Guy Gets caught breaking into trailers, Killed

[OntarioVanMan]

A belief, that if acted on, likely would result in one being employer-less ...

like walking in on a gang of 8 or more with a 6 shooter....LOL

 

[RLENT]

I still hadn't got my head around the statement you made several times about "justice being freedom from crime" when I read the one about the "two kinds of people".
Seriously, what planet do you live on, where either [much less both!] of those statements is true?

Very good question ...

Justice is the action that a group takes on an individual, or individuals, after they have violated transgressed the moral code (in the case of most governments, codified in law) of the group.

Additionally, there is no "right" to "feel safe" ...

(Geez ... and people accuse me of being unrealistic and utopian ... )

 

[Turtle]

At the risk of sounding all Utopian and stuff, there is, however, a fundamental human right to freedom from fear, one of the Four Freedoms declared in FDR's January 6, 1941 State of the Union speech, coincidentally named The Four Freedoms Speech, and makes up the foundation of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, of which the United States was not only the originator and principle drafter, but had its Allies in WWII use as their Basic War Aims.

The Four Freedoms
Freedom of speech
Freedom of worship
Freedom from want
Freedom from fear

 

[OntarioVanMan]

At the risk of sounding all Utopian and stuff, there is, however, a fundamental human right to freedom from fear, one of the Four Freedoms declared in FDR's January 6, 1941 State of the Union speech, coincidentally named The Four Freedoms Speech, and makes up the foundation of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, of which the United States was not only the originator and principle drafter, but had its Allies in WWII use as their Basic War Aims.

The Four Freedoms
Freedom of speech
Freedom of worship
Freedom from want
Freedom from fear

Oh I see....Now you'll like the UN....because it suits your argument..poke poke......usually this crowd is anti UN and trying to sell the building....

 

[Turtle]

Oh I see....Now you'll like the UN....because it suits your argument..poke poke......usually this crowd is anti UN and trying to sell the building....

I took great care to show that the Four Freedoms, while being the foundation of the UN's Declaration of Human Rights, is not a set of concepts that came out of the UN, but came instead directly from the United States, was laid upon the Allies of WWII as the founding principles of the War Aims, and only then became adopted by the UN. As to the fundamental human right to be free from fear, the UN is irrelevant. All the UN did was facilitate other countries around the world to adopt the same fundamental concepts.

The right of privacy, the right to be left alone, the right to be free from fear and to feel safe, all are inextricably woven into the tapestry of the US Constitution, of which its enumerated rights are there to ensure.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I took great care to show that the Four Freedoms, while being the foundation of the UN's Declaration of Human Rights, is not a set of concepts that came out of the UN, but came instead directly from the United States, was laid upon the Allies of WWII as the founding principles of the War Aims, and only then became adopted by the UN. As to the fundamental human right to be free from fear, the UN is irrelevant. All the UN did was facilitate other countries around the world to adopt the same fundamental concepts.

The right of privacy, the right to be left alone, the right to be free from fear and to feel safe, all are inextricably woven into the tapestry of the US Constitution, of which its enumerated rights are there to ensure.

woven into the tapestry...nice.....somewhere I read right to be free in the Constitution but not the sub categories you refer to....is this a further translation?....

 

[RLENT]

At the risk of sounding all Utopian and stuff, there is, however, a fundamental human right to freedom from fear ...

Thus saith Frankie ...

Freedom from "fear" (which fears ? ... all of them ? ... ad infinitum ...) is not ensconced as a enumerated right in US law so far as I know ... or even in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights ...

In the UN UDHR it is simply articulated (in the Premable) as "as the highest aspiration of the common people" ... not as a declared right.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

 

[Turtle]

woven into the tapestry...nice.....somewhere I read right to be free in the Constitution but not the sub categories you refer to....is this a further translation?....

I'm not sure what you mean by "sub category," but the single primary overriding fundamental right that guides everything in the Constitution is the right of privacy, which is what liberty is, because you can't have liberty without privacy. It is the freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, of hampering conditions. It is having the power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, according to choice. That's what Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is all about. The right of privacy is the the right to be left alone, the right to be free from fear and to feel safe, the right of liberty. Take a look at the Bill of Rights. Every enumerated right is based on the guiding principle of the right of privacy. Without the fundamental right of privacy, none of those right would have they meaning they currently represent.

 

[Turtle]

Thus saith Frankie ...

Freedom from "fear" (which fears ? ... all of them ? ... ad infinitum ...) is not ensconced as a enumerated right in US law so far as I know ... or even in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights ...

No, it's not ensconced as an enumerated right in US law (as far as I know), but there are plenty of unenumerated legal rights (sometimes referred to as implied, natural or fundamantal rights) which are inferred from other legal rights which are enumerated. The Ninth Amendment to the Constitution protects those very unenumerated rights, in fact.

In the UN UDHR it is simply articulated (in the Premable) as "as the highest aspiration of the common people" ... not as a declared right.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

The preamble lists the reasons for the following declared rights, which are declared as rights to protect the reasons listed in the preamble. The Constitution's Preamble works the same way, where everything spelled out in the Constitution is spelled out to ensure the things listed in the Preamble. Being that one of the highest aspirations of the common people is the freedom from fear, the list of declared rights is presented expressly for that purpose, it's why the declarations exist at all.

 

[skyraider]

Charles Lee Bell, 55, dead.

Was thinking-- no gun found, but the guys that beat Mr. Bell to death said he had one.

Without further details, did the guys that killed Mr. Bell commit murder?

If you and your buddies beat someone to death, using fist, and kicks, in a public lot and you say he had a gun and the cops found no gun,,,ugh,,,you might be brought up on murder charges. Imho: The guys that did the killing may be in deep sheetze with a good lawyer. But then again-- more info is needed.

Now for the guys that did the beating/killing : Would you dismiss those guys till they are cleared of this investigation into the killing or let them work. After all, the guys did kill someone for breaking into a trailer or trailers. If it had been daylight and witnesses in the parking lot, would they have killed Mr. Bell. You see a good lawyer can have a field day with this killing....I am just speculating.............................You are not guilty until proven guilty, u all do remember that is in our judicial system???????????????

 

[skyraider]

I don't know how the law reads in the Dakotas, but in TN if you catch somebody trying to steal something from your home you'd better shoot him while he's still inside the house and be able to prove the thief was a threat to your life and personal safety. Once he gets outside with your wife's jewelry you'd better have an option other than deadly force - because you can't use it to protect property. Maybe keeping a tranquilizer dart gun handy would be a good idea for situations like that, or perhaps a well-trained Doberman. It makes no sense to me to spend 30 or more years in prison in exchange for the righteous feeling you get from killing a common thief.

Regarding somebody stealing my employer's property - that's his problem; should have hired a security guard.

the above is correct. In permit carry class we saw training films on when to use your weapon and when you can't. If someone steals your car off your property, you cannot shoot them, but if such a person runs at you with a ball bat, or some kind of weapon or attacks you, yes you can shoot them. If you come across someone in your home and he tries to attack you, fire away.

 

[cheri1122]

At the risk of sounding all Utopian and stuff, there is, however, a fundamental human right to freedom from fear, one of the Four Freedoms declared in FDR's January 6, 1941 State of the Union speech, coincidentally named The Four Freedoms Speech, and makes up the foundation of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, of which the United States was not only the originator and principle drafter, but had its Allies in WWII use as their Basic War Aims.

The Four Freedoms
Freedom of speech
Freedom of worship
Freedom from want
Freedom from fear

The first two are attainable, the third is doubtful, and the fourth is flat out impossible.
"Want", in this context, means food, shelter, medical care [not XBox and iPhone & Air Jordan shoes, lol], but "fear" is a state of mind that's comprised of perception. It can be highly irrational, unjustifiable, and plain old nuts [phobias] - which doesn't mean it isn't 'real' to the person experiencing it, but it cannot be eliminated entirely.

 

[Pilgrim]

Charles Lee Bell, 55, dead.

Was thinking-- no gun found, but the guys that beat Mr. Bell to death said he had one...

Just a few random thoughts:

55 years old and breaking into trailers?? Were mental problems a factor?

How old were the guys that beat him to death? Maybe 20 or 30 something?

Of course there's the race card: all these guys must have been black - or all white. Otherwise Jesse, Al and Barack would have been all over this deal.

Maybe there's something more to the story we haven't been told...not that the msm would leave something out to advance political purposes.

 

[Turtle]

The first two are attainable, the third is doubtful, and the fourth is flat out impossible.
"Want", in this context, means food, shelter, medical care [not XBox and iPhone & Air Jordan shoes, lol],

Well, "Want" in this context means the right to an adequate standard of living adequate for the health and well being of themselves and their families. That includes things like food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, but it doesn't mean that it must be a high standard of living - only an adequate one. You can't just up and tell someone, "You don't have the right to eat, therefore you cannot eat, and we're not gonna let you," or "Sorry, but you don't have the right to wear clothing, or receive medical care, therefore you can't."

but "fear" is a state of mind that's comprised of perception. It can be highly irrational, unjustifiable, and plain old nuts [phobias] - which doesn't mean it isn't 'real' to the person experiencing it, but it cannot be eliminated entirely.

No, "fear" has a specific context, as well. Claiming it to be a state of mind that is subject to perception and highly irrational is nothing more than putting feat into the same category as an xBox for "want." It's creating your own conceptual context for the term. FDR specified exactly what he meant by "freedom from fear."

"The fourth is freedom from fear, which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor—anywhere in the world."

That means, in broad world terms, people in countries around the world should be able to live their lives and go to sleep at night while not having to live in fear of being annihilated. They should be able to feel safe in their place. FDR's comments were translated into world terms from regional, local and personal terms - people should feel safe and not fearful when they go to sleep at night.

Norman Rockwell illustrated that very concept with his "Freedom from Fear" painting, one of his four paintings in his "Four Freedoms" series.

 

[layoutshooter]

I do believe I kind of said that...thank you....
LOS believes he had a duty to stop his employers thief...

EVERYBODY has a "duty" to stop theft when ever and where ever they see it. That includes theft from an employer.

 

[xiggi]

Possibly a moral obligation but not even close to a duty. The word stop is kind of strong and misleading many would not even have the ability to stop it. Now if reporting is seen as stopping I can see the moral obligation coming into play.

sent from my Fisher Price - ABC123

 

[layoutshooter]

Possibly a moral obligation but not even close to a duty. The word stop is kind of strong and misleading many would not even have the ability to stop it. Now if reporting is seen as stopping I can see the moral obligation coming into play.

sent from my Fisher Price - ABC123

IF there is a safe way to stop theft I believe that everyone has a moral obligation to do so. Just as everyone has a moral obligation to stop someone from being beaten, raped, murdered etc.

Most places I have worked had rules regarding this. The rules spelled out exactly what the company wanted employees to do and what not to do. It is a responsibility of the employer to make clear what they expect of their employees in such matters. It is also the responsibility of the employer to insure a safe work place.

 

[xiggi]

Almost any company will instruct people to call authorities and not to confront a crook.

sent from my Fisher Price - ABC123

 

[OntarioVanMan]

authorities will even tell you...take details, every detail...be the best witness you can be...do NOT put yourself in harms way...

 

[Tennesseahawk]

I don't need a deep breath, nor do I need to relax. SOME of those in prison are there solely due to stupid laws, which we keep passing more of. Being a thief, for what ever reason DESERVES prison, anti-theft laws are NOT stupid. NO one has a right to steal. ONE shot, do the FIRST crime, do your time, get out, SECOND time? That's it baby, you are never going to see the light of day again.

Just like you said... stupid laws.