How do you feel about back to back runs?

bryan

Veteran Expediter
Hi

Do these loads all the time.Safely too. P2 figures your delivery time with this formula (miles to consignee divided by 47 mile per hour)they also add atleast 2 hours for longer trips.700 miles divided by 47mph = 15.5 hours + 2 hours = 17.5 hours.I maintain an average speed of 62 mph.700 miles divide by 62 mph = 11.2 hours.This gives me a 6.3 hour rest break which I take after 5 hours of driving.24 hour day - 11.2 = 12.8 hours not under load.

I had a hard time with these loads at first but then I found a system that works for me.
1.I don't arrive at a pick up anymore than 1 hour before scheduled
2.If the trip takes more than 6 hours to run I stop and take a rest break after 5 hours of driving.
3.I dont deliver anymore than 2 hour ahead of my scheduled delivery time.If it looks like Im going to be early I stop and take a nap.
4.After I deliver I go to the closes truck stop and go to bed and try to sleep at least 4 hours.

This system drives my dispatchers nuts and is very hard to get some of them to undertand.A lot of people feel that everything in this industry has to be done asap.I figure as long as I get the freight picked up and delivered on time then I did my job.Being early isn't always the best bet.
 

BigBuzd1

Expert Expediter
Been there done that...and almost never did anything ever again! If you catch my drift.

But remember even if you are in the midst of your first run, check with your dispatch and see what your ETA is and how many miles out you are...a 15 or 20 minute powernap can save your life...AND someone elses!
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Bryan,
OK now take your system and try back to back 700 Mile runs. It is not realistic to drive 1400 plus miles without proper rest.
 

M A WEBSTER

Expert Expediter
When I was on the road driving a 1T van. Not Driving anymore. I was signed on with P2 (4yrs). I was setting in western Ky (hopkinsville) for two days waiting for a load. Fri morning nothing came through. So I headed home to WV. Around 6pm I was around Huntington when the QC sent a load offer. Picking up in Washington,WV @ 22:00 hrs 2300 miles to California delivering Mon morning @ 05:00am. I took the load ,(50lb bag of resin) checked my routing on the laptop, figured how many miles I could drive before getting required # of 6hrs of sleep I needed along the way. I arrived at destitation 3hrs early. Enjoyed the trip, and seen some beautiful country on the way. I made $2000.00 on that trip. Left Ca after getting some sleep. Went to Vegas spent the night.On to Colorado and then back home to WV.(no load offers) If I were still driving Would I do it again? NO WAY All I seen was the $$$ in front of my eyes. I ran hard for them up to as many as 36hrs straight with no sleep. Turn down a load and your on their @#$% list.
On another load out of Va to Larado picked up load drove to west memphis. Had around 900miles to go and 24hrs to do it in. Pulled off in a rest area to get some sleep. Phone rang Why are you not rolling? ANSWER Need to get some sleep, dont have to deliver for 24hrs. A few minutes later a message came ove the QC for location to swap out the load with a team. Got to talking with the drivers,seems they wanted to visit a daughter in San Antonio. So I lost the extra 900m and they got to see their daughter. They play by their own Rules.


Only the GOOD survive
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Greg, I understand, and to a very large degree, agree with you about dispatch and that they should watch out for the safety of the public. Dispatch has to be at least somewhat mindful of what kind of burden they may be placing on a driver. But of course, the ultimate responsibility must be placed with the driver. I'm not one to defend the company, as I am merely leased onto them. They do some things that are worth defending, and some that are worth getting called on the carpet over.

I don't know about quotas and such. I would think there are some in place, or at least some kind of goal to keep as many trucks running as possible or practical, since the more a truck sits the less money everyone makes. I would also like to think that these goals or quotas wouldn't be filled at the expense of safety. I know it used to be that dispatch and safety were always at odds with each other, but that hasn't been the case very much in recent times. And with Panther, I haven't yet run across a dispatcher who tried to pressure me into a load, for any reason, actually, but especially if I'm in a situation where I just came off a load and need some sleep.

I still have that incident fresh in my mind where I was mandated to take a 5 hour break, or else I'd have the load taken away from me. It bothered me a great deal (still does) that that particular break wasn't for me, but rather it was to cover Panther's butt in the event that I got involved in an accident. They could show where I had a solid 5 hour break and would, ostensibly, be off the hook. I understand it, but I still don't like it. The problem I had with it is, that break actually put me in a position of having to drive a much longer single stretch after the break, a stretch that put me and others in more danger, than if I had been allowed to take my breaks the way I know that my body can best handle them.

Some people can take a 15-30 power nap and are good to go. Not me. I usually need a 90 minute minimum, and depending on my level of recent sleep, it might be 2 or 3 hours. But after that I'm good for 6-8 more hours. But after 6-8 hours I need another break. On the other hand, and it seems contrary to common sense, a 5 hour break makes me more tired than a 2 or 3 hour break. When I sleep much longer than 4 hours, my body demands the rest of it's 8 hours. So that 5 hour break did me no good whatsoever, and in fact, did me more harm.

So while some people can do a mandated 5 hour break, utilize the rest period to its fullest, and make the carrier happy at the same time, I am much better off, and safer, when I can take a 3 hour break and then a 2 hour break a little later on. If I have 9 more hours to go, I can stay at a relatively constant level of alertness if I can take 2 or even three short breaks. But if I take a 5 hour break and then try to do 9 straight hours, by the 8th or 9th hour I'm a danger to pretty much everybody. Again, depending on my level and state of prior rest.

And if it's a really long load, 1500 miles or more, unless I just woke up after 8 hours of sleep when I get the load, I'm gonna need a couple of full 8 hour sleep breaks in there. I can do only so far on 2 and 3 hour breaks.

It all depends on what kind of rest I've gotten in the last few days and where my body is. Because of the nature of expediting, one day you'll drive all day, the next it's all night, proper sleep management for me forces me to a position where every load must be looked at carefully. Sometimes I can take long loads back-to-back, depending on my level of rest, where the load goes, and how much sleep I can get along the way, and provided that I can get it at the proper times along the way. It also depends on how late I've stayed up playing on the computer. hehe

All of this, and much more, is taken into consideration every time I accept or reject a load. Dispatch, and especially Safety, simply cannot to do that on such a personal level. When I know how much time I have to sleep along the way, I'll pull over and take some or all of it, and dispatch sometimes freaks out, because they think I'm gonna be late. But if I were going to be late I'd have never pulled over, because I'd have never taken the load and put myself in the position of having to either take a break to sleep or keep driving while sleepy. It would be nice if dispatch could see my history and know that I've never been late before they freak. And Safety, with their mandated breaks, more often than not, when I'm told to take a break at this or that time, it's obvious that they aren't looking at my safety on a personal level. They can't, and I understand that. But they need to understand that I won't ever again allow a mandated break, for any reason, to jeopardize my own safety or the safety of others on the road. When I stated on the QC that I could take the load and delivery it safely and on time, I meant it. That's a contract that I'm literally bound to do, and I will, otherwise I wouldn't have said I would. Now leave me alone and let me do it. x(

I'll always take my breaks when I need them in order to maintain safe driving. Always. It's what I do for a living. That may or may not coincide with whoever it is in some cushy seat in a building far, far away who is trying to drive my van for me, tho, and that's fine. The problem is, there are a lot of drivers out here, too many of them, who need that butt in the cushy seat driving the van for them, telling them when to take a break, when to sleep, to baby sit them, to hold their hand. I've seen these drivers, met these drivers, talked to these drivers, and they scare me.

Too many van drivers drive with the mentality of a 4-wheeler. A van must be driven with the same mentality as that of a driver of a tractor trailer or a straight truck driver. A van driver hauling freight is supposed to be a professional driver. Act like it.

Do you think that if you turn down the load and go to sleep that you'll never be offered another load? I'd much rather have five, 500 mile runs in a week, than a single 2500 mile run. Instead of blindly accepting long loads or cherry picking based on dollar signs, cherry pick based on the rest and availability. You'll run more miles and be better rested when all is said and done. I know this because I average 2500 miles a week, and I'm uber lazy. I spend much more time thinking I should be doing this or that, than I do doing this or that.
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
84 Dews and a pack of trucker speed were clearly the cause of being ill at the end of the run and totally unnecessary. A van driver can easily get over 3 hours of sleep on a 700 mile run just by averaging 60mph. That's real easy to do in a van. If the driver was rested when he took the first 700 mile run, then he could easily get the rest he would need to be safe on the second run. This works for me and I've never had to engage in behavior that would make me physically ill.
 

fastman_1

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Back to Back Straight Thru....No
Back to Back with time for a good Nap....Jump on it







































Owner/Operator since 1979
Expediter since 1997
B Unit Semi Retired
Somedays are Diamonds and Somedays are Stones
Home is Wherever you Park.
The Price of Freedom is Written on the Wall.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
I'm trying to see the point of what they're doing, other than micromanaging the drivers. 24 hours, 900 mi, no rest, get it there. xxx amount of miles, pull over and get 5 hours sleep to cover our butts; doesn't matter if you're tired afterwards. Someone will end up taking a printout from the qc into the IRS and show up to Panther's door asking for SSI and medical insurance, if they don't watch it. They're bordering on an employer/employee relationship. Once that freight is on your truck, it's YOUR freight. They give you xxx amount of time to get it there, it's up to YOU to get it there legally, no matter what they say. I've never liked them for this reason.

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
900 miles in 24 hours? Piece of cake! There's plenty of sleep time in that. I don't think this gets into an employee thing. They make an offer and the driver has the option to say yes or no.
 

fastrod

Expert Expediter
He had 900 miles to go and 24 hours to get there. Panther pulled the load and he did not have a option to say yes or no on that decision. You can call it independent contractor or business owner or whatever but moves like this sure look like an employer/employee relationship. Same deal with the mandated 5 hour break or they take away the load.
 

cv4longhaul

Seasoned Expediter
I had a similar thing happen this morning. I had been off duty yesterday. To dispatch that means you've slept all day. You didn't do housework, paperwork, grocery shopping or laundry, or shovel snow you only slept and therefore are able to run. I had a load dispatched to me after I had only had about 4 hours of sleep. Since it was less than 300 miles I took it(thinking I could sleep after I got there). However, I made one of the dispatchers upset because I told them I was too sleepy to take another load and was putting it to bed. When they asked how I could possibly be tired after only 8 hours of work I informed them that I have a life other than just driving and I'd like to continue to live it. Then I promptly said good night and found a place to park and sleep. Some days I can run 800 to 1000 miles and still be wide awake but others I can't. Bottom line I know what I am capable of at any given time, and noone in dispatch is going to try to convince me I can take on something I know isn't safe. No Load Is Worth My Life.

Kathy
TST Expedited Service
#21096
Auntie Em, Auntie Em, Where am I????
 

bryan

Veteran Expediter
Hi

00:00 to 07:00 asleep 7 hours
07:00 to 11:00 shower,paperwork and killing time waiting on load offer
11:00 700 mile load offer with 20 miles to pick up
11:30 to 12:00 arrived at pick-up loaded and rolling
12:00 to 17:00 driven 310 miles
17:00 to 22:00 sleeping 7 hours + 5 hours = 12 hours sleep
22:00 to 03:00 driven 310 miles
03:00 to 05:00 nap 12hours + 2 hours + 14 hours sleep
05:00 to 07:00 driven 80 miles and delivered load
07:00 to 11:00 sleeping
11:00 to 12:00 arrived at pick up loaded and rolling
12:00 to 17:00 driven 310 miles
17:00 to 22:00 sleeping 14 hours + 5 hours = 19 hours 3 hours more than what most people get in 2 days
22:00 to 03:00 driven 310 miles
03:00 to 05:00 nap 19 hours + 2 hours = 21 hours thats 3 days worth in 2 days.
05:00 to 07:00 driven 80 miles and delivered load
This is no different than teams running a 5 on 5 off shift accept the truck isn't moving while Im sleeping.
Good luck
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
>Hi
>
>00:00 to 07:00 asleep 7 hours
>07:00 to 11:00 shower,paperwork and killing time waiting on
>load offer
>11:00 700 mile load offer with 20 miles to pick up
>11:30 to 12:00 arrived at pick-up loaded and rolling
>12:00 to 17:00 driven 310 miles
>17:00 to 22:00 sleeping 7 hours + 5 hours = 12 hours sleep
>22:00 to 03:00 driven 310 miles
>03:00 to 05:00 nap 12hours + 2 hours + 14 hours sleep
>05:00 to 07:00 driven 80 miles and delivered load
>07:00 to 11:00 sleeping
>11:00 to 12:00 arrived at pick up loaded and rolling
>12:00 to 17:00 driven 310 miles
>17:00 to 22:00 sleeping 14 hours + 5 hours = 19 hours 3
>hours more than what most people get in 2 days
>22:00 to 03:00 driven 310 miles
>03:00 to 05:00 nap 19 hours + 2 hours = 21 hours thats 3
>days worth in 2 days.
>05:00 to 07:00 driven 80 miles and delivered load
>This is no different than teams running a 5 on 5 off shift
>accept the truck isn't moving while Im sleeping.
>Good luck

Bryan,
I don't want to seem as an expert but sleep does not accumilate like that. I mean that you can not add sleep up like that and what you describe is basically a type of Polyphasic sleep which is a very dangerous sleep method for the profession we are in.

There have been study after study about sleep and to put this from another angle, the rules adopted by insurance companies generalize sleeping rules for an average person model. What this means that a bunch of people can not feel the effects of sleep depreivation but another group will feel the effects of not sleeping at a specfic time and it is the latter that the model is based on. I think that some inability of some individuals have been sited in safety reports, which led me to conclude is one reason that we seen bad policy planning with HOS.

After going through sleep deprevation training in the past and reading how people justify the need to run like this, I am now thinking that appying HOS to vans and any commercial vehicle is a very good idea.
 

bryan

Veteran Expediter
Hi

That is the problem with HOS rules they don't take into account how each person is different.They use cookie cutter rules.I can't run 10 hours straight even if I slept 8 hours before the trip and knew I was going to get 8 hours after the trip.

Even when Im at home I sleep no more than 6 hours at night and have to take a nap in the middle of the day.(old age or reverting back to kindergarden not sure which).HOS rules just leave me tired all day long.I feel that Hos rules are cruel and unusual punishment to the driver and a true safety concern for the motoring public.

After a few hours of looking out a windshield at the same thing I start to zone out.Either daydreaming or start to fiddle with the trucks gadgets like the radio or cb.I can't sleep when I feel tired because a goverment employee says Im not tired (thats bull)but I have to sleep even when I'm not tired (which is impossible)(even more bull) so inactuality I have gotten no quality sleep but the rules say I'm good to go.Mary made a good point when she said that dispatch thinks you have slept all day because you were at home when in reality your more wore out than if you would of been sitting in the truck.

Good luck.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Bryan,
I see your point but my point is exactly what you said; "That is the problem with HOS rules they don't take into account how each person is different.They use cookie cutter rules."

Regulations are not made to take in account any individual, they are to be applied uniformaly across the board for all to follow.

The present HOS regulation is flawed and follows the ATA and the companies that they represents' idea of what is in the best interest of thier managment philsophy. I think there are better ways to have HOS and follow the intent of HOS which is safety.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
If they gave the option of splitting sleeper time, they'd have solved nearly everyone's quandry. We'd have the option of taking it all in one shot, or breaking it up, according to our sleep patterns. I'm going to make up t-shirts that say "The HOS killed me!" so when I crash, they'll know what caused it.

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas
 

kwexpress

Veteran Expediter
KW Express
o/o till i die

When I ran with panther I had offers likre that all the time.
if your in a cargo van and the hos does not apply to you and shouldnt
its easy to drive 75 to 85 mph on the interstate so you should be able to average 50-60 mph you should be able to run 600 miles in 10 hours now if your carrier rates at 45 mph then in most cases you should be able to take a power nap 1 hour every 4 hours driving.
if you cant drive 4 hours non-stop then you shouldnt be here.

before you turn down loads like that I would offer the carrier options like say you got any vans along the way I can cross dock with.alot of times with the vans you dont even need a dock just lift the skids out of one van and slide them into the other.I have done that at a truckstop in route.some of a run is better than none.

if you want to complain about it maybe you should move to a regulated vehicle and pretend to have to work hard.

I hear it all the time this is the ambulance service of trucking
how about the next time your in a car wreck do you want the ambulance driver to say im to tired to do it.you know con-way used to swap freight out and the cargo van drivers would get mad.whats happend to the work ethic of this nation?
 
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