Big Truck I work on Hino trucks. I'll answer any questions I know the answers to.

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greasytshirt

Moderator
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Mechanic
During this episode after dealership verified turbo was good and fuel related, put in a Hino filter with same result.

The print out has a cover page with a header of "Troubleshooting report" then has VIN, Work date, Operator right below it and then Vehicle Information. This report was taken two days prior to episode during the PM. Do not know if they pulled codes when they received it this last time. Unsure how the PSI test done or tested.

DTC information: (order listed)
U1001
P0404
P1401
P0500
P0704

The Month, Day, Hours, Minutes columns on all the codes are 0, Year is 1985 on all. I'm not sure if this is a default setting. At work start and At the end of work are 0 for these columns.

Order of Freeze frame information:

P0404 EGR value 1 sticking (187 coolant temp, 1868 rpm, 54mph)

P1401 EGR value 2 sticking (183 coolant temp, 1706 rpm, 52mph)

P0500 Malfunction of speed sensor (Low)
Coolant temperature : 178
Engine revolution: 2211
Injection Quantity: 91.02 mm3/st
Final accelerator opening: 80
Speed: 0 mph (zero mph)

P0704 Malfunction of clutch switch
Coolant Temperature: 183
Engine revolution: 747
Injection quantity: 11.55

U1001 Malfunction of CAN communication (vehicle)
Engine coolant temperature: 129

Can I safely assume the listing order in the information portion is the order they occurred? For instance is the order the two EGR first then speed sensor, then clutch switch, then CAN?

Looking at the speed sensor rpm, only time the engine rpm would go that high in neutral would be during emissions testing in July. Jaw dropped when I saw a Maximum Revolution of 3936.5 rpm in the "Information of Protected Data" Arizona emissions does a "snap test" and get the opacity reading at the tailpipe. Although I'm guessing speed sensor fault wouldn't pick up speed while vehicle is moving.

The clutch switch fault, that was last summer also. Whenever the plastic tightening nut loosens up, the truck doesn't start, no start as turn key and only get dash. I would sometimes get it to start by activating the switch with my finger and truck in neutral. Have had this happen before and have had a new one in a box inside truck for three years. I originally, three years ago, was going to remove the "old" one and noticed this. After securing it in place, the truck not starting went away.

There are no P0087/P0088 codes stored. Unsure if there is a maximum amount of codes stored though as I already have five. Again, I don't know if they pulled a dx report this episode. It's something I'll need to find out.

Initially when the episode happened I was thinking something with the turbocharger not making boost. But was no black smoke at all. It was whiteish blue close to grey. Didn't see a P0045 or U0073 listed. Dealership mentioned it was not the turbo. Turbo related info from report is Air flow sensor characteristic value = 1 and Meter correction coefficient = 1



Quite the concise trouble shooting flow chart of sorts. THANK YOU SO MUCH!
This is something I'll have to double check myself if new life is breathed into the truck. Stored values of number of overruns and overheat are zero, Max coolant temp 228, Max fuel temp 180. A thought to something you had posted a while back about headgasket and #6 cylinder.
Could this be something of a function of:
-How the coolant flows through the head and warms up, warmer at back than front
-Residual heat generated by turbo elbow transferring to exhaust manifold #5 and #6 runners thus keeping back cylinders marginally warmer than front.


Homework:
-Get scv test done and pass on results
-Get current dx report
-Stalk Greasytshirt, find out Virgina shop location, this man needs some free lunches. So much information and assistance freely given. Saved people lots of money, downtime, parts, headaches and headache relief.


Occasionally the EGR valve(s) fail. Usually they stop moving through their entire stroke. Sometimes the electrical portion develops a fault. This will set a CAN code (which I don't remember right now, but I don't think it's one you've listed). If they stop moving through their whole stroke, they can sometimes be cleaned. Once the solenoid is removed, the plunger is revealed. Tons of crud can build up inside. It can be scraped out or wire brushed.

If both valves are stuck in a very open position, I could see that causing a low rpm smoke/low power/poor running condition, but I haven't encountered that in person.

The EGR cooler flex pipe crack is an issue. If exhaust gas leaks through, this is energy being lost that would otherwise be used to spin the turbo. More often, the flange that bolts to the exhaust manifold breaks free from the rest of the EGR pipe. After a lot of thorough cleaning, it can be welded back together. I imagine that can be done with MIG and regular steel wire, but since it's stainless steel I TIG weld them back on using a backing flux and stainless filler rod. The EGR coolers (on all models) are of great quality, aside from the occasional flange breaking off. I've yet to see an EGR cooler fail in a way that allows coolant to be consumed by the engine.

P0500-This occasionally pops up on trucks that desperately needed injectors a year ago. When the injectors have utterly, completely failed, the engine's rpm is all over the place. Huge spikes and dips in what's supposed to be a smooth line. The ecu can sometimes interpret that as an engine speed sensor fault, because the data doesn't make sense.


Mostly unrelated anecdote:
A new coworker was doing his first set of injectors and a rocker box gasket. Getting some of the stuff unhooked at the rear of the engine is a challenge because of limited room, and he accidently pulled the two wires out of the camshaft position sensor connector. No big deal, put two terminals on and plugged them in. Later, after the job was done, he fired it up and the engine is running like dog doo. Terrible. Some poking and prodding later, and some head scratching, he switched the position of the two leads at the cam position sensor. The engine instantly ran correctly.

Another interesting footnote: If one was trying to do a backyard version of a cylinder balance test (by using a Cummins blocking tool on the fuel rail, or even by using DX), and the ecu is messing up the results by changing the cylinder correction in an attempt to get it to idle correctly, unplugging the cam position sensor will remove the ecu's ability to adjust individual injectors and a true reading will result.


SCV testing: The SCV, aka suction control valve, aka fuel pressure regulator, is the cylindrical looking thing on the top front of the fuel pump. It has an electrical connector. It's failure leads to weird idling, surging, P0087/P0088. None of this sounds like what you are dealing with. However, this test is also used to evaluate injectors on trucks made from 05-10.
A recording is made of Engine RPM, Coolant temp, injection quantity, Final value of pump current target (target scv current), scv driving current value (actual scv current, but not obtainable on 05-07 trucks), Target common rail pressure, actual common rail pressure.

A completely warmed up engine is allowed to idle for one minute, run at 1500 rpm for one minute, then the accelerator is mashed to the floor and held there for 5 seconds, returned to idle for 5 seconds, mashed to the floor again for five cycles.

What we're looking for is smooth rpm at 750 and 1500 rpm, a relatively smooth scv current value with actual current following target, rail pressure target and actual being very close to each other, injection quantity staying above 5-6 mm3 at 1500 (higher the better, with new injectors around ten, and ultra fragged ones going below 5).

If the scv current is all over the place and target doesn't meet actual, but the rail pressure is pretty stable, then the scv is probably scrap. If scv current is stable, but the pump cannot reach target or is very slow to do so, it's dumpster ballast (provided that there are no fuel restrictions or air leaks in the fuel supply).

So lets say that scv is good, but rail pressure is pathetic. A few things to check before condemning the pump: uninterrupted fuel supply. Occasionally you'll catch me doing laps around the block with a jerry can ratchet-strapped to the truck's steps. In that case, I've got the pump hooked directly to the jerry can, no filter or anything. I'm ruling out every single part of the fuel supply. If the truck runs great on the can, but has problems hooked up correctly, then I know there is a supply side problem. It is important to try things like this when one isn't totally sure where the problem is.

If rail pressure is still pathetic on the can, the rail pressure limiter valve should be checked for leakage. The hard line is removed from it and plugged, then the truck is run at wide open throttle. If anything more than a drop or two of fuel comes out of the rail limiter, it has failed. Isuzu trucks like to blow these, they set something like a P0193 Large fuel leak detected code, or something like that.

Edit: I've never seen a rail pressure sensor fail. I'm sure it happens, but that's never where I've ended up while troubleshooting.

Interesting anecdote: Isuzu NPRs with common rail seem to run just fine with a Hino rail limiter, not that I have any first hand knowledge of that or anything.



I can go on and on and on, but what I really want is that .txt file. Like, before 5pm on Friday.

As far as my location is concerned: PM me.
 
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greasytshirt

Moderator
Staff member
Mechanic
I can't sell it I just bought it and it's replacing my F550 6.0L straight truck what a big change to having power to no power

If it doesn't have one, you can try one of those cab mounted air dam things. They help a little. You're still going to wish it had more oomph, but I don't think much can be done.

Totally unhelpful answer: Put some good speakers in it, and get some classical music CDs. I like Frederic Chopin.
 

twinbulls

Rookie Expediter
Need help .... I run tow trucks and put plenty of miles on them
I have a couple Hino 258 LP Great trucks !! love them !!
On one 2007 257 LP almost 500,000 miles
we replaced radiator and now after hour of driving it burps and over heats ...
runs perfect seems it builds pressure and burps out a quart or little more and alarm goes off...
we changed thermostat to ...
local hino shop is backed up for a week or two....
People pointed at injector cup ?
Egr ?
water pump?

need any help ideas ..... I cant be down another truck .....

Thanks
 

twinbulls

Rookie Expediter
another question ..is there a way to delete the EGR cooler??? on my 2007 Hino 258?
Just asking as we deleted egr on most of our Fords and dodges...
 

greasytshirt

Moderator
Staff member
Mechanic
another question ..is there a way to delete the EGR cooler??? on my 2007 Hino 258?
Just asking as we deleted egr on most of our Fords and dodges...

Not without it punishing your effort. Is there a reason you want to do this? The EGR coolers rarely give a problem. Occasionally an EGR valve takes a dump, sometimes they can be cleaned. Occasionally the flange on the pipe that attaches to the exhaust manifold breaks, but it can be welded back on. They generally break because of missing hardware somewhere.
 

greasytshirt

Moderator
Staff member
Mechanic
Need help .... I run tow trucks and put plenty of miles on them
I have a couple Hino 258 LP Great trucks !! love them !!
On one 2007 257 LP almost 500,000 miles
we replaced radiator and now after hour of driving it burps and over heats ...
runs perfect seems it builds pressure and burps out a quart or little more and alarm goes off...
we changed thermostat to ...
local hino shop is backed up for a week or two....
People pointed at injector cup ?
Egr ?
water pump?

need any help ideas ..... I cant be down another truck .....

Thanks

An injector cup is possible, but there's no good way of testing them.
I have never seen an EGR cooler cause this. The cores are very well made.
The oil cooler can leak coolant like a sieve.
The head gasket can leak coolant like a sieve. Left rear corner of engine, in the 'nook', it'll leak externally.
The carbon seals in the head gasket can leak, putting combustion gas in the cooling system.
Under certain conditions, the water pump can actually pull atmospheric air into the cooling system.
The cooling systems sometimes have a hard time burping. This kind of what yours sounds like it's doing, since it sounds like it was Doing fine before the radiator (correct?).


Here's what I'd do. Top it off with coolant, fill the overflow bottle. Run the engine until the thermostat opens, rev it up a few times then shut it off and walk away. When it cools, it can pull a large quantity of coolant out of the overflow if it managed to burp. If that doesn't help...

Look at the water pump weep hole. Is there any evidence of coolant residue? If so, replace water pump. Pulling air through the pump is possible when the carbon seal has just started to fail. If there's residue on the weep hole, then the conditions exist for air to enter.

If the water pump looks fine, get a combustion gas test kit. This will differentiate between combustion gas and atmospheric air.

If it's combustion gas, replace the head gasket and all the injector cups. Reseal the oil cooler while you're at it, whether it's leaking or not. Use Permatex Right Stuff RTV. It's better than factory. Replace the three 'D' rings between the cooler and block with new ones.

If it's not combustion gas, replace the water pump. The first one is fun. Gotta take off the harmonic balancer. Get a 55 gallon drum, throw an old couch cushion or something on top of it. Remove the CAC hoses and upper radiator hoses. Remove the fan shroud ring bolts. Take the top nuts off of the diagonal radiator support bars. This will allow the radiator and fan shroud to move forward maybe six inches, which makes getting the fan off a lot easier, then you can fit an impact down in there to get the balancer bolts off. The bolts torque to...IDK, I posted it in here somewhere. 17mm, 12pt socket required. The EGR cooler and thermostat housing also have to come off. Be wary of breaking the three EGR flange bolts. If you do, don't even bother with an easy-out. Don't heat it with a torch either, the cast iron will get so hard that it'll mince any tap you stick in there to clean the threads up. If you break a bolt, drill it out big enough to fit a 1/4" die grinder carbide burr in there, then slowly cut the bolt out, wider and wider, until you can literally unwind what's left of the bolt's thread out of the manifold's threads.

This is why I have a $350 set of molybdenum alloy drill bits.


Have fun!
 
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coalminer

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Ever had the little primer pump on the filter housing go bad? I changed my filter today like I have done several times, and when it came time to prime the new filter, I pumped until my hands were sore and only had a little fuel in the filter. I had to fill the filter up manually and then I was able to get some fuel out of the vent. Took a few seconds of cranking to start after that which never happened before either.

Changed the batteries today too and only snapped one of the bolts that hold the step on, and when I got the batteries out, they were interstates.....
Found a Napa 1/2 mile, had to lug the batteries down the road and back, I got my exercise for the day.....
 

greasytshirt

Moderator
Staff member
Mechanic
Those pumps die on isuzus sort of often. Sometimes they fail in a way that restricts fuel flow too.
 

coalminer

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Those pumps die on isuzus sort of often. Sometimes they fail in a way that restricts fuel flow too.

So is there any reason to replace it or just make sure the filter is full like I did?

PS my oil leak that I have been dealing with, that was told it is the head gasket, I see where it is leaking down the front of the engine, which is why I thought the front main seal was bad. I'm not sure if it's the head gasket or the rocker box that is leaking, might try to remove the egr cooler one day to see which is leaking.
 

greasytshirt

Moderator
Staff member
Mechanic
So is there any reason to replace it or just make sure the filter is full like I did?

PS my oil leak that I have been dealing with, that was told it is the head gasket, I see where it is leaking down the front of the engine, which is why I thought the front main seal was bad. I'm not sure if it's the head gasket or the rocker box that is leaking, might try to remove the egr cooler one day to see which is leaking.

Filling the fuel filter is fine. I'd replace the primer pump if its malfunction bothers you, or if there's a loss of power traced back to it.

The head gaskets almost always leak oil on the right rear side, or sometimes right behind the turbo, or both. Anywhere else and I'd suspect it's the rocker box gasket. Actually seeing it leak is sometimes a challenge, as you know.
 

twinbulls

Rookie Expediter
Yes I run these trucks and that pump has causes plenty of problems... sucks air, leaks fuel to get by add fuel to filter but change out ASAP....
Unless you want to pay the TOWMAN.... oh thats me ....
 

twinbulls

Rookie Expediter
An injector cup is possible, but there's no good way of testing them.
I have never seen an EGR cooler cause this. The cores are very well made.
The oil cooler can leak coolant like a sieve.
The head gasket can leak coolant like a sieve. Left rear corner of engine, in the 'nook', it'll leak externally.
The carbon seals in the head gasket can leak, putting combustion gas in the cooling system.
Under certain conditions, the water pump can actually pull atmospheric air into the cooling system.
The cooling systems sometimes have a hard time burping. This kind of what yours sounds like it's doing, since it sounds like it was Doing fine before the radiator (correct?).


Here's what I'd do. Top it off with coolant, fill the overflow bottle. Run the engine until the thermostat opens, rev it up a few times then shut it off and walk away. When it cools, it can pull a large quantity of coolant out of the overflow if it managed to burp. If that doesn't help...

Look at the water pump weep hole. Is there any evidence of coolant residue? If so, replace water pump. Pulling air through the pump is possible when the carbon seal has just started to fail. If there's residue on the weep hole, then the conditions exist for air to enter.

If the water pump looks fine, get a combustion gas test kit. This will differentiate between combustion gas and atmospheric air.

If it's combustion gas, replace the head gasket and all the injector cups. Reseal the oil cooler while you're at it, whether it's leaking or not. Use Permatex Right Stuff RTV. It's better than factory. Replace the three 'D' rings between the cooler and block with new ones.

If it's not combustion gas, replace the water pump. The first one is fun. Gotta take off the harmonic balancer. Get a 55 gallon drum, throw an old couch cushion or something on top of it. Remove the CAC hoses and upper radiator hoses. Remove the fan shroud ring bolts. Take the top nuts off of the diagonal radiator support bars. This will allow the radiator and fan shroud to move forward maybe six inches, which makes getting the fan off a lot easier, then you can fit an impact down in there to get the balancer bolts off. The bolts torque to...IDK, I posted it in here somewhere. 17mm, 12pt socket required. The EGR cooler and thermostat housing also have to come off. Be wary of breaking the three EGR flange bolts. If you do, don't even bother with an easy-out. Don't heat it with a torch either, the cast iron will get so hard that it'll mince any tap you stick in there to clean the threads up. If you break a bolt, drill it out big enough to fit a 1/4" die grinder carbide burr in there, then slowly cut the bolt out, wider and wider, until you can literally unwind what's left of the bolt's thread out of the manifold's threads.

This is why I have a $350 set of molybdenum alloy drill bits.


Have fun!


Thanks for the insight ...... I was hoping for a easy fix .... I did buy the water pump but might be to much work for my guys , might have to wait til Hino shop has a open bay

Oh why delete the egr cooler ?? they want $995 just for the part ....
 

twinbulls

Rookie Expediter
We did the combustion test,it was ok not exhaust gas ,cant really see the water pump but will look closer ...
it only burps does NOT suck from overflow..
 

greasytshirt

Moderator
Staff member
Mechanic
We did the combustion test,it was ok not exhaust gas ,cant really see the water pump but will look closer ...
it only burps does NOT suck from overflow..

I guess I'd add a radiator cap to the list.

Look at bottom of water pump from driver's side. If you have a small mirror on a stick, it might help. Or a borescope. It's really difficult to see. If you are running Hino Pink or Blue coolant, both will leave an easy-to-see crust built up around any point where coolant exits and then evaporates. They probably didn't do that on purpose, but it's a nice feature.

One time I ran into one that tricked me. Combustion gas test came back negative 3-4 times in a row. Water pump was leaking, replaced it, but bubbles still showed up in the cooling system. A coworker attached the combustion gas tester to the overflow bottle spill tube after it had been running for a while (to displace the air in the overflow bottle with whatever was coming out of the engine). It tested positive after a few seconds. Head gasket.

Maybe on some early ones it'll run with egr delete without de-rating the power, but that depends on software level (and there's little description attached to software updates, and it's an act of god to get an earlier file). Figure on a permanent check engine light. No one makes anything to piggyback the ecu, from what I understand. The EGR valves are on the CAN, and the ecu recognizes pretty quickly if anything funny is going on.

But if you figure it out, you can make some money!

This is going to be nearly impossible to accomplish on an 11 and later truck, just in case anyone is wondering.
 
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greasytshirt

Moderator
Staff member
Mechanic
Greetings everyone.

I have a 2005 268 6 speed with 479,460 miles on it.


The following day the truck ran normally, without any issues for one day, 172 miles. However on the second day following the PM, going into town I noticed what seemed grey smoke while on a freeway ramp, it was early morning and still dark outside, barely noticable and only at that time 65mph with response normal. I fueled up didn't see any smoke on my way to the warehouse to load up. Once loaded it started up, it idled for 30 seconds then shut off. I had only experienced this with improper sealing of fuel filter a while back and thought this was the case.

Truck started up normal and idled normal. When put in gear, there would be no throttle response. I was able to move down the warehouse parking lot in gear and it practically idling forward. In neutral engine would only creep up to and be limited to 900-1000 rpm when pressing down on the throttle. Then would shut off after blowing out white bluish smoke from tail pipe and the EGR leak location at the flex joint above the exhaust flange.

Dealership did some sort of test on the fuel pump and showed it doing 1499 PSI instead of the 7000PSI needed (was showed a window screenshot printout). They've suggested they need to "replace fuel pump, due to no fuel pressure, internal pump failure, need to flush fuel system, check fuel tank, change filters" as well as needing to "replace all 6 injectors due to possible metal contamination" There is a portion on the estimate for additional repairs/diagnostics "once engine is running"

Sooo, I ran into one today that sounds very familiar. Early 2005 268, 380k. Loaded truck, on the hook. The driver was waiting.
It would idle, but not really move. I limped it halfway through a bay door then it died. Luckily it was warm out, because it was stuck there. Shut the heat off, put on a jacket.
About 1500 psi of rail pressure. Replaced fuel filter. No change. Ran an aux tank directly to the filter head. No change. Ran aux tank directly to pump. No change. Having ruled out the tanks, fuel lines, filter, etc, that left the injection pump, rail limiter, scv. I was starting to think it was actually the injection pump. Took line off of rail limiter and capped it. Cranked engine, looked in awe as jet of fuel shot across the shop. Never saw one fail that bad before. Stuck another one on. Fuel pressure shot way up, then the new rail limiter popped, sprayed fuel out. Replaced the SCV. Truck ran normal.

What was happening was the scv would stick to the full fuel position which is capable of making over 30k psi at the rail. The rail limiter pops off at around 29k, thereabouts. They do not like popping off many times, and eventually they get damaged and leak. This guy had been driving around for a few weeks like this, alternately running well, then barely idling, etc until the limiter hurt itself. With it only making 1500 psi, even after a filter change and making sure there was an uninterrupted fuel supply, I suspect most places would have just thrown a pump at it. The limiter would have leaked, money wasted. Even just a replacement scv wouldn't have worked; I suspect the damaged rail limiter would have continued to spew, making an unecessary pump replacement likely if no one first checked the limiter. Then maybe even injectors. I could see this scenario getting ugly.


I really like working on these things. Very logical order of progression.

Took about three hours, about $1200, including the tow bill (a full third of the total bill).
 
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Wraytechs

Seasoned Expediter
I have a 2012 268 that I just purchased and was wanting to know if DX 3.1.2 will work on this truck? thanks Wraytech
 

greasytshirt

Moderator
Staff member
Mechanic
I have a 2012 268 that I just purchased and was wanting to know if DX 3.1.2 will work on this truck? thanks Wraytech

I haven't used the old DX for about 18 months now, so I don't know what level the software was at. I think it will, but old dx is not user friendly at all . It will do the job, but it will take a long time to get familiar with it.

If you use it successfully just a few times, it will pay for itself. I don't mind walking you through it.
 

Wraytechs

Seasoned Expediter
I haven't used the old DX for about 18 months now, so I don't know what level the software was at. I think it will, but old dx is not user friendly at all . It will do the job, but it will take a long time to get familiar with it.

If you use it successfully just a few times, it will pay for itself. I don't mind walking you through it.
Thanks what is the new level out?
 
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