Joplin, A Quick Story...

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
With respect to Joplin the building codes department should make it mandated that any and all structures being rebuilt have a hardened storm shelter below ground with a pinging gps system if it's covered with debris after a tornado.

That picture of the bank with just the poured concrete walls of a vault standing unscathed should be a good starting point. If the homeowners cant afford it then a community shelter should be made available.

It didn't seem like anyone learned anything since that F 5 that was almost rated an F 6 that mowed through Oklahoma city in the late 90s. You cant be above ground in those storms. Its not the tornado itself its all the junk in it crushing everything.

Yes, Agreed..I was just mentioning this to my wife...how many public buildings and private don't have ample storm shelters....the nursing home comes to mind...what 11 seniors died...just whipped away...it should be building code in high risk areas...hiding in a closet in an f4/f5 is just silly..
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
You're lumping an awful lot of people into a single category that fits a particular image or stereotype. Not that it matters, but there's a term for that.

What's the term intelligent? Deductive reasoning? I hope you are not trying to call me a racist, if you want I can send a copy of an obituary for my black friend where I am listed as a pall bearer.

Just look at the exaggerations... Tens of thousands were waiting for limousines, everybody in New Orleans was carrying around a TV, there were cars there, so they could have gotten out (never mind the fact that many of them didn't work, and most people didn't own a car, I supposed they could have looted one, tho), you saw plenty of able bodied people, but assume there were no sick, injured or handicapped people.

Actually I specifically said the handicapped should have been helped. The whole limo comment was obviously a joke but I was just trying to say these people stopped thinking for themselves and couldn't make simple choices without the government telling them what to do. Yes there were tens of thousands that stayed. As far as taking a car I wouldn't consider them bad people if they took a car that was left behind I would look at it as a reasonable choice.

Well, I'll give ya that one, we certainly have different views on the value of life. I think all life is precious, that is shouldn't be taken, or dismissed, lightly, and you clearly think only a certain kind of person has value, one that lives their life in a manner in which you approve. All I can say is, wow. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, but only if they're deemed worthy. It's kinda catchy.

I am not able to look at a child molester and think his life is precious but you can and I commend you for it. I don't value a person that is a destroyer of life or happiness plain and simple. I am not saying you are wrong because that is your opinion and I respect and accept it. Trying to use the golden rule would work against you in this case since they let everything go to heck it would mean we should do the same.

These are the same people who's lives have no value in your eyes, and you'd have just as soon left for dead because they had no way to help themselves. Our town is better off because of them. Fortunately, we got to them before, ahem, others left them alone.

I don't think all the people there are evil people but they contribute to turning New Orleans into a cesspool by not stepping up and fixing their city and turning in scumbags that deal drugs, rape, and kill. Their way of life needs to change and maybe they will be productive.


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greg334

Veteran Expediter
No, Greg, that may be why you're embarrassed, but it's a national embarrassment because we failed to get aid to them. I guarantee you that 10, 20 even 30 days after Katrina, that this nation was not embarrassed because we as a nation allowed the local officials to be reelected. <snort>

It matter when people make claims that it was an embarrassment to the country of what happened to one city where we as a nation have no control over the actions of their elected officials. When you have civic leaders making claims that the feds didn't care while they themselves prevented people from exiting the city, it is an embarrassment to allow those people to continue to be in power and represent those who are victims of both a corrupt government and a natural disaster. It is the job of the local and state government to ensure the people are taken care of, not the nation and both the city and state failed the people.

Furthermore if you want to actually tag something as a national embarrassment, it is the people were ignored or bypassed to rescue New Orleans. It is these people who were left without the help, even though there was enough help waiting to be deployed.
 

Doggie Daddy

Veteran Expediter
In my mind, the people of N.O. were left to fend for themselves when every level of government failed miserably.

When I think back to all of the pictures that I saw, two of them really stand out. The first one was the hundreds of school buses rendered completely useless by the floodwaters, and the second was the thousands of people on the bridge that were forced out of the superdome, but then once they went the only they could (I-10) they were trapped because the parishes that weren't flooded refused to allow them into their communities.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
In my mind, the people of N.O. were left to fend for themselves when every level of government failed miserably.

When I think back to all of the pictures that I saw, two of them really stand out. The first one was the hundreds of school buses rendered completely useless by the floodwaters, and the second was the thousands of people on the bridge that were forced out of the superdome, but then once they went the only they could (I-10) they were trapped because the parishes that weren't flooded refused to allow them into their communities.


That is why they needed to rely on themselves first instead of their instincts which were to rely on a government that doesn't know them or their family to take care of them. If they would have taken care of themselves they could have driven, rode a bike, or walked out before the storm.
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cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
That is why they needed to rely on themselves first instead of their instincts which were to rely on a government that doesn't know them or their family to take care of them. If they would have taken care of themselves they could have driven, rode a bike, or walked out before the storm.
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"They could have driven" - except they were mostly the poorest of the poor, and mostly didn't own vehicles. Even if they did, [or stole one, as you would have graciously overlooked], how far would they have got without money for gas? And then what do they do?
"Rode a bike" - that's a great suggestion, for the elderly, [and those who looked after them] people with babies & little kids - yeah, easy..
"Walked out" - again, how far would they get? And as Turtle pointed out, the neighboring parishes [counties] posted police to prevent them from entering.
It's so easy to say what they should have done, when you have your mind made up that some folks deserve less than others [criminals excepted]. :(
 

golfournut

Veteran Expediter
They could have used the school buses, but the mayor didn't have a clue. Much like when we had to evacuate Houston for hurricane Rita. What a mess that was.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
"They could have driven" - except they were mostly the poorest of the poor, and mostly didn't own vehicles. Even if they did, [or stole one, as you would have graciously overlooked], how far would they have got without money for gas? And then what do they do?
"Rode a bike" - that's a great suggestion, for the elderly, [and those who looked after them] people with babies & little kids - yeah, easy..
"Walked out" - again, how far would they get? And as Turtle pointed out, the neighboring parishes [counties] posted police to prevent them from entering.
It's so easy to say what they should have done, when you have your mind made up that some folks deserve less than others [criminals excepted]. :(

I think you missed my point, these people were put in a bad position because of their actions and their unwillingness to react because they expected the government to run their life. Any of your concerns about the distance they needed to travel don't make sense because they just needed to move a short distance and the police were not stopping them before the storm they were trying to prevent another problem. I think people need to research a little further to realize how much damage was actually done in New Orleans, you have to remember the media needed to cover themselves after they started running numbers like 10,000 were dead on the front page. New Orleans didn't even take the direct hit, it got more attention because more people know where it is located.

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Doggie Daddy

Veteran Expediter
The storm was big but the actual area of New Orleans that was effected was not.

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We made a delivery into N.O. just 2 weeks after Katrina hit and let me tell you the entire city was greatly affected.

As a matter of fact the east side of N.O. is still to this day largely an uninhabited area.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I think you missed my point, these people were put in a bad position because of their actions and their unwillingness to react because they expected the government to run their life.

Clearly, you have your mind made up: poor folks deserve whatever they get, or don't get.
Any of your concerns about the distance they needed to travel don't make sense because they just needed to move a short distance
How far is that "short distance"? Short enough for the elderly to walk?
and the police were not stopping them before the storm they were trying to prevent another problem. I think people need to research a little further to realize how much damage was actually done in New Orleans,
Maybe some people do, but I lived there in the 80's - I KNOW how much damage was done.
you have to remember the media needed to cover themselves after they started running numbers like 10,000 were dead on the front page. New Orleans didn't even take the direct hit, it got more attention because more people know where it is located.
It got more attention because it was a horrific example of how inept many officials at all levels of government were.
Before last week, how many knew where Joplin, Mo is?
Don't bother answering that, your mind is closed, that's clear enough.

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paullud

Veteran Expediter
I think you missed my point, these people were put in a bad position because of their actions and their unwillingness to react because they expected the government to run their life.

Clearly, you have your mind made up: poor folks deserve whatever they get, or don't get.
Any of your concerns about the distance they needed to travel don't make sense because they just needed to move a short distance
How far is that "short distance"? Short enough for the elderly to walk?
and the police were not stopping them before the storm they were trying to prevent another problem. I think people need to research a little further to realize how much damage was actually done in New Orleans,
Maybe some people do, but I lived there in the 80's - I KNOW how much damage was done.
you have to remember the media needed to cover themselves after they started running numbers like 10,000 were dead on the front page. New Orleans didn't even take the direct hit, it got more attention because more people know where it is located.
It got more attention because it was a horrific example of how inept many officials at all levels of government were.
Before last week, how many knew where Joplin, Mo is?
Don't bother answering that, your mind is closed, that's clear enough.

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Unfortunately you have your mind made up about what I am saying but you have it completely wrong. I wish you would read what I am typing and not skim through it and jump to your own conclusion. I don't care if a person makes a living working at McDonald's or Walmart I made specific references to this before so I don't care if they are poor or millionaires they made bad choices and paid a consequence. As far as putting a value on a person's life in my mind a billionaire child molester has less value than the person going to work everyday at McDonald's. My views have nothing to do with class it is about accepting responsibility for the position you put yourself in.

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Deville

Not a Member
I'm a member of the B.P.O ELKS, our Joplin lodge was completly destroyed. We lost 3 members & the bartender on duty. It's a total disaster. We have been taking donations & sending supplies. It's a nightmare.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I'm a member of the B.P.O ELKS, our Joplin lodge was completly destroyed. We lost 3 members & the bartender on duty. It's a total disaster. We have been taking donations & sending supplies. It's a nightmare.

That is too bad Deville.....:(
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
I'm a member of the B.P.O ELKS, our Joplin lodge was completly destroyed. We lost 3 members & the bartender on duty. It's a total disaster. We have been taking donations & sending supplies. It's a nightmare.

That's rough, my dad and grandfather were members as well and it is usually a father/son and best friend environment so when one hurts it effects the others.

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
What's the term intelligent? Deductive reasoning?
No, certainly not intelligent, nor would deductive reasoning be the term. The term is "stereotyping", or more accurately, "prejudicial stereotyping". Stereotyping is when you create a set of inaccurate, simplistic generalizations about a group that allows one to categorize them and treat them accordingly. In this case, prejudicial because of the abject disdain you show against an entire class of people because you think they are lazy, are on government assistance and like it, and you are lumping a very large group of people into the same category.

I hope you are not trying to call me a racist, if you want I can send a copy of an obituary for my black friend where I am listed as a pall bearer.
Well, no, race actually hadn't crossed my mind, UNTIL NOW. Using the whole "Hey! My best friend is <whatever>!" routine as somehow being proof of not being racist is pretty lame and it never works. It's like that one guy here who railed and railed about how evil Muslims are, all Muslims, and then when he got called on it we find out that his best friend for zabazaba years is a Muslim and they eat dinner together 11 nights a week and go for long moonlit walks on the beach together on Sunday afternoons.

No, I really don't think you are racist. Although I do wonder about the phrase "my black friend" instead of "my friend". You may want to watch that in the future, as well as using that as being some proof that you're not. It looks bad and conveys the wrong message, assuming that it's the wrong message. But like I said, I don't think you are racist, but I do think you are bigoted against people who are of the poor and less-fortunate ilk.

Actually I specifically said the handicapped should have been helped. The whole limo comment was obviously a joke but I was just trying to say these people stopped thinking for themselves and couldn't make simple choices without the government telling them what to do. Yes there were tens of thousands that stayed. As far as taking a car I wouldn't consider them bad people if they took a car that was left behind I would look at it as a reasonable choice.
No, the limo comment really wasn't a joke. You may have thought it funny or clever, but it was a biting sardonic illustration of just how you feel about these people. The only thing missing was the <snort>.

You can bring up the robber or the child molester or whatever as having less of a value of life, and in those extremes I'd agree with you. But the tens of thousands people in New Orleans that you have all lumped together were most certainly not all robbers and child molesters. They were simply people that were trapped in a bad situation, many of no fault of their own, but simply because they were born there and cannot figure a way out of it all. Their life has value.

You say it's not about class, yet everything you post says otherwise (that's another reason "racist" never occurred to me). You say they put themselves in the position they were in, but that's patently not true for the vast majority of them. Some, sure, but not in the numbers you like to believe. Most are a product of their environment, and do not have the education or the opportunity or the ability to get out. If you think it's so easy for the poor to figure out how to get out from being poor and to start a new life, especially since both the environment and the government practically encourage it, I see a new life mission for you. You'll be famous 'round the world. But the solutions you're coming up with are just ridiculously unworkable. Just leave, walk out, OK, then what? No money, no education, no place to live. Yeah, I can see that being much better.

Trying to use the golden rule would work against you in this case since they let everything go to heck it would mean we should do the same.
That's not even remotely close to what the Golden Rule means.

"...since they let everything go to heck..."

That right there is prejudicial stereotyping at it's finest. Wow, you really hate poor people, don't you? Broad, cold hatred for those who cannot live up to your standards. I'm really glad your life has been peaches and cream and you've always been able to pick yourself up and get back on your feet when things have gone wrong, but you may want to do a little introspecting on the fact that not everybody can do that. Just because they can't help themselves, or don't know how, or find it more difficult than you think it is, I don't think their life has no value.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Deville, I had dinner on 2 nights with a young man that was a member of the Joplin Elks...he is a pipefitter with a company that works at nuke plants all over the country..he came home to a bad situation,,,his wife is a waiteress at the Logans roadhouse...If I remember right, they are doing funerals yesterday or today for the lost Elk Members...:(
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
No, certainly not intelligent, nor would deductive reasoning be the term. The term is "stereotyping", or more accurately, "prejudicial stereotyping". Stereotyping is when you create a set of inaccurate, simplistic generalizations about a group that allows one to categorize them and treat them accordingly. In this case, prejudicial because of the abject disdain you show against an entire class of people because you think they are lazy, are on government assistance and like it, and you are lumping a very large group of people into the same category.

Well, no, race actually hadn't crossed my mind, UNTIL NOW. Using the whole "Hey! My best friend is <whatever>!" routine as somehow being proof of not being racist is pretty lame and it never works. It's like that one guy here who railed and railed about how evil Muslims are, all Muslims, and then when he got called on it we find out that his best friend for zabazaba years is a Muslim and they eat dinner together 11 nights a week and go for long moonlit walks on the beach together on Sunday afternoons.

No, I really don't think you are racist. Although I do wonder about the phrase "my black friend" instead of "my friend". You may want to watch that in the future, as well as using that as being some proof that you're not. It looks bad and conveys the wrong message, assuming that it's the wrong message. But like I said, I don't think you are racist, but I do think you are bigoted against people who are of the poor and less-fortunate ilk.

No, the limo comment really wasn't a joke. You may have thought it funny or clever, but it was a biting sardonic illustration of just how you feel about these people. The only thing missing was the <snort>.

You can bring up the robber or the child molester or whatever as having less of a value of life, and in those extremes I'd agree with you. But the tens of thousands people in New Orleans that you have all lumped together were most certainly not all robbers and child molesters. They were simply people that were trapped in a bad situation, many of no fault of their own, but simply because they were born there and cannot figure a way out of it all. Their life has value.

You say it's not about class, yet everything you post says otherwise (that's another reason "racist" never occurred to me). You say they put themselves in the position they were in, but that's patently not true for the vast majority of them. Some, sure, but not in the numbers you like to believe. Most are a product of their environment, and do not have the education or the opportunity or the ability to get out. If you think it's so easy for the poor to figure out how to get out from being poor and to start a new life, especially since both the environment and the government practically encourage it, I see a new life mission for you. You'll be famous 'round the world. But the solutions you're coming up with are just ridiculously unworkable. Just leave, walk out, OK, then what? No money, no education, no place to live. Yeah, I can see that being much better.

That's not even remotely close to what the Golden Rule means.

Good discussion......;)
 
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