How Long Before This Happens Here.....

dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
I've been watching the rioting in London and wondering how long before things like this start happening here.

We had the unions tearing up the capital building in Wisconsin to the tune of $7 1/2 million in damage, mostly because they were going to lose some of their taxpayer funded "goodies".

Recently we had black youths attacking white fair goers, if I remember correctly, that was Wisconsin also. For what? Just for the fun of it? Just because "we could"?

This article is one that Mark Levin recommended and I think it makes perfect sense and also makes me wonder how long before this begins here in earnest.

THEODORE DALRYMPLE
British Degeneracy on Parade
The riots should surprise no one who’s been paying attention.
10 August 2011
The ferocious criminality exhibited by an uncomfortably large section of the English population during the current riots has not surprised me in the least. I have been writing about it, in its slightly less acute manifestations, for the past 20 years. To have spotted it required no great perspicacity on my part; rather, it took a peculiar cowardly blindness, one regularly displayed by the British intelligentsia and political class, not to see it and not to realize its significance. There is nothing that an intellectual less likes to change than his mind, or a politician his policy.

Three men were run over and killed as they tried to protect their property in the very area of Birmingham in which I used to work, and through which I walked daily; the large town that I live near when I’m in England has also seen rioting. Only someone who never looked around him and never drew any conclusions from the faces and manner of the young men he saw would have been surprised.

The riots are the apotheosis of the welfare state and popular culture in their British form. A population thinks (because it has often been told so by intellectuals and the political class) that it is entitled to a high standard of consumption, irrespective of its personal efforts; and therefore it regards the fact that it does not receive that high standard, by comparison with the rest of society, as a sign of injustice. It believes itself deprived (because it has often been told so by intellectuals and the political class), even though each member of it has received an education costing $80,000, toward which neither he nor—quite likely—any member of his family has made much of a contribution; indeed, he may well have lived his entire life at others’ expense, such that every mouthful of food he has ever eaten, every shirt he has ever worn, every television he has ever watched, has been provided by others. Even if he were to recognize this, he would not be grateful, for dependency does not promote gratitude. On the contrary, he would simply feel that the subventions were not sufficient to allow him to live as he would have liked.

At the same time, his expensive education will have equipped him for nothing. His labor, even supposing that he were inclined to work, would not be worth its cost to any employer—partly because of the social charges necessary to keep others such as he in a state of permanent idleness, and partly because of his own characteristics. And so unskilled labor is performed in England by foreigners, while an indigenous class of permanently unemployed is subsidized.

The culture of the person in this situation is not such as to elevate his behavior. One in which the late Amy Winehouse—the vulgar, semicriminal drug addict and alcoholic singer of songs whose lyrics effectively celebrated the most degenerate kind of life imaginable—could be raised to the status of heroine is not one that is likely to protect against bad behavior.

Finally, long experience of impunity has taught the rioters that they have nothing to fear from the law, which in England has become almost comically lax—except, that is, for the victims of crime. For the rioters, crime has become the default setting of their behavior; the surprising thing about the riots is not that they have occurred, but that they did not occur sooner and did not become chronic.

Theodore Dalrymple, a physician, is a contributing editor of City Journal and the Dietrich Weismann Fellow at the Manhattan Institute.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
It would not surprise me one bit if these riots in England were planned and started by a very small group like the anti-war protests here in the '60's were funded and fueled by outside sources. They were organized and waiting for the "proper spark" and when it happened they started. It has now taken on a life of it's own.

These kinds of "riots" will spread and become more violent throughout Europe and eventually here. The same people are behind this here.
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
Oh my goodness ... who writes this codswallop


"The riots are the apotheosis of the welfare state and popular culture in their British form. A population thinks (because it has often been told so by intellectuals and the political class) that it is entitled to a high standard of consumption, irrespective of its personal efforts; and therefore it regards the fact that it does not receive that high standard, by comparison with the rest of society, as a sign of injustice" etc etc

What a load of rubbish :mad::mad:

This started over the alleged shooting of a police officer .... the coloured gangs were apparently not impressed when the police shot back .... the rest of the outbreaks are copycat.

I am watching this intently as my son is a police officer

Actually I think I am right in saying that there was something similar in the US when a coloured gentleman got shot or beaten up by the police
 
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greg334

Veteran Expediter
You know the riots in England are not protesters turned angry but opportunists who have taken advantage of the situation. The original protests apparently have been a small group and others joined in and made it into what it is now. This has been repeated a number of times on the BBC and other Non-US news outlets.

A bit of history for those who don't get that, back in the '50s and '60s in Germany and France, there were a bunch of riots that happened the same way. A small crowd of people who were protesting something ended up getting help by those who were looking to cause anarchy and it took a number of days to disperse the gangs.

Our problem is we need to grow up
 

tbubster

Seasoned Expediter
What the heck why not:D

I belive it will happen happen here.At the start of the riots it was because of deadly police action.Now the riots are just a forfront so people who feel like they are old something can steal it.Gonna post a link to a video and one women/girl when asked why she is doing this she says to take her taxes back.Now they know tis is wrong and when it comes down to it all they are really doing is stealing.The reason I can say this is why else are they wearing mask to hide cameras from seeing who they are.As soon as they started looting from shop owners and setting buildings on fire they were no longer protesters.They became theives.

Teen Mob Attack Caught on Tape - Fox News Video - FoxNews.com

Now as I said I belive they will happen here as we see the riase of "Flash Mob Attacks" on the rise here in america and nothing real being done about them.As the liberal left depend on the fact that many many americans belive and buy into the whole class warfare game.It gets closer and closer to happening.
Flash mob attacks - Yahoo! Video Search

Flash mob attacks - Yahoo! Video Search

Their are many many many storys of attacks like this and I belive it will all come to a boil next year as we get closer to the election.More so if Obama's numbers keep falling and it looks like he will be defeated.At first I think it will be played out as a race war.However as the days go on it will be seen for what it is Many people using the whole class warfare as an excuse for them to steal things they belive they have a right to instead of working and paying for it.

Flash mob attacks - Yahoo! Video Search
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I firmly believe that there are small groups of "organized rabalrousers" behind a lot of what we see going on today.

There is a lot of discontent everywhere. Organized "thugs" play on this, stoking the fires so to speak. When there is a trigger, like the shooting, it fires up.
 

dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
Our problem is we need to grow up

Care to elaborate on that??

The riots may have started because of the shooting but when you read that some of the rioters have said they're "showing the rich people what we can do", it's pretty hard to deny that there isn't class warfare involved....just like Obama keeps trying to spark right here at home.
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
Care to elaborate on that??

The riots may have started because of the shooting but when you read that some of the rioters have said they're "showing the rich people what we can do", it's pretty hard to deny that there isn't class warfare involved....just like Obama keeps trying to spark right here at home.



The ppl that are involved in the looting will use any excuse to try and excuse their behaviour :mad:

There are 10 - 14 year olds involved and they can hardly claim "class warfare"

I can assure you that no law abiding citizen in the UK believes a word they say.

They, unfortunately, are out there for the "hell of it" end of story or as you would say ... period.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"Actually I think I am right in saying that there was something similar in the US when a coloured gentleman got shot or beaten up by the police."

The list of riots in the US sparked by that very thing is actually a very long one. Rodney King is arguable the most famous, but far from unique, or even rare.


As for the planning of a riot, it is very difficult to plan and stage a riot. A protest is far easier to organize, but there's no guarantee that a riot will break out. When should the riot be held? Where? How should the participants be notified? Once marshaled, how should they be instigated to behave in a way that would expose them to arrest? Trying to organize a riot as though it were a company picnic would quickly attract the attention of the police anyway, and may would quickly lose interest.

People riot for several reasons, despite the article of the piece and others who want to pigeon-hole it into categories like "right versus left" or welfare versus anti-welfare" or whatever. Most riots are politically based, even if the rioters have no political agenda themselves. All riots in one form or another stem from social disharmony, which is manifested in the rioting. Some of the more current recurring themes for such social disharmony include police abuse and/or bias, lack of affordable housing, economic inequality, rapid demographic change, racism, discrimination, high unemployment, and poor schools, but throughout history there have been many other reasons behind riots.

Riots in the US (and indeed around the world) are not new or rare. The list of riots and other violent civil unrest in the US alone is as long as your arm, and your other arm, plus both legs.

In 1863, citizens were drafted to serve on the Union side in the Civil War. However, a loophole existed, and anybody with $300 could pay a commutation fee and avoid conscription. In today’s dollars, that fee would be equal to over $5000, a sum of money far out of the reach of poor and working-class people.

Resentment at the situation eventually resulted in rioting, but those taking part soon targeted African-Americans, and large numbers were lynched in the streets and had their homes destroyed.


The Zip to Zap was an idea of Chuck Stroup, a student at North Dakota State University in Fargo. He could not afford to attend the more traditional spring break festivities held in Fort Lauderdale, so he came up with the idea of what was to become known as the "Zip to Zap a Grand Festival of Light and Love", a college Spring Break in the small town of Zap, ND, population 250. Stroup placed an advertisement in the student newspaper at NDSU. His idea was soon embraced by college students throughout the upper Midwest.

Students began arriving in Zap on Friday, May 9, 1969. They quickly filled the town's two taverns. The demand for beer was such that the tavern owners decided to double the price. This action upset the students, but it didn't matter since all the beer was quickly drank anyway. Then, drunken students took the streets, and the vomiting and urinating on the streets by the students caused great concern among the locals, who quickly began to fear for their safety. The temperatures fell below freezing and the drunken college students started a bonfire in the center of town, using wood that was left over from a recent demolition project. The townspeople, led by Mayor Fuchs, asked the students to leave. Some complied and some did not. Most went full-fledge riot.

Most of the businesses in town had to be demolished and rebuilt. A new city hall was built on the site of the abandoned building that had provided fuel for the bonfire. What had started out as a spring break get-together quickly turned into the only riot in North Dakota's history, which was finally put down by the North Dakota National Guard.
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
"As for the planning of a riot, it is very difficult to plan and stage a riot........ "


Unfortunately nothing could be easier nowadays ..... Twitter and Facebook were/are used.

Not much to a riot really is there .... pillage and burn, and, if you, can dispose of a rival gang member in the heat of it all :mad:

MP's have called for a temporary suspension of both (haven't got it though)
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"As for the planning of a riot, it is very difficult to plan and stage a riot. A protest is far easier to organize, but there's no guarantee that a riot will break out. When should the riot be held? Where? How should the participants be notified? Once marshaled, how should they be instigated to behave in a way that would expose them to arrest? Trying to organize a riot as though it were a company picnic would quickly attract the attention of the police anyway, and may would quickly lose interest."


I don't believe that riots are "planned" but they are instigated over time. Passions are inflamed over time. It only takes the "spark" to set off the vapors of discord.

Read the bit on "Flash Mobs" as well, there seems to have been some corrordination in London and other places using "social networks".
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"As for the planning of a riot, it is very difficult to plan and stage a riot........ "

Unfortunately nothing could be easier nowadays ..... Twitter and Facebook were/are used.
Well, Twitter and Facebook are used to rally and gather, just like word of mouth and early printing presses were. As Layout noted, they are instigated over time, for a plethora of reasons. The Boston Tea Party is a prime example of that. So was the Boston Bread Riots and more Boston riots than you would believe. (Bostonians are a riotous people. :D ) Passions are inflamed over time. Frustrations build. The gathering of a bunch of people, even if they have violence in mind and the gathering is organized, isn't necessarily all that it takes to create a riot. Like our resident duck murderer notes, it only takes the "spark" to set off the vapors of discord. Except that "spark" is tougher to create than you think. It's certainly not one that can be created via Twitter.

The "sparK" is best known (to professional and amateur sociologists) as a "Schelling incident," after Thomas Schelling, the great master of strategic theory.

In The Strategy of Conflict (1960) Schelling wrote,
It is usually the essence of mob formation that the potential members have to know not only where and when to meet but just when to act so that they act in concert. Overt leadership solves the problem; but leadership can often be identified and eliminated by the authority trying to prevent mob action. In this case the mob's problem is to act in unison without overt leadership, to find some common signal that makes everyone confident that, if he acts on it, he will not be acting alone. The role of "incidents" can thus be seen as a coordinating role; it is a substitute for overt leadership and communication. Without something like an incident, it may be difficult to get action at all, since immunity requires that all know when to act together.​
It's not crucial, in the beginning or generative stage of a riot, that the participants act literally simultaneously. What's crucial is that offenses occur rapidly enough to overwhelm the police. From the rioter's viewpoint, there is safety in numbers. There comes a point at which the police pass from inadequacy to impotence.

In the 1992 Rodney King Los Angeles riot for example, the police actually pulled back from the trouble when it became obvious to everyone, including themselves, that there was nothing constructive they could do.

Certain kinds of high-profile events have become traditional "starting signals'' for civil disorders, and the UK gives up celebrated examples of that. Incidents can become signals simply because they have been signals before. For example, what ignited the first English soccer (or football, if you like) riot has been lost in the mists of history, but they had become a troublesome problem sometime during the nineteenth century, as Bill Buford (1991) makes clear in quoting old newspaper accounts in his Among the Thugs.

Today, there is a century's weight of tradition behind soccer violence. People near a football ground on game day know that a certain amount of mischief, possibly of a quite violent kind, is apt to occur. Those who dislike that sort of thing had best take themselves elsewhere. Certain people, though, thrive on the action, the relish getting drunk, fighting, smoking dope; enjoy the whiff of anarchy, harassing and beating respectable people and vandalizing their property. Such people, those rascal hooligans, make a point of being where the trouble is likely to start.

The sort of "soccer fans'' about whom Buford wrote were mostly interested in barbarian camaraderie, not soccer. Some of them do not even go inside the stadium, and some spectators do not watch the game but pass their time in petty thievery. Mr. Hooligan's game is being a part of the crowd that congregates near a soccer stadium, belonging to and sharing its power, especially its power to flout the law.

A Schelling incident is not a signal that tells a person what to do. It is a signal that tells a person what other people will probably do. In the United Kingdom even an ordinary minor league soccer match might well be a Schelling incident. Buford gives several examples in his book. Here in the US, that sort of game would not be, however having one's team win a NBA championship or the Super Bowl increasingly seems to be. In Detroit in recent years, "Devils Night'' (the night before Halloween) has become a springboard for multiple, independent, almost simultaneous acts of arson. These are examples of how culture, habit, and tradition can overcome major organizational barriers to cooperative social endeavors and lower the cost of transacting business. Twitter, Facebook and Blackberries reduce that cost even further.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Care to elaborate on that??

The riots may have started because of the shooting but when you read that some of the rioters have said they're "showing the rich people what we can do", it's pretty hard to deny that there isn't class warfare involved....just like Obama keeps trying to spark right here at home.

We have a race problem not because we have a race problem but because we have people who decide that they need to perpetuate race issues to make a living, Most people are willing to go along with this fantasy that we have so much racism that we are an unjust country because they are either afraid of being labeled a racist (which they would actually be a bigot) or because they are afraid to discuss race issues.

We need to grow up.
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
Turtle I do agree with the hooligan element, but as you can see from the sudden onset of the violence it was not in the long term planning at all..... a few messages on twitter or whatever ... turn up and reap havoc.

They are all cowards .... IMO


I am pleased to say that England seems peaceful tonight.
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
Here is the difference between the US and England.

Cameron: UK won't let 'culture of fear' take over - Yahoo! News

We would be asking ourselves how can we appease them while it seems Cameron is saying - screw them.

We need to grow up.



I agree with his line from the other day ....

"If you are old enough to do the crime, you are old enough for the punishment"

referring to the minors that decided to "have a go" looting and throwing foreign objects at police.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
"Codswallop", indeed! :D
Can anyone cite even ONE instance of people being told they 'deserve a certain standard of living' [other than minimal necessities]?
Because I keep hearing that, but the only examples I see are the messages to the upper class about all the things they deserve [luxury vehicles, Rolexes, gated living].
Nor do I believe that people don't WANT to work - not many of them at least. [There will always be some lazy folks.] What they don't want is to have to have 2 or 3 jobs to get by, and that's what it takes, for too many people today.
And as far as 'no consequences'? How many have been arrested in Britain? I think they'll be facing consequences, all right.
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
Last count was 850 arrests I believe Cheri, and I seriously believe that the courts will come down hard on the hooligans
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"Codswallop", indeed! :D
Can anyone cite even ONE instance of people being told they 'deserve a certain standard of living' [other than minimal necessities]?
Too many to list here, but the big one is Clinton's “The National Homeownership Strategy: Partners in the American Dream” directive which said, essentially, everyone deserves to own a home.
 
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