HOS thoughts from ATA

roadeyes

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
You will need to get Molly Fedex approved. Even though she can't drive, at least she could log as on duty not driving and pull guard dog duty to keep the load secure while you two are resetting your clocks!:p

Seriously though, when are the powers that be going to realize that you can't legislate sleep/rest???
You could only be given one hour a day to drive and still be fatigued when you get behind the wheel!

Up here north of the border we already enjoy two hours more than you do and nobody here is looking at rewriting anything again ( at least I hope not).
 

TeamCaffee

Administrator
Staff member
Owner/Operator
I thought about getting Molly FCC approved, but I do not think she will pass the age test. She turned 15 in November and she is showing her age a little. She has become fond of her naps and for some reason I do not think work is in her vocabulary!

She is accustomed to the life of luxury and for some reason we enjoy keeping her there!

The new rules will be interesting, but I do not see them hitting us as hard as the last rule change did. Changing from 5 hours of driving to ten or eleven hours of driving was a hard transition.
 

BigBusBob

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I thought that was a very interesting article... especially when the article rattled on and then at the end they quoted the ATA as saying basically that they will fight with all their powers to keep things the way they currently are with the HOS.

I hope they do make us take a mandatory rest period during a shift... whether it be 15 min. or 1 hour. They should further classify the break to show that no fueling or job related duties can be performed during that break- so we can use that time to eat, use the restroom, and/or sleep.

with that said, after the break- our time should extend to make up for that break... so if it means driving past midnight so be it. but= if we drove 15 min. or one hour past midnight that should not be counted against the next day... IF it's time for an 8 or 10 hour rest period.
Because if it's 1 am and I'm bunking down for 10 hours on my log book, @ 2pm or 8pm I should still by log book regulations have rested and be ok.

Another thing is that I don't think they should extend the 34 hour re-start. 34 hours is plenty of time... 34 hours can really hurt a solo driver in pay and performance. Not to mention I'm sure it hurts freight movement to some degree in certain situations. 24 hours was plenty of time! if anything they should just cut off 4 hours to make it 30 hours. Although, if on home time for a weekend, 34 hours is nice.
What could be done is keep the 34 hour re-start and give us back split logging.

After all, the article did say they saw no change in drivers,
just reduced pollution in the air. I kind of sensed that the article was saying (or at least wanting to say) that CVA or CSA 2010 driver health stuff was a waste of time.

Thats my 2 cents.
BBB
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Wasn't the ATA supporting the change in the HOS in the first place while letting the DOT get away with the BS statement that these changes have been scientifically derived after 'years' of studies?
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Deborah Lockridge (Editor, Heavy Duty Trucking), recently quoted a freight transportation forecaster who said that the expected changes in HOS would create overnight the need for an additional 150,000 trucks and drivers.

I don't know if the HOS changes would have that effect or not. I do believe that such an effect would increase the demand for expedited freight transport. In other words, good news for us!
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Another thing is that I don't think they should extend the 34 hour re-start. 34 hours is plenty of time... 34 hours can really hurt a solo driver in pay and performance. Not to mention I'm sure it hurts freight movement to some degree in certain situations. 24 hours was plenty of time! if anything they should just cut off 4 hours to make it 30 hours. Although, if on home time for a weekend, 34 hours is nice.
Thats my 2 cents.
BBB
You know what would happen if the restart was reduced to 24 hours? Some companies would set their hometime AT 24 HOURS. "There you go driver, your clock is restarted, so get back out there. The government says that's all the home time you need."

One company I was with had a minimum 34 hour home time, but it was usually longer. Then I changed dispatchers and that changed immediately. He made it his goal in life to limit drivers to the minimum time off. He would beat the bushes for freight and move heaven and earth to get you home only 34 hours at a time. That's not enough time to even get laundry and other things done at home, let alone to do those things AND relax.

Cut restart time to 24 hours and watch trucking companies reduce their home time to match.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Cut restart time to 24 hours and watch trucking companies reduce their home time to match.

The talk is not of a cut to the restart time. It is of extending the restart time by cutting driving hours.
 

BigBusBob

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I have worked on both rules, the old rule, and the new 14 hour rule. actually I still do work on both rules... in the bus business- it never changed!!! How logical is that? Haul dog food or a piece of metal machinery down the road you got to sleep 10 hours. haul human beings down the road? you can get by with 8 hours sleep. do you really think bus drivers get 8 hours sleep? I love the 10 hour sleeper berth time limit!!! I actually get 6 to 8 hours of sleep... if not more than that!!!

When out on a sight seeing tour, esp. a multi-day tour of say NYC and DC or down to Biloxi/New Orleans area- after cleaning the bus and doing paperwork- your lucky to get 4 or 5 hours sleep.

if I'm runnin' freight to MI or NY, I know I got time to sleep due to the laws.

Either way the system can be used and abused. it's a matter of knowing how to use the system, which you can't tell me as drivers you have not ever used the system in ANY way shape or form to your advantage.

The notion of them cutting the 34 hour re-start down? Not likely. The notion of them cutting driving time down? possible... but by how much?

Look at the big picture, you cut drive time- that means expediting gets more work... but if they (the government/law makers) are so freaked out about pollution and idle time and idle laws... then they won't cut it too much- because if they do that means more trucks on the road more often to keep the freight moving... with teams. which is all fine and dandy, but it costs money to co.'s and/or owners.

more fuel to run more often.
more wear and tear on equipment, more repairs
more often.

Wait, I just had a brainstorm... it's their way of Boosting the economy!!!
They cut drive time, they need more drivers...
they need more drivers,
then they need more parts to fix the stuff the stupid drivers break in an effort to get the freight there. (because somebody still has to drive when the smart drivers are sleeping)
What an idea!!! HaHa.

Cut drive time down. keep 34 hour restart to do laundry.
Boost the economy with Kenmore? parts movement increase.

Now... Smile! you know its funny!
Triple B
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
The notion of them cutting the 34 hour re-start down? Not likely. The notion of them cutting driving time down? possible... but by how much?

The talk I hear is of cutting drive time to 10 hours per day from the currently allowed 11, and of extending the reset time to 44 hours from the currently allowed 34. This is scuttlebutt, not a known fact, but these numbers seem to be filling in the blank that the facts will replace when FMCSA announces. Those are the numbers behind the estimated need for 150,000 additional trucks and drivers.
 

TeamCaffee

Administrator
Staff member
Owner/Operator
I am hearing the same thing you are Phil with a mandatory rest break during our driving shift. I have not heard how long the break will be.
 

jjoerger

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Army
Any idea how it would effect team operation?
How about the sleeper berth time?
We we still be able to run 70 hours in 8 days?
Will we still have a 14 hour window before our clock runs out?

We run 10 on and 10 off now. We usually take an hour break between switching drivers for a meal and most of the time we take an on duty not driving break for fuel during our 10 hour drive period.

Maybe the OTR companies will let there trucks run 70 MPH to make up for lost driving time. It won't be safer, more fuel efficient or put less pollutants into the air but it would balance out the miles for the loss of an hour.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Any idea how it would effect team operation?
How about the sleeper berth time?
We we still be able to run 70 hours in 8 days?
Will we still have a 14 hour window before our clock runs out?

These are all good questions but the FMCSA is staying mum until the official announcement is made. The announcement is expected soon but the date is unknown.

What will be announced is a proposed new rule, not a new rule. The proposal will be kicked around in public discussion for months before anything goes into effect. And even after a new rule goes into effect, yet another court challenge may follow if certain parties do not like the rule.

This HOS dance between powerful parties has been going on for years, leaving it up to us to adapt to whatever changes are imposed on the drivers.

It is best, I think, to simply wait for the announcement to be made. At that point we will know what exactly is being proposed. My sense is that whatever we team expediters lose in drive time, we will more than make up for in increased demand for our services and higher rates.

I am not worried about how a mandatory rest break during a driving shift would affect team operations on security loads.
If the proposed rules forced a team to stop a truck for a while and both drivers to go off duty, companies and government agencies who need at least one team member to be on duty with the freight at all times would likely enter the debate.

These are not lightweight companies and agencies. They have the political power to bypass the debate altogether and have Congress or the administration to create a special exception to HOS for them.

Such exceptions are not without precedent. HOS relief has been given to trucks involved in disaster relief. Some farm states give HOS and axle weight relief to trucks hauling crops in the harvest season.
 
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BigBusBob

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Big good question... how would 44 hours of restart time benefit anybody?

I mean besides the teams?

The way most solo's will see it is:
big co.'s want teams, and it's an easy way for them to get their teams...

because with 44 hours restart time, they (companies as a whole) will only really need solo's for regional work.

34 hours restart time is a stretch of time as it is.... for a solo you have to color the book really good and watch your "numbers" fairly careful now with 34 hours.

10 hours drive time I'm fine with.

what about sleeper berth times and split logging issues? The talk of 44 hours restart times will require more teams to run more miles... so feds can say goodbye to all their emissions control work,

your cutting 60 miles off... which sometimes can make a biiig difference. esp. @ am and pm rush hour drive times.
 

Dynamite 1

Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
for the most part, things really have to go bad for a team to need a restart every week. if things go well as far as loading and unloading, a team can run alot of miles without the need for a restart. hours fall off every day.

what i see being the problem will be the break in the middle of the driving shift if this becomes actuality. the problem for the driver will be if that goes into drive time or on duty not driving and not off duty or sleeper berth and doesnt count against your day. it will also cause a problem for all else involved in the way of transit time. any runs that are 15hrs or less this will add 1 or 2 hours to depending on the break mandated. 3 to 4 hours over 15 hours and 5 to 6 on a cross country trip.

it will be a while before any of this is in force, but there will be a change. that is the one thing we all can be sure of. we need to be reigned in because crash statistics are up and its all the fault of trucks. we are regulated on drive time, sleep time and everything else cause we are dangerous. working mom and pop are way safer than us and know better what we need to do. after all they can get up at 5 am. commute an hour to work, work all day. go to the gym or whatever. commute an hour home, pick up the kids go have supper. come back home. watch tv or whatever go to bed at 11 get back up at 5 am. and do it all week long. then on friday decide to go away for the weekend and drive all night to get there. all while being safe and doing nothing more than worrying about the unsafe trucks all around them. since we are all around and dangerous they must cross 3 lanes to get their exit, get in front of us at all expense [outta sight outta mind]and all the other crazy thing we see them do. well not crazy, they are just keeping safely away from those trucks. after all, we are dangerous.

while that was a rant, it is a big part of the problem. the motoring public just doesnt see that what they do every day is basically the same as we do. they drive to work and live their lives and we drive to live our lives and so they can have the things they need. as long as all these public activist groups keep pushing we will keep seeing changes. what i dont understand is why some of the large truck organizations have not pushed back in the same manner. lets go after regulation on all the motoring public that travel in the name of work. maybe if some stink is brought about, at least some of the public would see it from our point of view. that is what needs to happen. the motoring public needs to see it from our point of view with a little help from regulation. really not that much of a stretch, they are already regulating teen drivers by the times they are allowed to drive and the number of passengers. of course this is all just wishful thinking on my part. with any luck i can be done with the road before i have to have a full physical and blood work done everyday before i drive. lol man, i promise, i put the coffee cup down.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Big good question... how would 44 hours of restart time benefit anybody?

Safety advocates would suggest that a restart time extended to 44 hours would benefit everybody by providing a better rested driver pool.

A cynical observer might suggest that it would benefit union advocates who have a voice in the current administration and Congress (before the election) by forcing independents into a required break and reduced productivity that more resembles the weekend union drivers get off, thereby leveling the marketplace playing field more in the unions' favor.
 

Dynamite 1

Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
that is a very big possibility and an almost truth. leveling the playing field is a phrase that has been thrown around a bunch.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I think it's a combination of leveling the playing field, and the fact that the people making these decision are people who work an 8 hour day, think 40 hours in a week is a lot of time to put in, and think an 8 hour drive is exhausting.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
for the most part, things really have to go bad for a team to need a restart every week. if things go well as far as loading and unloading, a team can run alot of miles without the need for a restart. hours fall off every day.

That is true with an important exception; teams who do security loads where the customer is paying to have one team member awake with the freight at all times. Diane and I do not often run out of hours in a week but it does happen from time to time when we are on security loads.

Time logged as on-duty-not-driving counts against the available driving hours you have. Run a security load where you spend a night or weekend waiting to deliver and your driving hours can get eaten up. Run a couple of those in a week and you will need to take time off to reset.

That's never been a problem for us. If we are out of hours in a week, we are happy to take a break anyway. Whether it would be a 34 or 44 hour break under the new rules is of little concern to us.

it will be a while before any of this is in force, but there will be a change. that is the one thing we all can be sure of. we need to be reigned in because crash statistics are up and its all the fault of trucks.

That's the myth. The fact is crash statistics are down and in about 70 percent of the car/truck crashes that happen, the car driver is at fault, and only a small percentage of all truck accidents are attributed to genuine driver fatigue.

I say genuine because the way violations are reported, driver fatigue includes something like a driver who has been on the job for two hours after a weekend break but got caught without a log book in his truck because he forgot it at home. He is not tired, he forgot his log book but the violation gets reported as fatigue.

A major reform would be to change the language such that paperwork violations are called paperwork violations and fatigue violations are called fatigue violations. But trumping up the number of so-called fatigue violations serves certain players in the debate and I suspect that they were clever enough and present enough behind the scenes to influence the language when the rule language that would be later discussed was being drafted by some fourth-level assistant to a sub-committee.

The 70 percent statistic suggests that the biggest risk there is to trucks on the road is four-wheelers. If you really want to reduce the truck crash hazard, it can be done by reducing the number of four-wheelers on the road. This actually happened in the Great Recession. People drove less. Four-wheeler miles were significantly reduced, and the number of truck crashes fell.

what i dont understand is why some of the large truck organizations have not pushed back in the same manner. lets go after regulation on all the motoring public that travel in the name of work. maybe if some stink is brought about, at least some of the public would see it from our point of view. that is what needs to happen. the motoring public needs to see it from our point of view with a little help from regulation.

It happens in a limited fashion but not enough to make a big difference. That is because, as you correctly stated, the motoring public is mostly blind to what truckers see. For every voting trucker, there are thousands of voting four-wheelers. The politics simply are not there to give truckers the voice four-wheelers have. A politician might agree that it would be a great idea to put speed limiters on cars but a politician who wants to get re-elected would know better than to introduce a bill that mandates speed limiters for cars.

And when a law is passed to improve the safe-driving practices of four wheelers, they are ignored. How long do you have to sit behind the wheel to see a speeding four-wheeler or texting driver in a state where texting while driving is illegal?

Because OOIDA does a very good job voicing our interests in Washington, I recently made a $500 contribution to OOIDA's PAC and litigation funds.

OOIDA has a Washington office that works behind the scenes to counter the anti-trucking activists and organizations that are also there. OOIDA regularly initiates and/or participates in law suits that benefit us as well.

A recent and very much appreciated example is OOIDA's suit against the state of Minnesota's ludicrous driver fatigue questionnaire that officers were using to put drivers out of service. That practice has stopped because of OOIDA's suit and we await a court ruling, hopefully to ban such questionnaires forever.

OOIDA does good work on the regulatory and legal front. I support that work by writing checks and I urge others to do the same.

Wishful thinking is not enough. Supporting organizations that push back against zealous anti-trucking advocates may also not be enough but it does help and it has a demonstrable positive impact.

If you are not inclined to contribute hundreds or thousands of dollars to the OOIDA PAC and litigation funds, you can still help in an important way by simply becoming an OOIDA member. By adding yourself and perhaps your spouse to the membership roles, you give OOIDA the ability to say in Washington that it repesents that many more people.

Such numbers are important when it comes to being heard in Washington. (Example: If the NRA represented 1,000 gun owners, the only response NRA people would get in Washington would be a polite brush off.) If you are not an OOIDA member, I urge you to join today. The fine magazine alone is worth the membership fee. By joining, you will help those who are doing good work to help owner-operators and other truckers.
 
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