Hours of Service Rumor

G

guest

Guest
I heard a rumor that the hours of service are going to change back to were teams can run 5 on and 5 off at the first of the year. Has anyone else heard this or is this just something to good to be true.



Be safe....Grizz
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The only thing I've heard is Congress considering a bill to postpone the new HOS sleeper requirement until 1/1/06 for whatever little bit of good that's worth. I don't know the status of it though. I haven't heard anything about going back to the old system. Personally, I think 2 hours is a little short for a really good, restorative rest period. By the time the driver logs the starting and ending time in his favor as well as gets into the bunk that only gives maybe 1 hour of sleep. I'd like to see them go with 4 hours minimum instead of 8. That would give long enough to get around 3 hours sleep which would significantly help but wouldn't ruin a day the way 8 hours does.

Leo Bricker
OOIDA 677319
truck 4958
73's K5LDB
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
 

Crazynuff

Veteran Expediter
O.K. guys , I guess I'm going against popular opinion here but I can't see the problem and some drivers I've talked to agree with me . They feel anybody that can't drive 8 hours straight should find some other type of work . But what would it be ? Every employer expects you to work 8 hour shifts , sometimes 16 if a worker on the next shift doesn't show up . The thing is you don't HAVE to run 8 hours straight . You're not chained to the steering wheel . Don't you stop to use the restroom ? Would you lose that much income stopping a half hour to walk around , get some fresh air and a cup of coffee ? When do you eat - during your 8 hour sleeper berth time ? Everybody is different . I'd never run team but to me running 5/5 doesn't allow for adequate sleep . With getting in and out of the bunk you're not getting 4 hours sleep a break and you're stopping almost twice as often and it seems that would cause less efficient operation with fuel mileage ,etc.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
One major difference which makes the comparison faulty is that your 8 hour shift with Widgets Inc. is on a set schedule of the same hours on the same days. Your sleep pattern is therefore able to be on a set schedule as well. It is very different if you've slept several hours and awakened normally and then been awake 8 or 10 hours prior to getting that run which now requires you to do a 10 hour shift. The lack of consistency and regular hours makes this a very different situation than discussing a 9-5 job or the 11-7 night shift at Widgets.

Leo Bricker
OOIDA 677319
truck 4958
73's K5LDB
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I agree with Leo, but one step further.

Our great government has done so many studies in sleep deprivation and working conditions that these rulings stink of special interest and ignore established fact and other polices and rules for other industries (like airlines).

Honestly I feel the ATA is part of this change of rules, which they have the clout to bring to court the facts surrounding sleep deprivation and trucking to get an injunction to stop the rules but failed to do so.

The only way you are going to change this is get involved.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
>The only way you are going to change this is get involved.

This is very true. EVERYONE needs to join OOIDA, whether you are an owner or an independent driver who drives for an owner. You can get a $20 discount on membership if you give my name and member number when joining. If you don't want to use mine then find someone else and use theirs. I don't care other than wanting everyone to join. OOIDA is working for us and has a legal challenge going to get rid of this moronic HOS change. They are the only organization truly working for us. Support them.

Leo Bricker
OOIDA 677319
truck 4958
73's K5LDB
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
 

redytrk

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
I doubt that any study has ever been done to evaluate the quality of sleep in a moving truck.

Their sensors and recording devices would go berzerk,with the starts and stops for toll booths,weight scales,customs,traffic lights, traffic jams,the list goes on and on.

This is the reason most drivers cant sleep more than 4 or 5 hours at a time.

If such a study were ever to take place the result would probably result in a complete ban on using sleeper berth time,in a moving truck to count as required rest.
 

Crazynuff

Veteran Expediter
The 8 hour same schedule doesn't represent all jobs . Many companies running around the clock have 12 hour shifts . Work 4 day shifts , 3 days off , then come back and work 4 night shifts , 3 days off then back to days . I'm not being sarcastic or critical but if you have a " normal " day off and expect to become available again , why not take a couple of hour nap before becoming available and keep yourself rested ? As far as OOIDA goes , they won't get any more of my money . Their voice in Washington is more like a mouse squeak . As long as they keep openly critcizing organizations like the ATA they are going to have strong opposition for anything they propose . They failed on trying to make a surcharge mandantory and now admit they are giving up on it to " make better use of their resources " Yes , they are a convient source for services like insurance , etc. but they make their money doing it and looking around will find better service for less money . I tried using them but their representatives weren't very knowledgeable or interested in finding needed information .
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Apples and oranges again. Widget's 4 on 3 off swap days/nights is still a set schedule known well in advance. You can sleep at all the right times to accomodate it. It's fine to say take a nap however if you've been up 10 hours and just about to take a nap when the load offer comes in are you going to turn it down and nap or take it? That's the problem with the HOS forcing such long driving shifts.

OOIDA isn't perfect however they are by far the best of what's out there. Picking their fights where they have the best chance of success is just good sense. Your membership money doesn't go to profits for the insurance or other operations, it goes to representing us. I agree, they are smaller than I wish as well, but it's because every driver isn't joining and supporting them as they work for us. Any owner or driver who isn't a member is hurting themself as well as the rest of us.

Leo Bricker
OOIDA 677319
truck 4958
73's K5LDB
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
I don't run team and don't really want to until I can convince Heather Locklear to be my co-driver. But those I have talked to say that 5/5 works well because it's a short shift. Studies have shown that getting your rest in shifts is as good as 8 hours straight.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
>I doubt that any study has ever been done to evaluate the
>quality of sleep in a moving truck.

Actually some states (I think NY) did studies in the 70s with a moving truck.

It does not matter anyway becuase it has been proven for 70 years that sleep deprivation is a big contributor of death while operating machinery and a big contributor death in combat. navy has had 4 on, 4 off becuase of this for over 200 years and the Brits have had it going back a couple hundred more years.

Even if it is 4 hours on 4 off or 5 on 5 off, there is a break and rest period involved. 8 on 8 off is hard to do and 10 on 10 off is unreasonable and plain stupid.
 

Crazynuff

Veteran Expediter
The best answer would be to just let teams work out their own schedule and eliminate this regulated nonsense . How many accidents can they prove are fatigue related ? The driver that had the wreck that got PATT organized had a legal log book . Look at all those thousands of FEMA drivers running up and down the interstate . They are exempt from HOS . Has anyone heard of them having a wreck due to fatigue ? Some of them run 'til they drop running those "Emergency Relief " trailers . Give me a break . 90% of those trailers are going to staging lots because there are no hookups avaliable for them . Off topic but FEMA made the fuel shortage much worse by sending thousands of trucks to the Gulf with supllies /trailers that couldn't be used .
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
That's a big 10-4 on the regulated nonsense. They can make all the HOS rules they want, but a guy who wants to do whatever he wants, will.
 

Dynamite 1

Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
i do run a team and agree w/all, as far as hos are concearned. for those teams that are having trouble, you can manage to get on a pretty regular schedule w/some good trip planning. i posted what we do to achieve this previously. it may not be perfect for everyone but it does help us. if you have questions, post them and we will try to help. just hate to see anyone quitting because of the HOS.
 

x06col

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Retired Expediter
US Army
I worked with a couple guys that I was going to put in a truck as a team here a while back, neither could "stand up to the plate" for over 5-6 hours without getting exhausted and stressed out. Against my better judgement, I teamed them up anyway. Didn't work. I guess the message is, if you can't stand the heat of the regulations, quit teaming (or taking team loads) or, just plain quit.
Adapt and overcome
 

Critter Truckin

Expert Expediter
>I worked with a couple guys that I was going to put in a
>truck as a team here a while back, neither could "stand up
>to the plate" for over 5-6 hours without getting exhausted
>and stressed out. Against my better judgement, I teamed them
>up anyway. Didn't work. I guess the message is, if you
>can't stand the heat of the regulations, quit teaming (or
>taking team loads) or, just plain quit.
> Adapt and overcome

Here's the thing... if a team has a set way of things to work, why tip the apple cart? If you have one person in the team that's going to run 5-6 hours, then why should the other run 8 and force their teammate to run dangerously?

The point of the matter is this... If you are willing and able to run 5-6 hours and get the job done as a team... then why would you want to force another to put their sleep out of whack to "stand up to the plate?"
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
Crazynuff...

It's easy to look from the outside and surmise what others should do, according to what seems logical. Wallah! That's how Washington got this stupid HOS rule.

If you haven't run team, and don't plan on it, how can you assume the things you say? For most of us, 4 to 5 hours is all we CAN sleep in a moving truck. Plus the fact that you may be up all day waiting for a load that doesn't come until 10pm, then are expected to pull 8. For me, 5 hours is premium when running teams. That's not saying I can't run more. I just got done with one of those solo "borderline" runs where you get just enough sleep to get it there on time. But running team 8/8 or 10/10 as teams means you're actually getting 5 hours of quality sleep... afterwhich, you're refreshed and ready to drive, but it's not your time yet. So 3 more hours of twidling your thumbs, and it's your turn to punch the clock.

Try this at home... sleep 8 hours, stay awake 8 hours, then force yourself to sleep 8 hours again. My guess is you'll feel like crap! Single drivers don't have a clue, IMO, unless they have driven teams.
 

Broompilot

Veteran Expediter
Tennessee Hawk has it right. I try to rest for (10) hours what a joke the rules say I must stay in the bunk doing what? I cannot sleep for 10 hours in this truck not moving let alone 8. 4-5 hours during sun up is all I need.

This is the govt. overreaching way way way to far. I for one aint stayin in the bunk for 10 hours but am forced to log it OK yeah go ahead all you do gooders point at me for Ok breaking the law but whos law? People who have no idea what a air break is let alone where to find the horn, string or is it on the steering wheel?

I believe regulation needs to be involved in this industry but what in the heck is going on in Washington is beyond me. How is the average driver suppost to know how to stay in compliance, take a look at our Weight Requirements if your tire is 9.5 inches wide you can have this much in MO but only this much IO give me a break.

Most of you have great points here but it all comes down to this. We should be allowed to drive 13 hours in a day totalon duty for no more than 14 hours. Ten off than drivers would remaine on a steady schedule waking up and going to sleep at the same time from PU to delivery. I know it would change depending on the PU time but at least it is much more consistant than a 22 hour changing shift. As one post said if you cannot stay behind the wheel for 8 hours than why I ask why are in this industry.

I have adapted to different sleep times and I to strugle to stay awake at times, I have adapted as hard as it is to do so, I know when I have the hardest time staying awake (late afternoon and between 2:30 am and 4 am )so these are my nap times if I have a run.
 

mhoy40

Expert Expediter
yall dont forget that this dont only effect teams this effects the buisness as a whole even the singles like me because with the old rule i could say take a run from say detroit to grand rapids go to the bunk for the amount of time it takes for dispatch to find another load lets say for arguement sake it go's back to detroit. with old rule i could leave detroit at say 6:00 am get to grand rapids at say hypothetically its winter and its snowing and icee and i dont get there till 11:30(because of the mourons that have lived in the north all there lives an forget how 2 drive in this crap every year) thats five and a half hours of driving. under the old rule at that point i could go to the bunk and say spend 6 hours there waiting for next load back to detroit and make it legally back without affecticting the 14 hour rule because that 6 hours spent in the bunk extended my day by that 6 hours. with the rule the way it is now that 6 hours in the bunk is slowly but surely eating that 14 hour clock away with every tick of the clock. so now if i drive that 5 and a half then spend 6 in the bunk and get that run call at as say the 6th hour but it dont pick up say for 45 minutes, spend a half hour getting loaded at the shipper at this point now under the new rule i have used about 11 hours and 45 minutes of my fourteen hours and i probally dont make it back to detroit legally. this may not be the best description but u get the idea. so jus t remember this rule affects the bottom line of every driver out there weather single or team and i know because i have done both.

lets also not forget that the board that came up with all these nice rules and changes come from the schnieder and wal marts and the bigger drop and hook companies that the rules dont really affect anyway. where the expediters voice coming from on this board or panel whatever it is oh yea thats right they forget to invite us to the party.
 

Crazynuff

Veteran Expediter
I didn't say I haven't run team . I should have said I wouldn't run it again . True , expediters are a whole nother way of running . If OOIDA was worth their dues they could do something for you but when they come up against WalMart and their lobbyists they get nowhere . Now staying up 8 hours , sleeping 8 , being on 8 - . I've worked 12 hour rotating shifts . When I worked 4 days , was off 4 and came back to a 4 day night shift do you think I slept before working all night ? I also supervised 12 hour crews working at power plant outages . We'd be the first ones in , set up , work 12 hours and our relief didn't show up . Some crews would work 24 hours straight in these cases but I'd shut the job down after 18 . I know how long people should be able to work but it is apples and oranges . The whole HOS deal is nonsense . I agree no one needs more than 5 or 6 hours sleep . If someone can find a good codriver and run team good for them . They shouldn't be forced to follow regs that keep them from getting proper rest . My problem with splitting sleeper times is with dispatch abusing solos . You might take 10 hours off then drive 2 and unload . Dispatch has nothing so they tell you to get in the bunk . Are you going to get any rest ? Then 5 hours later they call and since you only ran a couple of hours before going in the bunk they can expect you to drive 9 hours . Now if 8 hours is too much for a team driver should a solo be expected to run this way ? It was happening all the time .
 
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