Have a Coke and a smile

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Fresh water, or lack of it, is a problem, but a problem that can, and will be solved. Food production is no really a problem either. Most problems with lack of food are not caused by lack of production but are caused by politics.

I have no concern about forest levels in the United States, since they have been stable since 1900, and the quality of our forests has been increasing over the years. We could even do better with our forests if so many so called "greenies" were not fixated on old growth, climax, forests. These forests are net users of oxygen and need to be replaced as nature intended. Our fighting of forest fires also hampers the efforts to renew our forests, but overall we do a pretty dog gone good job in the United States.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Fresh water, or lack of it, is a problem, but a problem that can, and will be solved. Food production is no really a problem either. Most problems with lack of food are not caused by lack of production but are caused by politics.

I have no concern about forest levels in the United States, since they have been stable since 1900, and the quality of our forests has been increasing over the years. We could even do better with our forests if so many so called "greenies" were not fixated on old growth, climax, forests. These forests are net users of oxygen and need to be replaced as nature intended. Our fighting of forest fires also hampers the efforts to renew our forests, but overall we do a pretty dog gone good job in the United States.

what does sex have to do with this?.....LOL....great typo Joe.....
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
what does sex have to do with this?.....LOL....great typo Joe.....

Hardly a typo. An "old growth" forest is a "climax forest" which means it has reached the end of it's useful life cycle and is due for replacement. The protection of large stands of climax forests causes a net loss of oxygen. Young, healthy, vibrant trees produce more oxygen than old trees. Trees "eat" Co2 and eliminate oxygen. As trees age, they eat less and therefor eliminate less. Forests need to remain in a constant state of flux to perform as they are designed to do by nature. Some trees need fire to reproduce, yet for years we fought those fires, disrupting the process. SO, fuel loads increased and oxygen production decreased. We are slowly correcting this with controlled burns and allowing fires to burn as they should. Some fires have been too hot due to the unnatural fuel levels caused by fire surpression and some land was "sterilized" by the heat and will take longer to recover, but it will.

FOPAP: The truth about trees
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
There is no scientific proof of that statement, because the statement is hogwash based on something other than science, or even observed reality. There is science that shows exactly how much oxygen is needed to sustain people, and the number of people it will sustain.

It is impossible to know exactly how much oxygen is needed to sustain people and the number of people it will sustain as each and every person requires a different amount of oxygen.

This article (The Flow of Energy: Primary Production) is a rather dry read, and requires some homework, but it's all there. It's also an article that uses irrefutable data that gives global climate change folks fits.

Nothing is irrefutable.

The article is about with the Net Primary Production (NPP) of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] in the world related to human consumption. NPP is the amount of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] that is "fixed" (i.e., processed) by plants through photosynthesis minus the amount of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] that is produced by organisms through respiration. Therefore, to simplify things, the higher the NPP the lower the amount of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] in the atmosphere. The article cites the following table from Atjay et al. 1979 and De Vooys 1979 which breaks down NPP by the type of ecosystem:
(The numbers in the table are amount of surface area on Earth in km[SUP]2[/SUP] x 10[SUP]6[/SUP] and the second number is the NPP in petagrams.)


  • Forest: 31 / 48.7
  • Woodland, grassland, and savanna: 37 / 52.1
  • Deserts: 30 / 3.1
  • Arctic-alpine: 25 / 2.1
  • Cultivated land: 16 / 15.0
  • Human area: 2 / 0.4
  • Other terrestrial (chapparral, bogs, swamps, marshes): 6 / 10.7
  • Lakes and streams: 2 / 0.8
  • Marine: 361 / 91.6

The article uses these figures to calculate the amount of NPP that is currently co-opted for human consumption. For example, they assume that all of the NPP associated with cultivated land goes toward human consumption. They conclude that 30.7% of the terrestrial NPP and only 2.2% of the aquatic NPP is co-opted by humans. These numbers are of course based off of ~30 year old studies, but they have been updated and confirmed several times, and it's clear to conclude that there's still room for more human-based CO[SUB]2[/SUB] production before NPP goes to zero.

According to this 2002 study by Randerson, terrestrial heterotrophs (i.e., organisms that need to breathe oxygen, like humans) produce 82–95% of the CO[SUB]2[/SUB] represented by the NPP. Stay conservative and assume the higher amount: 95% NPP. That means that as long as the forests account for fewer than 5% of the total NPP then we should be fine. The forests produce 48.7 Pg, however, which is a little under 22% of the total NPP.

As you state this study is 30 plus years old. It is merely a snapshot in time. The table showing the NPP per ecosystem shows, quite correctly, that most of the NPP is derived from the Oceans.I would add that it is specifically Plankton that provide this product, the volume of which is decreasing daily.

To say that population will level off at 9 or 10 Billion or whatever arbitrary number is placed on it, based on this exercise, does not suggest that people will not be engaging in the behavior required for reproduction. The behavior will continue. For the population to level off indicates some type of carnage later. I say nip it in the bud now.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It is impossible to know exactly how much oxygen is needed to sustain people and the number of people it will sustain as each and every person requires a different amount of oxygen.
Exactly? As in the precise number of oxygen molecules required? No, you're right, they don't know exactly how much oxygen is needed to sustain people.

However, as a practical matter, they do know, exactly.

There's this thing called the International Space Station where they know exactly how much oxygen is required for the number of people on board, varying from 3 to 7 generally, and how long it will last. The life support system on the ISS is a mini version of the life support system on Earth.

On Earth, plants, algae, cyanobacteria and phytoplankton all split water molecules as part of photosynthesis - the process that converts sunlight, carbon dioxide and water into sugars for food. The hydrogen is used for making sugars, and the oxygen is released into the atmosphere. On the ISS the same thing occurs, except it's a mechanical photosynthesis process called electrolysis that splits the water molecules, and instead of using the hydrogen molecules to make sugars the hydrogen is either vented to space or it is reclaimed and combined with excess carbon dioxide from the air in a chemical reaction that produces water and methane, and the methane is vented to space. The chemical-mechanical systems in the ISS are much more compact, less labor intensive, and more reliable than a plant-based system, because they can produce exactly the right amount of oxygen to sustain people.

They don't produce more oxygen than they need because doing so is a waste of energy and oxygen, and they don't produce less than they need for clearly obvious reasons. They produce exactly the right amount depending on how many people they have on board.

Nothing is irrefutable.
See above.
refute, verb; to prove to be false or erroneous,

As you state this study is 30 plus years old. It is merely a snapshot in time.
As I also stated, the numbers on that table have been replicated and verified several times over the years, so no, it's not merely a snapshot in time, it's a snapshot that has been verified to still be accurate today.

The table showing the NPP per ecosystem shows, quite correctly, that most of the NPP is derived from the Oceans.I would add that it is specifically Plankton that provide this product, the volume of which is decreasing daily.
Has the volume of plankton ever decreased before? Has it ever been even far less than it is now? The answers to those questions will clue you in that the current state of plankton diminishment might not be the crisis that some are making it out to be.

To say that population will level off at 9 or 10 Billion or whatever arbitrary number is placed on it, based on this exercise, does not suggest that people will not be engaging in the behavior required for reproduction. The behavior will continue. For the population to level off indicates some type of carnage later. I say nip it in the bud now.
You wrongly assume it's an arbitrary number. It's not. It's a number derived by the math of of the known variables, on computer models (air, water, land, food), and on the observations and experimentation with other populations. Populations always expand to that which is sustainable, and then it levels off or is reduced. There is no reason to think the human population will be any different.
 
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