Is It Really True That Truckers Can't Agree? Let's Try.

cubansammich

Not a Member
No one is really advocating more regulations per se.

Responding to DaveKC's points about the need for the public to understand what our trucking issues are, what if one of the three issues was mandatory driver's training? If carriers could not add a driver without say six months (or even three) of authentic driver's training, that would end the continual flow of cheap labor into the market, would it not? It would also be something the public would respond positivily to since it would make the roads safer, right?

And just maybe, if the roads came to be filled with truely trained drivers, the HOS nonsense might abate, at least a bit.

So, of the issues mentioned so far, is mandatory driver's training of six months (maybe three) a good issue?

Yeah it is being discussed. It's quite typical that old timers often want the rules and hoops for the next generation to be tougher than they had it. If you want support you need to take this off of the table up front. 6 months to drive a truck, gmafb it's not rocket surgery doods!
 

zorry

Veteran Expediter
It's not ROCKET SURGERY, DOODS !

I say train for six months, include an English class, and give a complimentary dictionary.
 

WanderngFool

Active Expediter
Largest crowd is correct, however you also need to be wary of the inevitable unintended consequences, of which there always are.

The law of unintended consequences is what happens when a simple system tries to regulate a complex system. The political system is simple, it operates with limited information (rational ignorance), short time horizons, low feedback, and poor and misaligned incentives. Society in contrast is a complex, evolving, high-feedback, incentive-driven system. When a simple system tries to regulate a complex system you often get unintended consequences, where well-meaning legislation often winds up hurting the parties it is designed to help.

Some unintended consequences are positive, like the sinking of ships in shallow water during war time created some magnificent reefs for undersea diversity, medieval policy of setting up large hunting reserves for the nobility has resulted in many large preserves of green space for parks, anticoagulant properties of pain killing aspirin prevents and mitigates heart attacks.

Some are negative, like Prohibition in the 1920s designed to suppress the alcohol trade and reduce consumption ended up concentrating the profits from illegal alcohol into a small number of hands, enabling the funding to dabble into other illegal organized crime activities. The War on Drugs does the same thing by concentrating drug profits into the cartels. Other examples include the CIA's covert funding of the Afghan Mujahideen, which directly contributed to the rise of Al Qaeda, the introduction of Kudzu as a means of ornamental ground cover and earthworks erosion control has resulted in a complete takeover of Kudzu in many parts of the South, forest fire prevention policies which have resulted in reduced forest diversity and increases mass fires, and dam building that destroys wet lands and makes floods more likely.

Some unintended consequences yield perverse results, like the installation of tall smokestacks to reduce pollution in local areas ended up spreaded pollution at high altitudes giving us acid rain, the draining of America's wetlands resulting in flash floods and season droughts, the DOT regulation requiring airlines to hold reservations and refund the ticket price without a penalty within 24 hours of booking the flight resulted in higher air fares across he board and in Spirit Airlines charging a $2 "Department of Transportation Unintended Consequence Fee" to each ticket.

The FMCSA's CSA was supposed to identify and eliminate unsafe drivers and carriers from the road, but the results are inverse to the actual crash statistics and have resulted in fear and overreaction in the marketplace, as well as carriers unfairly hit with higher insurance rates despite lower crash occurrences.

My favorite is the unintended consequences of the FMCSA HoS rules, designed to increase safety by getting truckers more rest, and decrease the number of trucks on the road, and has resulted in less rest for many truckers, and a marked increase in the number of trucks on the road since more trucks are now required to haul the same freight.

Not only will it be fought by shippers, it will be fought by anyone involved in business. That's why the Mexican Cross Border program, which no one in business is in favor of publicly, is supported by nearly everyone in business privately, since it lowers the wholesale costs of goods.

I really enjoyed reading this post. Good one! Thanks.
 

WanderngFool

Active Expediter
No one is really advocating more regulations per se. But if they are to come in some form or fashion anyway, then would you not want them written to the industry's benefit?
I should add, after reading through this, I think the goals are actually pretty close. I'm not seeing a huge disagreement.

But in the larger sense consider the fact that truckers are (in my opinion) about 80% - 90% conservative. Some are even the pointy hat types. For 30 years we've been hearing that "government is the problem, not the solution" and when the going gets tough truckers should suddenly look for a regulatory solution?

Actually it's a healthy and adult development and I applaud it, but the pivot is too quick and therefore it's not real.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Yeah it is being discussed. It's quite typical that old timers often want the rules and hoops for the next generation to be tougher than they had it. If you want support you need to take this off of the table up front. 6 months to drive a truck, gmafb it's not rocket surgery doods!

He also said "(maybe three)" That is the typical period of time to drive a truck via the community college route. I believe he is looking at a much broader long term picture. It has little to do with "old timers".
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
But in the larger sense consider the fact that truckers are (in my opinion) about 80% - 90% conservative. Some are even the pointy hat types. For 30 years we've been hearing that "government is the problem, not the solution" and when the going gets tough truckers should suddenly look for a regulatory solution?

Actually it's a healthy and adult development and I applaud it, but the pivot is too quick and therefore it's not real.

You answered your own question. "It has been thirty years" and nothing has happened. There is no part of changing something in this industry that would go quick. I don't believe anyone has that illusion.
 

zorry

Veteran Expediter
I was going to comment on how only a few seem interested in this.

If I counted correctly, 19 people have bothered to comment in just a few days.
That surprised me.

Two questions:
1) could,or should, this thread be posted on the Road Gorilla Site. It's a trucking issue more than just an expediting issue.

2) as a very old OOIDA member, wouldn't 100 or so people contacting them with intelligent thoughts on these issues be a more effective use of our time/money.
Why or how can we do it better ?
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I was going to comment on how only a few seem interested in this.

If I counted correctly, 19 people have bothered to comment in just a few days.
That surprised me.

Two questions:
1) could,or should, this thread be posted on the Road Gorilla Site. It's a trucking issue more than just an expediting issue.

2) as a very old OOIDA member, wouldn't 100 or so people contacting them with intelligent thoughts on these issues be a more effective use of our time/money.
Why or how can we do it better ?

It could be posted on another site. This is more of an exercise of ideas that currently haven't been tried. That is pretty much how anything worth while gets started. Some ideas may be good or bad, but we do know the current results of what has been tried.
Nothing more complicated than that.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
2) as a very old OOIDA member, wouldn't 100 or so people contacting them with intelligent thoughts on these issues be a more effective use of our time/money.
Why or how can we do it better ?

We would not do it better. We'd do it different. The political power that can be raised from the grass roots and applied for change exists in the grass roots. The idea is not to operate like beltway-oriented organizations (OOIDA, ATA, others). It is to rally enough people (voters) around a simple agenda in sufficient numbers to attract the attention of policy makers. This is not about annual dues, office buildings, court cases and Washington lobbyists. It's about large numbers of people who back an agenda bringing that agenda directly to their elected officals (not bureaucrats).
 

zorry

Veteran Expediter
Sounds reasonable.
As Dave mentioned, what we have now isn't working as well as we'd like.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Yeah it is being discussed. It's quite typical that old timers often want the rules and hoops for the next generation to be tougher than they had it. If you want support you need to take this off of the table up front. 6 months to drive a truck, gmafb it's not rocket surgery doods!

It is typical for the 'old timers' to think the newcomers have it easier, [and often, they do], but that's not what this is about.
We'd like to address a safety issue that FMCSA/DOT consistently overlook in their efforts to regulate us into safety: 3 weeks does not a safe truck driver make.
I agree that it's not rocket science, but judging by the many regulations already in place, and the penalties for violations [even simple, trivial every day human error in recordkeeping that can't possibly affect safety], the regulatory agencies think it's pretty complex. That being the case, we'd like to point out how safety can actually be improved: by better training of new drivers.
That would help a whole lot more than handing out violations for clerical errors, and accidents where the driver was clearly not at fault, and many other examples of the current insanity.
 

cubansammich

Not a Member
It is typical for the 'old timers' to think the newcomers have it easier, [and often, they do], but that's not what this is about.
We'd like to address a safety issue that FMCSA/DOT consistently overlook in their efforts to regulate us into safety: 3 weeks does not a safe truck driver make.
I agree that it's not rocket science, but judging by the many regulations already in place, and the penalties for violations [even simple, trivial every day human error in recordkeeping that can't possibly affect safety], the regulatory agencies think it's pretty complex. That being the case, we'd like to point out how safety can actually be improved: by better training of new drivers.
That would help a whole lot more than handing out violations for clerical errors, and accidents where the driver was clearly not at fault, and many other examples of the current insanity.
Why not get some good skill tests for older drivers as well then, anyone over 50 must do reaction time studies, and have a complete physical with an ekg, and maybe we should push for banning all distracted driving like smoking as well. Nah it's probably best just to require more regulations for other people. To get a CDL you have to take a written and driving test already, leave it alone. I swear truckers are their own worst enemy sometimes. Start out with an idea to stop some of the regs then promote more regs.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
I swear truckers are their own worst enemy sometimes.

Which is precisely why standards must be raised. Any fool can drive a truck and many fools do. If we want truck driving to be a profession, professional standards must be applied (higher expectations, continuing education, improved compensation, etc.) and entry standards must be raised.

Thank you for sharing your views, though. It is a preview of what can be expected when higher standards are advocated.
 
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Brisco

Expert Expediter
I swear truckers are their own worst enemy sometimes. Start out with an idea to stop some of the regs then promote more regs.

Honest to Gawd............I cannot believe I am actually honoring/agreeing with something Cubie here said.......

Which is precisely why standards must be raised. Any fool can drive a truck and many fools do. If we want truck driving to be a profession, professional standards must be applied (higher expectations, continuing education, improved compensation, etc.) and entry standards must be raised.

Thank you for sharing your views, though. It is a preview of what can be expected when higher standards are advocated.

Keeping up with ALL 7 Pages of Phils possible agenda here.............I will still keep my original opinion I stated way back on Page 1 - 2......Phil is bringing up/delving into issues he really has no real life experience in. (No...It's NOT an "Emotions" Opinion Zorry.....It's a Keen Observation Opinion that comes with keeping up with Phil for many many years)

And......again........one of my favorite sayings around here........I'm not peeing on your parade....

But......this whole topic of discussion will get no further than the 7 or 8 here that are really discussing it in depth............No matter how far Phil and the others believes it could go.............
 

zorry

Veteran Expediter
Sounds like Phil thinks trucking should be like the old days...

When kids would proudly say " My paws a trucker !"

The last year of teaching, after my wife had given notice that she would join me on the road, she was in a parent-teacher conference that included the principal.
The students mother told the kid why he should make an effort in school.
" you wanna be stuck being a truck driver all your life ?" was the best the mother could come up with if the kid didn't want to study.

We laugh about that often. And yet it's sad in a way.
 

Wolverine

Seasoned Expediter
Sounds like Phil thinks trucking should be like the old days...

When kids would proudly say " My paws a trucker !"

The last year of teaching, after my wife had given notice that she would join me on the road, she was in a parent-teacher conference that included the principal.
The students mother told the kid why he should make an effort in school.
" you wanna be stuck being a truck driver all your life ?" was the best the mother could come up with if the kid didn't want to study.

We laugh about that often. And yet it's sad in a way.

Yeah, but teachers have a soft spot in their hearts for us lowly expedite drivers!

Both of my wives AND my fiancee are retired teachers...
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Sounds like Phil thinks trucking should be like the old days...

When kids would proudly say " My paws a trucker !"

The last year of teaching, after my wife had given notice that she would join me on the road, she was in a parent-teacher conference that included the principal.
The students mother told the kid why he should make an effort in school.
" you wanna be stuck being a truck driver all your life ?" was the best the mother could come up with if the kid didn't want to study.

We laugh about that often. And yet it's sad in a way.

Kinda like a stale sammich.:cool:
 

cubansammich

Not a Member
Which is precisely why standards must be raised. Any fool can drive a truck and many fools do. If we want truck driving to be a profession, professional standards must be applied (higher expectations, continuing education, improved compensation, etc.) and entry standards must be raised.

Thank you for sharing your views, though. It is a preview of what can be expected when higher standards are advocated.
You are advocating higher standards for other people but not for yourself. This is NOT even a skilled trade.

Pretty much nailed it Phil any fool can drive a truck. Well almost, it takes a bit of common sense and a decent work ethic but that's about it.

Only a fool would start a conversation about over regulation then promote more regulation. You want continued REQUIRED education? Professional standards lol truck driving is not really a profession it is a business or job depending on how you go about it. Driving a tractor trailer takes a bit more skill and you are tested prior to getting your CDL as it is.

You are advocating keeping rates up by making it harder to drive, sounds much like the old tradesmen, union type of mindset to me. It is obvious what you want to do, prop yourself up while keeping others down.

Tractor trailer, over sized flatbed and hazmat loads should require extra certification, oh wait I think they already do.

Nobody has commented on more regulation for older drivers? Did you miss that or does that hit too close to home? What about requiring vehicle ownership for contractor status, otherwise you are an employee? I like that one! That one will keep these other fleet owners from throwing a bunch of newbs out here driving down the rates. You have trucks that you want driven then hire people for that job. You want to be a contractor, buy the equipment to be a contractor.

I think too many people are seeing those professional driver signs at truck stops and getting an inflated ego over what we really do. We are as much professional drivers as cabbies are, in much the same way as the kid as Micky Dee's is a professional hamburger flipper. Again this is not a skilled trade for 90% or more of us.
 
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