Have a Coke and a smile

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Few places are even paying minimum wage, at least not those who wish to retain their better employees. In reality, there should not even be a FEDERAL minimum wage. What business of the federal government's what an employer wants to, or is able , pay their employees? The Feds have NO idea what a job is worth. The Feds have no idea about much of anything when it comes to the economy. If they did we would not be 17 TRILLION dollars in debt.

The REALITY of the minimum wage is that it is a "stealth" tax increase, mainly on business, which will then be passed on to us. The drive to raise the wage is about buying votes and raising taxes on business. ANYONE who believes that this is about raising people out of poverty needs a life lesson.
 
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aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Of course, Planned Parenthood should be in the limelight. Many wonder why this organization would seek to hide its butcher shop deeds in the dark? For those who consider life to have begun at the moment of conception, the slaughter of innocents is beyond comprehension. For those supporting the aborting of babies for the convenience of the mother or father, it is not a great moral leap to support euthanizing the helpless elderly.

The total victims of the Third Reich's crematoria pale in comparison to those lost in today's abortion mills. Government sanctioned, no less.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
They're not doing it to help people get to see the drive in movies, lol.
When states give anything, it's considered an investment, one that will pay off by helping someone become self sufficient. That's a smart way to do it, if it works.

Not really. It is a investment in votes. If it was anything else, the ranks of the poor wouldn't be swelling. As for free or close to it internet, it is automatically offered when kids sign up for the free school lunch programs.

With regards to raising the minimum wage, that is nothing more than a Chinese magic cup game. Turtle has it right. It does nothing. The left like it because it is a feel good "stick it to the man" kind of thing. For every dollar you raise it, it will be raised on jobs at that rate. Unions in fact benchmark their pay on the minimum wage as well. So the bottom comes up alittle and so does the wages above that. Companies don't magically say "we have to eat that". Nope, they say they are going to pass the cost. Who is affected first and the most? The poor. Less jobs and what they buy will go up. So that raise they just got not only bumped others out of the basement jobs, they increased the cost of everything bought. At the end of the day they are where? At the same place they started or worse. Looking at past increases shown time and again this is the case.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Here we go again.....Individual beliefs as to when life actually starts....when is a person a person or just a microbe...
WHY even discuss it.....? You are not going to change your mind, I will not change my mind....so the whole discussion is a waste of bandwidth.....

in your engineered society....
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I don't think anyones minds will be changed either. But I will be happy if government gets out of it and doesn't require everyone to pay for it.
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
I don't think anyones minds will be changed either. But I will be happy if government gets out of it and doesn't require everyone to pay for it.

Honestly, I think everyone should pay for it. There are almost 9 Billion people on the planet today. In 1950 there were aproximately 2.5 Billion. The number is growing every day. Over Population is our biggest enemy as a society today. There is, quite literally, not enough oxygen being produced through photosynthesis to sustain many more people. Human civilization will end in the near future if the trend is not reversed. Truth.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"There is, quite literally, not enough oxygen being produced through photosynthesis to sustain many more people."


Where is there proof, in science, of this statement? This is one I have never heard. This one sounds like it is coming from the same "scientists" who are inventing man MADE climate change.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Here we go again.....Individual beliefs as to when life actually starts....
This is where the Bible Thumpers get on board the evolutionary biology bandwagon, because evolutionary biology shows, with an incredibly high certainty, that life begins at conception.

when is a person a person or just a microbe...
And right there is where they wanna pick and choose their ride and they they fall off the wagon, because the same evolutionary biology shows with the same certainty the difference between microbes, zygotes, fetuses and baby persons.

WHY even discuss it.....? You are not going to change your mind, I will not change my mind....
It can be very hard to set aside deeply held beliefs in deference to the truth.

so the whole discussion is a waste of bandwidth.....

in your engineered society....
I'm pretty sure that Google-Analytics, Google Adsense, and Lawrence would disagree with you on that one. :D
 
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letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
"There is, quite literally, not enough oxygen being produced through photosynthesis to sustain many more people."


This is one I have never heard.


Hmm...

Ok, here ya go.

EARTH CANNOT DIE FROM HUMAN OVERPOPULATION: LACK OF OXYGEN IS ANOTHER STORY


It's only common sense. Plants and trees create the oxygen we breathe. As more and more people occupy the earth, more and more plants and trees vanish. Some are eaten, some are just disposed of. Less of one thing and more of another is bound to change the bio structure.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
There is no solid proof that this is happening. There is as much argument on this subject as there is about man made climate change. There is not enough solid proof to impose taxes on anyone.

The birth rate in the United States has been falling for decades. Forcing Americans to pay taxes for abortions will have zero impact on world oxygen levels.

Live Births and Birth Rates, by Year | Infoplease.com
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"There is, quite literally, not enough oxygen being produced through photosynthesis to sustain many more people."

Where is there proof, in science, of this statement? This is one I have never heard. This one sounds like it is coming from the same "scientists" who are inventing man MADE climate change.
There is no scientific proof of that statement, because the statement is hogwash based on something other than science, or even observed reality. There is science that shows exactly how much oxygen is needed to sustain people, and the number of people it will sustain.

This article (The Flow of Energy: Primary Production) is a rather dry read, and requires some homework, but it's all there. It's also an article that uses irrefutable data that gives global climate change folks fits.

The article is about with the Net Primary Production (NPP) of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] in the world related to human consumption. NPP is the amount of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] that is "fixed" (i.e., processed) by plants through photosynthesis minus the amount of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] that is produced by organisms through respiration. Therefore, to simplify things, the higher the NPP the lower the amount of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] in the atmosphere. The article cites the following table from Atjay et al. 1979 and De Vooys 1979 which breaks down NPP by the type of ecosystem:
(The numbers in the table are amount of surface area on Earth in km[SUP]2[/SUP] x 10[SUP]6[/SUP] and the second number is the NPP in petagrams.)


  • Forest: 31 / 48.7
  • Woodland, grassland, and savanna: 37 / 52.1
  • Deserts: 30 / 3.1
  • Arctic-alpine: 25 / 2.1
  • Cultivated land: 16 / 15.0
  • Human area: 2 / 0.4
  • Other terrestrial (chapparral, bogs, swamps, marshes): 6 / 10.7
  • Lakes and streams: 2 / 0.8
  • Marine: 361 / 91.6

The article uses these figures to calculate the amount of NPP that is currently co-opted for human consumption. For example, they assume that all of the NPP associated with cultivated land goes toward human consumption. They conclude that 30.7% of the terrestrial NPP and only 2.2% of the aquatic NPP is co-opted by humans. These numbers are of course based off of ~30 year old studies, but they have been updated and confirmed several times, and it's clear to conclude that there's still room for more human-based CO[SUB]2[/SUB] production before NPP goes to zero.

According to this 2002 study by Randerson, terrestrial heterotrophs (i.e., organisms that need to breathe oxygen, like humans) produce 82–95% of the CO[SUB]2[/SUB] represented by the NPP. Stay conservative and assume the higher amount: 95% NPP. That means that as long as the forests account for fewer than 5% of the total NPP then we should be fine. The forests produce 48.7 Pg, however, which is a little under 22% of the total NPP.

However, 13.6 Pg of NPP associated with forests is co-opted for human consumption (getting wood for building houses, etc.). If we were to get rid of all of the forests we'd also get rid of that percentage that has already been co-opted. Therefore, if we were to get rid of all of the forests there would be a net loss of 48.7 Pg - 13.6 Pg = 35.1 Pg, which is about 16% of total NPP. That's just low enough to meet the lower bound of 82% CO[SUB]2[/SUB] production.
Therefore, there is a small chance that there will be enough NPP after getting rid of all of the trees for human consumption, but it is likely not the case. Furthermore, if we were to get rid of all NPP producers other than grass there would certainly not be enough NPP for human survival.

It's also important to note that, by far, the most productive producers of NPP are the open ocean, tropical rainforest, and temperate forest, so by deforesting as opposed to de-grassing we would be greatly reducing the efficiency of the global ecosystem. Also, there is also the matter of carbon storage. Trees store a good amount of the carbon from the CO[SUB]2[/SUB] they process in their trunks where it stays for a long time. Grass, on the other hand, releases its carbon back into the system shortly after it dies and rots away. Therefore, even if grass does produce enough oxygen for life, it probably wouldn't have the same greenhouse gas reducing capabilities as trees.

But what all this means is, with the current level of plants and trees in the ecosystem, the amount of oxygen produced by photosynthesis and the NPP is enough to sustain roughly 90 billion people.

However, there are many more factors to consider than just the NPP and the amount of oxygen produced. It's more complicated than trying to predict the weather, and considerably more complicated than trying to predict climate change. Other immediate things to consider are things like the nitrogen cycle and the availability of phosphorus, because these have a direct effect on not only how much fresh water is available, but also in how much food can be produced to feed the population.

If things continue the way they are, including cutting down trees which are the primary factor of NPP, then the current world population of about 7 billion (not 9 billion) has little room to grow, and will max out, when you factor in both NPP and the ability to feed the population, somewhere between 9 and 10 billion. And between 9 and 10 billion is just about the place where the population will stabilize. As Dave's link noted, populations are already slowing down. UN estimates of global population trends show that families are getting smaller. Empirical data from 230 countries since 1950 shows that the great majority have fertility declines, in fact.

Globally, the fertility rate is falling to the "replacement level," which 2.1 children per woman, the rate at which children replace their parents (and make up for those who die young). If the global fertility rate does indeed reach replacement level by the end of the century, then the human population will stabilize between 9 billion and 10 billion.

The thing is, if the fertility rate doesn't fall to the replacement level, it'll still almost certainly end up stabilizing at between 9 ans 10 billion, so sayeth the Earth, because while there will be plenty of oxygen to support far more, there won't be enough fresh water or food to feed them, even if we all started eating Soylent Green.
 
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