I still like Truckers for Sanity, because safety should go without saying.
Just saying, lol.
Is It Really True That Truckers Can't Agree? Let's Try.
- Thread starter ATeam
- Start date
I still like Truckers for Sanity, because safety should go without saying.
Just saying, lol.
I still like Truckers for Sanity, because safety should go without saying.
Just saying, lol.
That certainly applies as well.
It takes time to build a grass-roots organization, but also, in today's hyper-connected world, less time and less money than ever before, if you are right on the issues and have credibility. I'm most familiar with what we did in Minnesota, but there are dozens of examples of organizations that came out of nowhere, used the internet to organize and went on to have a profound impact.
ATA and OOIDA have done their thing for years but we still need driver's training, fully compensated drivers and compliant drivers operating under fair and reasonable rules. Since those results have not been produced by established trucking organizations, it falls to the grass roots to make it happen.
Political power exists in two forms; money and votes. If you don't have the money, get the votes.
ATA and OOIDA have done their thing for years but we still need driver's training, fully compensated drivers and compliant drivers operating under fair and reasonable rules. Since those results have not been produced by established trucking organizations, it falls to the grass roots to make it happen.
Political power exists in two forms; money and votes. If you don't have the money, get the votes.
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Largest crowd is correct, however you also need to be wary of the inevitable unintended consequences, of which there always are.
The law of unintended consequences is what happens when a simple system tries to regulate a complex system. The political system is simple, it operates with limited information (rational ignorance), short time horizons, low feedback, and poor and misaligned incentives. Society in contrast is a complex, evolving, high-feedback, incentive-driven system. When a simple system tries to regulate a complex system you often get unintended consequences, where well-meaning legislation often winds up hurting the parties it is designed to help.
Some unintended consequences are positive, like the sinking of ships in shallow water during war time created some magnificent reefs for undersea diversity, medieval policy of setting up large hunting reserves for the nobility has resulted in many large preserves of green space for parks, anticoagulant properties of pain killing aspirin prevents and mitigates heart attacks.
Some are negative, like Prohibition in the 1920s designed to suppress the alcohol trade and reduce consumption ended up concentrating the profits from illegal alcohol into a small number of hands, enabling the funding to dabble into other illegal organized crime activities. The War on Drugs does the same thing by concentrating drug profits into the cartels. Other examples include the CIA's covert funding of the Afghan Mujahideen, which directly contributed to the rise of Al Qaeda, the introduction of Kudzu as a means of ornamental ground cover and earthworks erosion control has resulted in a complete takeover of Kudzu in many parts of the South, forest fire prevention policies which have resulted in reduced forest diversity and increases mass fires, and dam building that destroys wet lands and makes floods more likely.
Some unintended consequences yield perverse results, like the installation of tall smokestacks to reduce pollution in local areas ended up spreaded pollution at high altitudes giving us acid rain, the draining of America's wetlands resulting in flash floods and season droughts, the DOT regulation requiring airlines to hold reservations and refund the ticket price without a penalty within 24 hours of booking the flight resulted in higher air fares across he board and in Spirit Airlines charging a $2 "Department of Transportation Unintended Consequence Fee" to each ticket.
The FMCSA's CSA was supposed to identify and eliminate unsafe drivers and carriers from the road, but the results are inverse to the actual crash statistics and have resulted in fear and overreaction in the marketplace, as well as carriers unfairly hit with higher insurance rates despite lower crash occurrences.
My favorite is the unintended consequences of the FMCSA HoS rules, designed to increase safety by getting truckers more rest, and decrease the number of trucks on the road, and has resulted in less rest for many truckers, and a marked increase in the number of trucks on the road since more trucks are now required to haul the same freight.
The law of unintended consequences is what happens when a simple system tries to regulate a complex system. The political system is simple, it operates with limited information (rational ignorance), short time horizons, low feedback, and poor and misaligned incentives. Society in contrast is a complex, evolving, high-feedback, incentive-driven system. When a simple system tries to regulate a complex system you often get unintended consequences, where well-meaning legislation often winds up hurting the parties it is designed to help.
Some unintended consequences are positive, like the sinking of ships in shallow water during war time created some magnificent reefs for undersea diversity, medieval policy of setting up large hunting reserves for the nobility has resulted in many large preserves of green space for parks, anticoagulant properties of pain killing aspirin prevents and mitigates heart attacks.
Some are negative, like Prohibition in the 1920s designed to suppress the alcohol trade and reduce consumption ended up concentrating the profits from illegal alcohol into a small number of hands, enabling the funding to dabble into other illegal organized crime activities. The War on Drugs does the same thing by concentrating drug profits into the cartels. Other examples include the CIA's covert funding of the Afghan Mujahideen, which directly contributed to the rise of Al Qaeda, the introduction of Kudzu as a means of ornamental ground cover and earthworks erosion control has resulted in a complete takeover of Kudzu in many parts of the South, forest fire prevention policies which have resulted in reduced forest diversity and increases mass fires, and dam building that destroys wet lands and makes floods more likely.
Some unintended consequences yield perverse results, like the installation of tall smokestacks to reduce pollution in local areas ended up spreaded pollution at high altitudes giving us acid rain, the draining of America's wetlands resulting in flash floods and season droughts, the DOT regulation requiring airlines to hold reservations and refund the ticket price without a penalty within 24 hours of booking the flight resulted in higher air fares across he board and in Spirit Airlines charging a $2 "Department of Transportation Unintended Consequence Fee" to each ticket.
The FMCSA's CSA was supposed to identify and eliminate unsafe drivers and carriers from the road, but the results are inverse to the actual crash statistics and have resulted in fear and overreaction in the marketplace, as well as carriers unfairly hit with higher insurance rates despite lower crash occurrences.
My favorite is the unintended consequences of the FMCSA HoS rules, designed to increase safety by getting truckers more rest, and decrease the number of trucks on the road, and has resulted in less rest for many truckers, and a marked increase in the number of trucks on the road since more trucks are now required to haul the same freight.
Not only will it be fought by shippers, it will be fought by anyone involved in business. That's why the Mexican Cross Border program, which no one in business is in favor of publicly, is supported by nearly everyone in business privately, since it lowers the wholesale costs of goods.
Is that a reason to not try?
No doubt it will take a delicate approach. ATA and OOIDA have done some good things as an example, but alot of things certainly have went beyond their reach.
There will be or possibly be unintended consequences, that is the reason to keep the primary objective as simple as possible.
There will be or possibly be unintended consequences, that is the reason to keep the primary objective as simple as possible.
Absolutely not. I said you need to be wary of it, not averse to it. But like Dave said, the primary objective needs to be kept as simple as possible, if for no other reason that it can be thought through to guard against and possibly mitigate the unintended consequences. The more unintended consequences you can anticipate, the better.
The HoS regulations that introduced the 34-hour restart (2004, I think it was) allowed companies to monitor just how much home time their drivers were getting, and many of them began to allow their drivers to be home only for those 34 hours. Unintended consequences.
Another unintended consequence from those regulations was (and still is) a lack of parking. Prior to the new regulations, a driver could split up his break time thereby utilizing available parking in a better fashion. Since most trucker’s days usually start in the mornings when warehouses and businesses open, usually between 4-7 am, it put truckers into the truck stops between 6-9 pm, a 14-hour day demanded by the new regulations. This intensified the lack of parking issue found especially near large cities and the coastal areas. Unintended consequences again.
The new and improved regulations requiring the two 1 AM to 5 AM periods have already had the unintended consequence of having even more trucks on the road during the early morning rush hour periods, increasing the drive time it takes Joe Public to get to work each day, and increasing rush hour accidents. And with the propensity for the 14-hour clock to start at 5AM on Monday morning now, and for the next few days for those restarting, we find that parking at 7 PM is nearly non-existent in most places.
So they'll fight - are we truck drivers or mice?
Besides, who knows the issues better than we do?
With ATeam and Turtle coaching, we can't lose, lol.
I'm having fun kicking the ideas around as Diane and I pass time over the long weekend waiting for a Tuesday pickup. But remember, we are on our way out of the trucking business, partly because of the increasing regulations.
zorry
Veteran Expediter
Out of trucking, you'll have more time to devote to your new hobby.
Another unintended consequence.
Driver turnover is up this quarter, and it's mainly because good drivers are exiting the business. Also, because more trucks are needed to haul the same freight, this also puts pressure on driver turnover.
That part is not happening, at least not in a way we have observed on the road and over a number of Monday mornings now. There was talk of it before the new regs went into effect but it did not develop.
I dunno. Just 10 days ago or so when I was there, I read an article in the Philadelphia Inquirer where it talked about the increased driving time of morning rush hour in and around Philly specifically and the East Coast in general (it also mentioned Atlanta and Chicago, in addition to the major east coast cities), where it offered up several possible reasons for the sudden increase in driving time (14 minutes, IIRC) it takes to get to work. The posited several reasons, including more vehicles on the road in general, road construction (though they noted few projects had recently begun), and increased accidents. In recent weeks I have observed parking lots in truck stops becoming full by 8 PM most nights, as they were in New Jersey, Maryland, Virginia and South Carolina.
It has always been the case that East Coast truck stops fill up in the early evening. Interested in the effects, I have been keeping a close eye on changes in truck parking since the new regs went into effect. The one change I noticed and commented on several times here in the Open Forum is truck stops filling up on Friday nights when they used to have many open spaces before.
Several times, I have been awake and watching the truck stops empty out in the morning. At that time of day, they look no different now than they did before the new regs went into effect. It's not like every truck is waiting until 5:00 a.m. to leave. They flow out as before. Also note that trucks operate on different time zones. 5:00 a.m. on the East Coast is 4:00 a.m. for Diane and me because we log on Central Time.
Your newspaper article cited a number of possible factors including more vehicles on the road. When the economy crashed, there were fewer vehicles on the road. As the economy recovers, that number naturally increases. But regarding an early morning surge of trucks coming onto the road because of the new regs, I'm not seeing it.
I would have liked to seen it. Believing the new regs are bad for truckers, I would have loved to cite evidence that the regs are producing the kind of truck surge you mention. Having such evidence would have helped me make my case that the new regs should be abolished.
But facts are facts and I have to go with the truth. It is simply not happening that the new regs are motivating truckers to flow onto the roads at 5:00 a.m. in numbers higher than before; at least not in the cities and mornings I have observed in our travels.
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cubansammich
Not a Member
Bad idea, work to get rid of burdensome regulations. Don't get them going on ideas for new regs. It may start as training for newbs but will likely morph into a bunch of worthless classes and seminars for everyone.
The function of government is not to write laws and then eliminate them. They exist only to write new laws. Look at all the ones we have now. They have to keep writing new ones to justify their existence. Because of that, if new ones are going to inevitably written, better to have them where we benefit.
cubansammich
Not a Member
Then just call yourself truckers for more regulations if that's your goal.
Wonder why truckers can't agree? Read this thread, it starts with an idea of working towards the common goal of limiting regs and comes to the conclusion that we should advocate more regs. Laughably idiotic logic at work here.
It's not in every city and morning in my travels, either. But that doesn't make my observances any less factual than yours.
I have also observed, and confirmed (at least at PFJ locations) the trend of shower occupancy having risen dramatically in the hours between 3 AM and 5 AM, so much so that at many locations employee scheduling has been changed to accommodate the increased demand in the hours before 5 AM. I have also observed that the wait is dramatically less to get a shower between 7 AM and 9 AM than it was before the new HoS went into effect. Most any PFJ manager can confirm the trends.
No one is really advocating more regulations per se. But if they are to come in some form or fashion anyway, then would you not want them written to the industry's benefit?
I should add, after reading through this, I think the goals are actually pretty close. I'm not seeing a huge disagreement.
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pearlpro
Expert Expediter
"WE" May not be able to affect the laws on the books now, maybe those in the regulatory process, but lets concentrate on seeing a true DRIVERS/TRUCKER/O/O Block of well informed, demonstrated safe and compliant people who can be a part of the regulatory process. A seat at the table should be the result, of safe, compliant, well seasoned, experienced men and women who speak well and are informed, that can represent the ideas and efforts we want to see affected.
Why not take a RULE, and dissect it and show exactly how it works in the workplace, the effect, the added time, the detention, the equipment costs, medical costs, and then the added cost to an economy of business OUR economy....
I am happy to see such constructive ideas being shared here....when the Cream rises to the top, things will get done and we will be respected for it not ignored. Your ideas and efforts are for the common good, as I said they didnt break these unions because they didnt like Unions, they had Political power and they voted as a block, that block was huge and could swing an election, we may not reach that kind of effort, but if we can have effect on one thing, educate and get representation thats considered REAL WORLD versus Statistics we can bring things to that table.
Detention pay certainly is a top priority for expeditors, Ive been a victim of that quite a few times, and to get 25 dollars and sit for four hours is wrong, if you get 5 truck inspection in 3 months and never once get a sticker, thats a waste of resources and tax money, FMCSA and its Safety mandates that are taken from a bean counter and never once talked to a driver/trucker thats wrong,,,,adding medical changes that force drivers into MONEY MILLS DOT CLINICS THAT DO A COMPLETE PHYSICAL IN 10 MINUTES 150 DOLLARS THANK YOU VERY MUCH.....Then send you to the sleep apnea clinic because the Dr Was too short to see clearly down your throat !!!!
Lets start a page, get it started, Im in, and Ill gladly write, call do whats neccessary to get us the representation we deserve, and earn every day, FOR ALL OF US.....
Why not take a RULE, and dissect it and show exactly how it works in the workplace, the effect, the added time, the detention, the equipment costs, medical costs, and then the added cost to an economy of business OUR economy....
I am happy to see such constructive ideas being shared here....when the Cream rises to the top, things will get done and we will be respected for it not ignored. Your ideas and efforts are for the common good, as I said they didnt break these unions because they didnt like Unions, they had Political power and they voted as a block, that block was huge and could swing an election, we may not reach that kind of effort, but if we can have effect on one thing, educate and get representation thats considered REAL WORLD versus Statistics we can bring things to that table.
Detention pay certainly is a top priority for expeditors, Ive been a victim of that quite a few times, and to get 25 dollars and sit for four hours is wrong, if you get 5 truck inspection in 3 months and never once get a sticker, thats a waste of resources and tax money, FMCSA and its Safety mandates that are taken from a bean counter and never once talked to a driver/trucker thats wrong,,,,adding medical changes that force drivers into MONEY MILLS DOT CLINICS THAT DO A COMPLETE PHYSICAL IN 10 MINUTES 150 DOLLARS THANK YOU VERY MUCH.....Then send you to the sleep apnea clinic because the Dr Was too short to see clearly down your throat !!!!
Lets start a page, get it started, Im in, and Ill gladly write, call do whats neccessary to get us the representation we deserve, and earn every day, FOR ALL OF US.....