In the last few weeks i have been getting back to back runs. Everyone loves that no question. My situation is as follows. Run 700 miles an drop off. Now its taken all day and Im beat so I start looking for the next truck stop. Just have enough time to fuel up when the QC goes off with another 700 mile run. My mind works like a cash register so I take it. It doesnt hit me until 350 miles, 84 Mt. Dews, and a pack of trucker speed later that this may have been a bad call. So the question is. Do you give up the 2nd long run to keep your sanity or just go for it and hope you make it? Its something I will think about if it happens again. By the end of all that i was physically sick, headache, puke, seeing flashes of light, etc. Now I now im getting old.
How do you feel about back to back runs?
- Thread starter driver628
- Start date
nightcreacher
Veteran Expediter
>In the last few weeks i have been getting back to back runs.
>Everyone loves that no question. My situation is as follows.
>Run 700 miles an drop off. Now its taken all day and Im beat
>so I start looking for the next truck stop. Just have enough
>time to fuel up when the QC goes off with another 700 mile
>run. My mind works like a cash register so I take it. It
>doesnt hit me until 350 miles, 84 Mt. Dews, and a pack of
>trucker speed later that this may have been a bad call. So
>the question is. Do you give up the 2nd long run to keep
>your sanity or just go for it and hope you make it? Its
>something I will think about if it happens again. By the end
>of all that i was physically sick, headache, puke, seeing
>flashes of light, etc. Now I now im getting old.
what size truck are you driving,hos rules are being violated,unless your team,and even though,if your in a van,and no logs,your only hurting yourself,going that much time without rest
>Everyone loves that no question. My situation is as follows.
>Run 700 miles an drop off. Now its taken all day and Im beat
>so I start looking for the next truck stop. Just have enough
>time to fuel up when the QC goes off with another 700 mile
>run. My mind works like a cash register so I take it. It
>doesnt hit me until 350 miles, 84 Mt. Dews, and a pack of
>trucker speed later that this may have been a bad call. So
>the question is. Do you give up the 2nd long run to keep
>your sanity or just go for it and hope you make it? Its
>something I will think about if it happens again. By the end
>of all that i was physically sick, headache, puke, seeing
>flashes of light, etc. Now I now im getting old.
what size truck are you driving,hos rules are being violated,unless your team,and even though,if your in a van,and no logs,your only hurting yourself,going that much time without rest
From a health standpoint it isn't good. From a safety standpoint it's worse. HOS rules will probably be extended to all commercial vehicles within the next couple of years. Companies shouldn't offer runs that overextend drivers but some do. I believe there may be a few drivers who can do back to back runs like that with no problem while the vast majority are going to be exhausted before finishing and a danger to themselves and others on the highway. It may have been the run that met the dispatcher's or booker's quota for the day though.
Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA Life Member 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
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Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA Life Member 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
tom tinker
Expert Expediter
Right on Leo they will be logging vans, because of things like this. Your running solo, 1400 miles, an Mountain Dew make you a zombie. }>
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Actually Leo, this is the second time I have heard this from a driver of the same company. This is not a HOS thing but a failure in company managment/policy and shows that don't have properly trained people in the dispatcher's seat. I think that the dispatcher should have known better, and should be fired - yes that 5 letter word - and the supervisor on duty at that time needs to be reprimanded, maybe demoted.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE TO MAKE AN OFFER LIKE THIS TO A DRIVER WHO HAS DRIVEN 700 MILES.
First thing is that regardless what the driver says, like "I can handle that", the dispatcher has the resources to look at his/her last run, see where he/she is and how many miles he/she has driven in the last 24/48/180 days with the computer in front of the dispatcher. Second it is their job to ensure that the public is safe (the primary reson for all these regulations) and the company is covered from any liablity, safety first, customer service second. This is where a liablity would have happened for them up and could have led to a BIG lawsuit if the driver got into an accident even if it is not their fault. For those who don't think so, need to look at how the courts and lawyers can twist the fault of an accident towards the company and countless lawsuits against companies have netted millions for lawyers who are sharks in the water waiting for someone to fall in.
Does this company have safety reviews for the dispatching staff? If not, maybe it is time.
OH for those who think that the company will help you if something happens, like an accident in a simular situation, don't count on it. You will be made the scapegoat and what is on the line is your assets and your future. The larger the company, the more they will distance themselves and a company in flux is the worst. I know of one lawyer who would go after everything you own and then go after the company. that lawyer would work for nothing just to right a wrong. So think first.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE TO MAKE AN OFFER LIKE THIS TO A DRIVER WHO HAS DRIVEN 700 MILES.
First thing is that regardless what the driver says, like "I can handle that", the dispatcher has the resources to look at his/her last run, see where he/she is and how many miles he/she has driven in the last 24/48/180 days with the computer in front of the dispatcher. Second it is their job to ensure that the public is safe (the primary reson for all these regulations) and the company is covered from any liablity, safety first, customer service second. This is where a liablity would have happened for them up and could have led to a BIG lawsuit if the driver got into an accident even if it is not their fault. For those who don't think so, need to look at how the courts and lawyers can twist the fault of an accident towards the company and countless lawsuits against companies have netted millions for lawyers who are sharks in the water waiting for someone to fall in.
Does this company have safety reviews for the dispatching staff? If not, maybe it is time.
OH for those who think that the company will help you if something happens, like an accident in a simular situation, don't count on it. You will be made the scapegoat and what is on the line is your assets and your future. The larger the company, the more they will distance themselves and a company in flux is the worst. I know of one lawyer who would go after everything you own and then go after the company. that lawyer would work for nothing just to right a wrong. So think first.
sometimes the same thing has happen to me after working 8 hours in a day and do ya want to go to here, and thinking don't they know i work all day, and ask when does it have to be there as soon as you can get there, say no and i'm not going to drive all night after working all day , money may be nice but if your fender bender it won't be petty
and one person say's your in van i say so, still not going to do it
and one person say's your in van i say so, still not going to do it
I have, and will always turn down loads offered in the evening, that have to go straight through, if I don't feel I can do it safely. The money sounds tempting, but the 4 am "I gotta SLEEP!" feeling isn't worth it. I try to take a nap every day, just in case, but some days it just doesn't happen, and I won't try to drive through the night. Other days, no problem - which is why I don't like logging. In the situation described, I wouldn't have taken the second run.
You want to be an independent contractor and business person than act like it. You take a run it then becomes your responsibility to get the freight to its destination on time. If you do not think you can do it, do not take the run. Do not blame any one at the company, it is your decision to make. I do not mean to sound cold and hard, but this is the way it is. When the company starts making decisions about what runs you should or should not take, then you are one step closer to being an employee instead of a independent contractor.
panther_art
Expert Expediter
This is for Panther van drivers. You know before van drivers stayed in service after they finished a load because they didn't want to lose board position, but now that you don't lose your position you can push #2 sleeping after you pod. After you do a long load get some rest and wake ready to roll.
But if you do the #4 you are telling dispatch that you are ready for another load.
Its there use it.
If you do take the load and get part way thur it call and say you need more time so you can get a couple hrs sleep or they will have to swap the load out.
Remember very soon when we get real busy back to back loads are going to be something we are all going to be getting.
Also if you get a long load like 700 miles and you pick the load up and roll with it you should be able to get ahead of the clock and be able to take a nap after you are half way there.
Panther Art
But if you do the #4 you are telling dispatch that you are ready for another load.
Its there use it.
If you do take the load and get part way thur it call and say you need more time so you can get a couple hrs sleep or they will have to swap the load out.
Remember very soon when we get real busy back to back loads are going to be something we are all going to be getting.
Also if you get a long load like 700 miles and you pick the load up and roll with it you should be able to get ahead of the clock and be able to take a nap after you are half way there.
Panther Art
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Fastrod,
I just don't agree. The driver does not even come close to becoming an employee if they don't offer you any thing. What becomes a problem when talking about employement is the fact that the dispatcher tells you to take the run or else.
Also being an independent contractor has nothing to do with this, it is clearly that the the mechinism within the company from taking the customer's call to delivering it safe has somethig wrong with it.
Using the information at hand, I would say without hessitation that the fault sits on the dispatcher's shoulders - not the drivers and I would have at least pulled that dispatcher out and made sure that they understand what the company policies are (if they do exist) and watch them carefully beside getting safety to audit them. It is, or should be the dispatchers responsiblity to ensure that the driver can safely take the load even before the load is offered. Not offering the load does not harm the driver in anyway in this case, but may have if the dispatcher has to 'fill' a specific qouta. AND I find that there is NO EXCUSE for a lack of information on a specific driver with what we pay in Qualcomm fees.
Oh thanks to Panther_Art for the info - even though I am not a Panther driver.
I just don't agree. The driver does not even come close to becoming an employee if they don't offer you any thing. What becomes a problem when talking about employement is the fact that the dispatcher tells you to take the run or else.
Also being an independent contractor has nothing to do with this, it is clearly that the the mechinism within the company from taking the customer's call to delivering it safe has somethig wrong with it.
Using the information at hand, I would say without hessitation that the fault sits on the dispatcher's shoulders - not the drivers and I would have at least pulled that dispatcher out and made sure that they understand what the company policies are (if they do exist) and watch them carefully beside getting safety to audit them. It is, or should be the dispatchers responsiblity to ensure that the driver can safely take the load even before the load is offered. Not offering the load does not harm the driver in anyway in this case, but may have if the dispatcher has to 'fill' a specific qouta. AND I find that there is NO EXCUSE for a lack of information on a specific driver with what we pay in Qualcomm fees.
Oh thanks to Panther_Art for the info - even though I am not a Panther driver.
nightcreacher
Veteran Expediter
> You want to be an independent contractor and business
>person than act like it. You take a run it then becomes your
>responsibility to get the freight to its destination on
>time. If you do not think you can do it, do not take the
>run. Do not blame any one at the company, it is your
>decision to make. I do not mean to sound cold and hard, but
>this is the way it is. When the company starts making
>decisions about what runs you should or should not take,
>then you are one step closer to being an employee instead of
>a independent contractor.
hos rules make it illegal to drive 1400 miles without a break,and in this case,he stated he was taking pills and soda,seeing light flashes.
if he had stroke and killed someone,this would have fell back on company,dispatch,and driver\
as a professional,he has responsibility to say no i cant do this
>person than act like it. You take a run it then becomes your
>responsibility to get the freight to its destination on
>time. If you do not think you can do it, do not take the
>run. Do not blame any one at the company, it is your
>decision to make. I do not mean to sound cold and hard, but
>this is the way it is. When the company starts making
>decisions about what runs you should or should not take,
>then you are one step closer to being an employee instead of
>a independent contractor.
hos rules make it illegal to drive 1400 miles without a break,and in this case,he stated he was taking pills and soda,seeing light flashes.
if he had stroke and killed someone,this would have fell back on company,dispatch,and driver\
as a professional,he has responsibility to say no i cant do this
Greg, to be fair, at least at Panther, it's the dispatcher's job to dispatch, and it's the Safety Department's job to monitor drivers and loads for compliance (mainly to keep Panther's "warm and fuzzy" all warm and fuzzy in case of an accident). All loads of 700 miles or more, or back-to-back runs, are to be flagged by dispatch to have Safety take a look at. A dispatcher who doesn't flag a qualifying load will be in trouble. Often, Safety will mandate a break (not for safety, mind you, but rather for Safety - there's a huge difference).
But, and with no offense to driver628, as I don't even know him, it's the utterly unprofessional blind vision of dollar signs that cause many van drivers to make utterly unprofessional decisions. Are you a professional driver who takes his job seriously, or are you a steering wheel holder without any brains? Sorry to be blunt, and I'm actually holding back a great deal. Forget the fact that you're putting yourself in danger, you're putting everyone on the road in danger. Are you prepared to live with that?
There isn't a single person on the planet who can take back-to-back 700 miles runs without taking multiple breaks and do it safely. Not one. That's 20-plus hours behind the wheel. Unless it's a beating heart inside an Igloo cooler, no way is any freight worth it.
You can take back-to-back runs like that, but only if you have your sleep timed properly so that you can operate on an alert level. Seeing flashes of light is not being alert. You said yourself that after the first run you were already beat, which means there was no way you were going to get enough sleep along the way to remain alert while driving, Mt Dews and pep pills notwithstanding. The only substitute for sleep is sleep. Period.
I've taken back-to-back runs like that before. I've also turned a bunch of them down. If I've had plenty of sleep before the first run, and I can take the second run and get enough sleep along the way so as to remain awake and alert, I'll take it. Otherwise, forget it. The safety of others and even myself aside, if I have even a minor single vehicle accident, the van goes into the body shop for a month or two. That's a helluva gamble to risk a $500 load on being out of work for weeks.
Just last weekend, after being up most of Friday, I got a 650 mile overnight run from Dallas to El Paso. Not figuring on getting a load out of El Paso on the weekend, I did some work on van and went to the grocery store. Was headed back to the truck stop when I get a load picking up in 2 hours, headed for Ontario, a noon Monday delivery. That's 40 hours to get it there, 32 of it behind the wheel. Believe me, I saw a lot more than just dollar signs.
Turns out it was a CSA load and I'm not SCA approved, so she said we'd have to swap it out at the border. Weeeell, we're gonna have to swap it out a lot sooner than that, lemme tall ya.
I'll be able to get a 5 hour break along the way, while building up a couple of extra hours to give the other driver for him to take a break (80 MPH in west Texas), and I'm good for about half way, maybe a little more. After that I'm gonna need my 8-9 hours. A swap was worked out, the load was delivered, and I was safe and alert the entire way.
Can you imagine if I'd have taken that the whole way, though? For a few extra dollars, about the time the wall would hit me I'd hit early morning rush hour in Detroit, then the border, then drive across Ontario and then, when I'm at my most tired and least alert, with the response time of a snockered wino, I slam into Toronto at late morning for the delivery. No thanks.
With any load, you have to take a closer look at it than its dollar sign. Look at where it's going, what kind of conditions you're likely to encounter, and at what time of day you're going to encounter them. Can you get enough sleep, and can it be timed to minimize the adverse conditions you're gonna run into. For example, do you want to hit Nashville at 8AM and deal with the added stress and the 90 minutes it takes to get through it all, or can you time your sleep to hit Nashville at 6AM and pass through there in 15 minutes, and then take a nap?
When you answer that question about can you take this load and deliver it safely and on time, that's a serious question (it actually becomes a binding contract) and it shouldn't be answered without serious consideration.
Incidentally, to date, I have yet to turn down a load, go to sleep, wake up, and then never be offered another good run.
Be smart. Be safe. Be around to grab that dollar sign tomorrow.
Therapy is expensive. Poppin' bubble wrap is cheap.
You choose.
But, and with no offense to driver628, as I don't even know him, it's the utterly unprofessional blind vision of dollar signs that cause many van drivers to make utterly unprofessional decisions. Are you a professional driver who takes his job seriously, or are you a steering wheel holder without any brains? Sorry to be blunt, and I'm actually holding back a great deal. Forget the fact that you're putting yourself in danger, you're putting everyone on the road in danger. Are you prepared to live with that?
There isn't a single person on the planet who can take back-to-back 700 miles runs without taking multiple breaks and do it safely. Not one. That's 20-plus hours behind the wheel. Unless it's a beating heart inside an Igloo cooler, no way is any freight worth it.
You can take back-to-back runs like that, but only if you have your sleep timed properly so that you can operate on an alert level. Seeing flashes of light is not being alert. You said yourself that after the first run you were already beat, which means there was no way you were going to get enough sleep along the way to remain alert while driving, Mt Dews and pep pills notwithstanding. The only substitute for sleep is sleep. Period.
I've taken back-to-back runs like that before. I've also turned a bunch of them down. If I've had plenty of sleep before the first run, and I can take the second run and get enough sleep along the way so as to remain awake and alert, I'll take it. Otherwise, forget it. The safety of others and even myself aside, if I have even a minor single vehicle accident, the van goes into the body shop for a month or two. That's a helluva gamble to risk a $500 load on being out of work for weeks.
Just last weekend, after being up most of Friday, I got a 650 mile overnight run from Dallas to El Paso. Not figuring on getting a load out of El Paso on the weekend, I did some work on van and went to the grocery store. Was headed back to the truck stop when I get a load picking up in 2 hours, headed for Ontario, a noon Monday delivery. That's 40 hours to get it there, 32 of it behind the wheel. Believe me, I saw a lot more than just dollar signs.
Turns out it was a CSA load and I'm not SCA approved, so she said we'd have to swap it out at the border. Weeeell, we're gonna have to swap it out a lot sooner than that, lemme tall ya.
I'll be able to get a 5 hour break along the way, while building up a couple of extra hours to give the other driver for him to take a break (80 MPH in west Texas), and I'm good for about half way, maybe a little more. After that I'm gonna need my 8-9 hours. A swap was worked out, the load was delivered, and I was safe and alert the entire way. Can you imagine if I'd have taken that the whole way, though? For a few extra dollars, about the time the wall would hit me I'd hit early morning rush hour in Detroit, then the border, then drive across Ontario and then, when I'm at my most tired and least alert, with the response time of a snockered wino, I slam into Toronto at late morning for the delivery. No thanks.
With any load, you have to take a closer look at it than its dollar sign. Look at where it's going, what kind of conditions you're likely to encounter, and at what time of day you're going to encounter them. Can you get enough sleep, and can it be timed to minimize the adverse conditions you're gonna run into. For example, do you want to hit Nashville at 8AM and deal with the added stress and the 90 minutes it takes to get through it all, or can you time your sleep to hit Nashville at 6AM and pass through there in 15 minutes, and then take a nap?
When you answer that question about can you take this load and deliver it safely and on time, that's a serious question (it actually becomes a binding contract) and it shouldn't be answered without serious consideration.
Incidentally, to date, I have yet to turn down a load, go to sleep, wake up, and then never be offered another good run.
Be smart. Be safe. Be around to grab that dollar sign tomorrow.
Therapy is expensive. Poppin' bubble wrap is cheap.
You choose.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Turtle,
I see where you are coming from but I see this as a shared responsibility between management, safety and dispatch. The dispatcher does indeed dispatch but should watch out for the safety of the public and the drivers and the liabilities to the company. I think that the system is rather poorly setup if safety is the stop gap to the issue of hours. The dispatchers are given a lot of tools to handle the work and still find no excuse for this whether it is FedEx, Panther or ma and pa kettle’s expediting company.
I only am sticking my nose into this because of two reasons.
One is that people seem to be quick to defend a company (I admit doing it too) without remembering that every company has an obligation to ensure safe operations with everyone involved. It may not be conducive to business from the dispatchers or supervisors end but from the company’s end it may be the right thing to do. The one thing I have repeatedly heard from other drivers of this company is the quotas that are needed to be filled by the staff, which I question if it is true or not and the fact that many are told to take loads back to back which I know is true – both are poor business practices.
The second thing is the driver who is driving on borrowed time may end up killing someone, maybe me or someone in my family. If this would happen, I honestly don’t care at that point the circumstances why he was driving like this, I am going to go after the company, the dispatcher and the driver.
I see where you are coming from but I see this as a shared responsibility between management, safety and dispatch. The dispatcher does indeed dispatch but should watch out for the safety of the public and the drivers and the liabilities to the company. I think that the system is rather poorly setup if safety is the stop gap to the issue of hours. The dispatchers are given a lot of tools to handle the work and still find no excuse for this whether it is FedEx, Panther or ma and pa kettle’s expediting company.
I only am sticking my nose into this because of two reasons.
One is that people seem to be quick to defend a company (I admit doing it too) without remembering that every company has an obligation to ensure safe operations with everyone involved. It may not be conducive to business from the dispatchers or supervisors end but from the company’s end it may be the right thing to do. The one thing I have repeatedly heard from other drivers of this company is the quotas that are needed to be filled by the staff, which I question if it is true or not and the fact that many are told to take loads back to back which I know is true – both are poor business practices.
The second thing is the driver who is driving on borrowed time may end up killing someone, maybe me or someone in my family. If this would happen, I honestly don’t care at that point the circumstances why he was driving like this, I am going to go after the company, the dispatcher and the driver.