dieseldiva
Veteran Expediter
So with all of this warm and fuzzy golden rule stuff going around, I guess you and Dr. Paul still have hard feelings toward Jefferson and Madison for the Barbary Wars?
How to think about p!$$!ng on the Taliban
- Thread starter AMonger
- Start date
So with all of this warm and fuzzy golden rule stuff going around, I guess you and Dr. Paul still have hard feelings toward Jefferson and Madison for the Barbary Wars?
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Never discount the possibility that it might just be good for what ails ya ....
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Well oh well
Hate to be a pia but this is all a reflection of a lack of leadership and a need to justify a lost war.
I'm not a liberal but the liberals in this country are the same as the pseudo conservatives in that they don't understand the complexity of what we have lost, why we lost and how that complexity is clouded by this need to seek out revenge for something that we could have prevented but still can't.
Hate to be a pia but this is all a reflection of a lack of leadership and a need to justify a lost war.
I'm not a liberal but the liberals in this country are the same as the pseudo conservatives in that they don't understand the complexity of what we have lost, why we lost and how that complexity is clouded by this need to seek out revenge for something that we could have prevented but still can't.
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Yup - the only real question that remains is:
How bad do we want the loss to end up being ... ?
How big of a price do we really want to pay ?
Sadly, I'd suggest that it's going to have to get quite personal before some actually begin to contemplate that question in earnest ...
Ya just can't fix stupid ...
dieseldiva
Veteran Expediter
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Nope - I'm mostly just ignoring it - because the premise of it is inherently silly - it doesn't merit any more of a response than I gave it.
BTW, your comments above are pretty hilarious - considering you replied to my previous post (where I asked a number of questions) .... by asking a question .....
IS this guy (man or female) for real? Wow, I thought I was upset....he has some real deep demented issues.
It must be the voices??? Paranormal maybe?
Yup - the only real question that remains is:
How bad do we want the loss to end up being ... ?
How big of a price do we really want to pay ?
Sadly, I'd suggest that it's going to have to get quite personal before some actually begin to contemplate that question in earnest ...
Ya just can't fix stupid ...
Stupid is someone using big words or meanings that circle around the truth!
Never discount the possibility that it might just be good for what ails ya ....
Oh, I did not know you are the literary police officer!
greg334
Veteran Expediter
I don't know about Rlent but I think after reading enough of Paul's stuff, written or said by him, the issues of piracy as Jefferson and Madison position that resulted in the Barbary Wars is not the same as being in Afghanistan and trying to come to terms with a former political party that controlled the country.
I seem to think that his contraction off of the world stage, meaning out of countries that don't really need us as a deterrence but as a free meal ticket, would result in the same thing that Jefferson and Madison, among other people of that time, that we are going to use our military for defense of our country.
But we have lost the war in Afghanistan, the indication is in part by being all upset with this situation and by the fact that we are negotiating with the Taliban. To many it is as if Truman decided to stop fighting the war with Japan and Germany and decided to sue for peace with the leadership of both countries. No matter how you look at it, or want to justify it, if one takes the emotion out of examining the situation, they will find that the warnings that we were given turned out to be true and we crapped on an ally who now has more power over our success than we do.
It comes down to this, maybe Ron Paul is right this time.
I seem to think that his contraction off of the world stage, meaning out of countries that don't really need us as a deterrence but as a free meal ticket, would result in the same thing that Jefferson and Madison, among other people of that time, that we are going to use our military for defense of our country.
But we have lost the war in Afghanistan, the indication is in part by being all upset with this situation and by the fact that we are negotiating with the Taliban. To many it is as if Truman decided to stop fighting the war with Japan and Germany and decided to sue for peace with the leadership of both countries. No matter how you look at it, or want to justify it, if one takes the emotion out of examining the situation, they will find that the warnings that we were given turned out to be true and we crapped on an ally who now has more power over our success than we do.
It comes down to this, maybe Ron Paul is right this time.
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Of course, with stuff like this going on, can ya really blame them for just seeing what's really there:
Afghanistan’s Soldiers Step Up Killings of Allied Forces
Afghanistan’s Soldiers Step Up Killings of Allied Forces
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Of course, if we have things like this going on in various places throughout the world, I can't imagine why aren't beloved by just everyone - don't they know we are sacrificing ourselves for their benefit ?:
Nato accused of war crimes in Libya
Nato accused of war crimes in Libya
Originally Posted by RLENT
Apparently many of the wiser heads in the military ....
What do you think they would be doing to them if we hadn't invaded their land ? .... if we hadn't stayed ?
Actually, I believe it may be a violation of the laws of war ....
IOW, it's possibly a war crime ....
Marines **** on Taliban Dead: Understanding War Crimes
The marines urination video doesn't show the real war crime
I can judge anything I choose to .....
Not at all ....
Are you trying to use to justify any and all manner of behavior with absolutely no consequences ?
I wouldn't want to place any bets on that .....
So do others ....
No .... actually it's those who lack anything in the way of real moral and ethical standards, those who seek to excuse criminal activity because it somehow seems politically expedient ....
This "outrage" over our Marines taking a whiz on the dead carcasses of taliban vermin coming from someone who claims it is his right of free speech to urinate on the U.S. Flag and defecate on the graves of our fallen soldiers is just laughable. And this business about the "laws of war"???
Try explaining the "laws of war" to the taliban (who stone young girls to death for going to school) or some of the other muslim terrorist groups. Let these young Marines who have risked their lives to rid the world of these barbarians serve punishment by pulling KP duty for a week, and write 100 times "I will not get caught peeing on dead terrorists". That should teach them some humanity!!
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Hopefully, at a minimum, they'll end up getting something less than a honorable discharge (if not a dishonorable) .... as they rightly should .... they have brought dishonor on both the Marine Corps and the nation:
In Afghanistan, a senior US commander issued a letter to all personnel in the international coalition that is fighting the war, explicitly reminding them of the need to respect the dead. The letter from Army Lt. Gen. Curtis M. Scaparrotti, commander of the International Security Assistance Force Joint Command, reflected the depth of concern about fallout from the video.
"Defiling, desecrating, mocking, photographing or filming for personal use insurgent dead constitutes a grave breach of the LOAC (laws of armed conflict), violate basic standards of human decency and can cause serious damage to relations with the Afghan government," Scaparrotti wrote. He ordered all commanders to remind their subordinates of their duty to comply ......
...... Marine Gen. John Allen, the top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan, condemned the behavior and said in a statement Friday while he was traveling in the U.S. that the facts in the case should be determined swiftly.
"These actions are in direct opposition to everything the military stands for," Allen said after viewing the video. "Such acts in no way reflect the high moral standards and values we expect of our armed forces on a daily basis."
The NCIS, the law enforcement arm of the Navy, is heading the main inquiry, which is expected to consider evidence of violations of the U.S. military legal code as well as the international laws of warfare.
"The danger is that this kind of video can be misused in many ways to undermine what we are trying to do in Afghanistan and the possibility of reconciliation," Panetta said at Fort Bliss, Texas.
He said it was important for the U.S. to move quickly to "send a clear signal to the world that the U.S. will not tolerate this kind of behavior and that is not what the U.S. is all about."
"Defiling, desecrating, mocking, photographing or filming for personal use insurgent dead constitutes a grave breach of the LOAC (laws of armed conflict), violate basic standards of human decency and can cause serious damage to relations with the Afghan government," Scaparrotti wrote. He ordered all commanders to remind their subordinates of their duty to comply ......
...... Marine Gen. John Allen, the top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan, condemned the behavior and said in a statement Friday while he was traveling in the U.S. that the facts in the case should be determined swiftly.
"These actions are in direct opposition to everything the military stands for," Allen said after viewing the video. "Such acts in no way reflect the high moral standards and values we expect of our armed forces on a daily basis."
The NCIS, the law enforcement arm of the Navy, is heading the main inquiry, which is expected to consider evidence of violations of the U.S. military legal code as well as the international laws of warfare.
"The danger is that this kind of video can be misused in many ways to undermine what we are trying to do in Afghanistan and the possibility of reconciliation," Panetta said at Fort Bliss, Texas.
He said it was important for the U.S. to move quickly to "send a clear signal to the world that the U.S. will not tolerate this kind of behavior and that is not what the U.S. is all about."
The above leaders are deserving of respect for their apparent willingness to uphold high standards of moral conduct ..... and those who are unwilling to do so are worthy of nothing more than utter scorn and contempt ......
Marines Urinating On Taliban: All 4 Marines Identified
US investigators interview Marines filmed urinating over Taliban corpses
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RLENT
Veteran Expediter
And for those that are apparently too dim-witted to understand what the big deal is with this issue - have a read of the following - and keep in mind that someone you yourself know, may have to end up planting one their kids in the ground - as consequence of these very ill-advised acts on the part of some Un Supervised Military Children:
Taliban fighters rage over leaders’ reaction to video of Marines urinating on insurgent corpses
KABUL — Taliban fighters in Afghanistan have been enraged by a video which shows U.S. marines urinating on three corpses, believed to be insurgents, and some say they do not understand their leadership’s relatively measured response to the tape.
News of the clip spread fast across Afghanistan, even though only a minority of people have electricity and the internet is restricted to a tiny urban elite.
Radio can reach remote militants and villagers and mobile phones are used by many Afghans, on both sides of the war, for storing and sharing videos even in remote areas with little communications infrastructure.
“I heard from some friends about this shameful act of the U.S. forces but could not see it at first,” said one militant who called himself Qari Babar, explaining that a Pashto-language radio broadcast first alerted him to the tape’s existence.
The video, posted on YouTube and other websites, shows four Marines in camouflage combat uniforms urinating on three corpses. One of them jokes: “Have a nice day, buddy.” Another makes a lewd joke.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai has condemned the video, describing the men’s actions as “inhuman” and calling for an investigation. U.S. and NATO military commanders condemned the actions of the men, and Pentagon has acted quickly to respond to the video, in a bid to limit the fallout.
Although a Taliban spokesman criticized it last week, he said it would not harm nascent efforts to broker peace talks.
For some insurgents, their leadership’s muted response to the Marines’ actions was unwelcome, particularly after reports the Taliban had agreed to open a political office in Qatar to ease possible negotiation with the United States and allies.
“Our leaders overlooked this degrading and inhumane act of American soldiers because they are interested in peace talks,” said Mullah Mohammad Gul, a local Taliban commander in southern Helmand province, where the video is believed to have been made.
“Our duty is to defend our sacred religion and our people and we will keep fighting, no matter what.”
Insurgent fighters in other parts of the country said the video could undermine discipline and push foot soldiers to ignore orders from higher ranked fighters.
“Until now, we were following guidelines and principles laid down by our senior commanders for us to follow while fighting,” said Babar, active in Afghanistan’s eastern Nangarhar province.
Young insurgents might ignore orders in future, he added.
U.S. General John Allen, who commands international troops in Afghanistan, accused the Taliban’s one-eyed leader, Mullah Muhammad Omar, this week of having “lost all control” of his frontline fighters after several suicide bombings in the restive south killed almost 20 people, mostly civilians.
Babar said he watched the video with around 70 fighters, and said it shocked them even though previous cases of abuse by foreign soldiers in Afghanistan, including the murder of innocent civilians, had been well publicized.
“Every one is now desperately trying to find U.S. soldiers to take revenge for the desecration of the bodies,” he added.
HATE WILL GROW
Several commanders also thought the Marines’ actions would also help bolster the group’s standing with the rural Afghans they fight among.
“It helps us to win the support and sympathy of the Afghan people,” Abdul Basit, who fights in eastern Khost province where insurgents have a strong presence, told Reuters.
“You see now the entire nation, even so many people in the government and armed forces, have turned against them because of the atrocities,” Basit said.
Basit added that they had been advised by their leaders not to kill their prisoners and spies but after seeing the video, many of them might not control themselves in future.
In the southern town of Marjah, a part of Helmand that has seen heavy fighting and was the centre of a U.S.-led campaign to displace the Taliban in early 2010, another commander agreed.
“It is good that such video has emerged which showed Americans’ inhumane acts,” Mullah Abdullah told Reuters by satellite phone. He disagreed it would sap discipline, and instead saw a groundswell of greater support.
“From now on, hate against the foreign troops will grow in the hearts of every Muslim, especially in Afghanistan.”
News of the clip spread fast across Afghanistan, even though only a minority of people have electricity and the internet is restricted to a tiny urban elite.
Radio can reach remote militants and villagers and mobile phones are used by many Afghans, on both sides of the war, for storing and sharing videos even in remote areas with little communications infrastructure.
“I heard from some friends about this shameful act of the U.S. forces but could not see it at first,” said one militant who called himself Qari Babar, explaining that a Pashto-language radio broadcast first alerted him to the tape’s existence.
The video, posted on YouTube and other websites, shows four Marines in camouflage combat uniforms urinating on three corpses. One of them jokes: “Have a nice day, buddy.” Another makes a lewd joke.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai has condemned the video, describing the men’s actions as “inhuman” and calling for an investigation. U.S. and NATO military commanders condemned the actions of the men, and Pentagon has acted quickly to respond to the video, in a bid to limit the fallout.
Although a Taliban spokesman criticized it last week, he said it would not harm nascent efforts to broker peace talks.
For some insurgents, their leadership’s muted response to the Marines’ actions was unwelcome, particularly after reports the Taliban had agreed to open a political office in Qatar to ease possible negotiation with the United States and allies.
“Our leaders overlooked this degrading and inhumane act of American soldiers because they are interested in peace talks,” said Mullah Mohammad Gul, a local Taliban commander in southern Helmand province, where the video is believed to have been made.
“Our duty is to defend our sacred religion and our people and we will keep fighting, no matter what.”
Insurgent fighters in other parts of the country said the video could undermine discipline and push foot soldiers to ignore orders from higher ranked fighters.
“Until now, we were following guidelines and principles laid down by our senior commanders for us to follow while fighting,” said Babar, active in Afghanistan’s eastern Nangarhar province.
Young insurgents might ignore orders in future, he added.
U.S. General John Allen, who commands international troops in Afghanistan, accused the Taliban’s one-eyed leader, Mullah Muhammad Omar, this week of having “lost all control” of his frontline fighters after several suicide bombings in the restive south killed almost 20 people, mostly civilians.
Babar said he watched the video with around 70 fighters, and said it shocked them even though previous cases of abuse by foreign soldiers in Afghanistan, including the murder of innocent civilians, had been well publicized.
“Every one is now desperately trying to find U.S. soldiers to take revenge for the desecration of the bodies,” he added.
HATE WILL GROW
Several commanders also thought the Marines’ actions would also help bolster the group’s standing with the rural Afghans they fight among.
“It helps us to win the support and sympathy of the Afghan people,” Abdul Basit, who fights in eastern Khost province where insurgents have a strong presence, told Reuters.
“You see now the entire nation, even so many people in the government and armed forces, have turned against them because of the atrocities,” Basit said.
Basit added that they had been advised by their leaders not to kill their prisoners and spies but after seeing the video, many of them might not control themselves in future.
In the southern town of Marjah, a part of Helmand that has seen heavy fighting and was the centre of a U.S.-led campaign to displace the Taliban in early 2010, another commander agreed.
“It is good that such video has emerged which showed Americans’ inhumane acts,” Mullah Abdullah told Reuters by satellite phone. He disagreed it would sap discipline, and instead saw a groundswell of greater support.
“From now on, hate against the foreign troops will grow in the hearts of every Muslim, especially in Afghanistan.”
Taliban fighters rage over leaders’ reaction to video of Marines urinating on insurgent corpses
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