she entered the entertainment world and needs to understand it is her exposure that has put her in the spot light and everything is fair game. It makes her look as small as those who critisize her in the first place. The a lot of people don't care about those in hollywood when it comes to political matters anyway.
 

tbubster

Seasoned Expediter
palin was trashing no one she was asking what the hell is thesse people problems.why are the so filled with hate.no one no mater what level they are on should be talked about the way hollywood and you here on the left talk about her and her family.just for haveing different views on life and whats good or bad for this country.for you to write on here that it ok for some in hollywood to do this shows how small of a person you are.and sorry to break it to you there are many more of us "republicans then you think" as you will see in 2012.

you can say what ever you want about it only being deflecting.the left does it on a much larger scale.the media on the left finds things that dont matter at all then turns it into front page news.and why do they do this to keep the spot light off the great one Obama.if they dont do this then more and more people will see just how much of a screw up this guy really is.

yesterday obama says he finds it amussing when he haers he should show more leadership.REALLY he finds it funny that the american people want him to take less vacations and be more of a leader.he finds it funny that the american people want him to lead in the budget talks and not pass it of to good ole joe.he finds it funny that the american people want him to do his job and keep his promises to bring the troops home.A promise that was a big part of him getting the job he has now.instead he says he is gonna bring home 33,000 over the next two years,funny that is the number of troops he has sent over there sence he took the job.thesse are real issues that affect real lives yet the media and the left as a whole only wanna talk about bachmann screwing up her history,or about palins emails.this is defflecting on the largest scale there is plane and simple.

because we defend some one does not make us shallow to me you thinking that shows how small minded you are.as far as the founding fathers go.its funny that you on the left think only a few are founding fathers.i think anyone who was here in the first 100 years or so.you know the one that helped shape the country.the ones who were willing to take up arms and give their live so others could live free.well they were founding fathers.the founding farthers were not just the one that were in goverment.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
anyone notice barry got his oldest daughters age wrong yesterday...he said his daughters were 13 and 10...she is 12....:rolleyes:
 
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