Government Run Health Care

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
There are many people who are crying and whining for a "single payer", government run health care. I wonder if they REALLY know how "good" that would be. Want long waits for care? What about "Secret" waiting lists to conceal long waits for care? How about waiting so long for care you die? ALL of that, and more, is what you get with government run health care.

Check out what is going on at the VA in Phoenix, AZ. Then you can add to that the messes we have seen at Walter Reed. Lest you forget the joys of the crap being done at Madigan Army Medical Center.

The VA and military systems are tiny compared to what a system that would cover (not) everyone in the country. Better wake up now or you COULD find yourself waking up DEAD while waiting for a visit to the DR.

A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list - CNN.com
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
A lot of people like the idea of a single payer system, and in a perfect world it has the possibility of working. In the US, not a chance. One can't point to any government program and call it a success.
You are correct in how the military medical operates. That is likely what you would get with any single payer system.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
A lot of people like the idea of a single payer system, and in a perfect world it has the possibility of working. In the US, not a chance. One can't point to any government program and call it a success.
You are correct in how the military medical operates. That is likely what you would get with any single payer system.

It is likely to be even worse. The government can't handle a couple of million in a health care system let alone 350 million. The greater the numbers, the greater the mess and the more fraud and corruption. That IS what will happen.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
A big part of the reason people want a single payer system is the trouble they're having with getting medical care already. So many doctors are specializing, finding a general practice family doc is tough, and the waits for appointments are much longer than seems reasonable. [When I first began seeing my doc, it was much faster and easier than it is now, and I never had to make an appt 90 days in advance.]
Single payer may not be an improvement, but many people don't see how it could be a lot worse, because it's already bad. And ridiculously expensive, too!
My mother is covered under Medicare, and it seems to work pretty well - of course, she needed the 'gap' policy, too, to cover what Medicare doesn't, but it doesn't involve long waits or high costs, and that's the experience most people have with 'single payer', I think.
The VA is a whole different system.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I'm all for a government run health care system. The government is so efficient and effective in everything they do. Who in their right mind wouldn't want the government in charge? They've done so incredibly well overall with Medicare and everything else they've put hands to. Yes, government health care. Absolutely. That's the ticket.
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I'm all for a government run health care system. The government is so efficient and effective in everything they do. Who in their right mind wouldn't want the government in charge? They've done so incredibly well overall with Medicare and everything else they've put hands to. Yes, government health care. Absolutely. That's the ticket.
Who are you? What have you done with leo? :rolleyes::p
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
He put on a pair of rose colored glasses by mistake.
Stylish!

roseglasses1.jpg
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Medical care in the United States is very expensive. I read somewhere, years ago, that many elderly people lose their life savings in the last few months of life as the result of being hospitalized for an extended period of time. Of course, hospitalization and life-saving medical procedures cost huge sums of money. Some folks, regrettably, lose their homes, businesses and entire estate due to medical bills. What to do?

More individuals will choose to die a cheap death. These individuals will rationally decide for themselves, if diagnosed with a terminal illness, to meet end-of-life decisions with as little expense as possible. For some it will be the choice to die at home; hopefully surrounded by family caregivers and perhaps hospice.

My father-in-law was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor 4 years ago. The physician said the tumor was the same type which struck Senator Ted Kennedy. My father-in-law was given nine months to live. He never spent a single day in a hospital. His choice. Instead, he chose to pass at home. He did receive palliative care from home-visiting nurses and hospice was especially helpful the last few weeks. His end-of-life medical bills were basically nil.

The man could have chosen to enter the hospital and undergo extensive treatment, buying himself maybe another six months to a year. At the cost of tens, if not hundreds , of thousands of dollars. Some of the bills picked up by taxpayers and some by himself or his estate. He chose to go as cheaply as possible.

My wife's uncle basically did the same thing: die cheaply at home rather than risk running up huge bills, risk losing a home. He was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer. He was treated for pain at home and passed quietly with little fanfare or cost. His home and estate remain intact for his widow's enjoyment. Given the choices made, I see such decisions as rational, even heroic.

Unlike the two men above, we have millions of people, without money or insurance, flooding into hospitals demanding state-of-the-art medical care with no regard for who will have to pick up the bill. This is the main factor in driving up medical costs. An unemployed drug addict can walk into an emergency room assured of being treated, then hit the strreets with little concern of ever paying the bill.

Rationed healthcare is coming. Most likely, government panels will decide how many healthcare dollars will be spent on your behalf. Will a $300,000 heart surgery be performed on an indigent person? Will Aunt Lucy be allocated $250,000 for a liver transplant? Will $$hundreds of thousands be spent on chemo and radiation for an 80 year-old grandmother who at best will gain an additional year of life?

Many middle-class individuals will choose to go cheaply. Especially, those who have a home and small estate. They will choose to pass this to their heirs rather than have it seized to pay medical bills. The wealthy will have the means to pay. The poor will not have the means. Not surprisingly, those who worked hard all their life to earn a living will have to make difficult choices.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The government will use health care as a cash cow. They have not ripped us off enough with SS. They want it all. The government does not now, nor has it ever, nor will it ever, have the best interest of the People in mind. They want health care for the control it gives them and the graft money that will flow. No other reason. If you think it is expensive now, what and see how much it is going to cost once it is free. You ain't seen nuthin yet.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
The government will use health care as a cash cow. They have not ripped us off enough with SS. They want it all. The government does not now, nor has it ever, nor will it ever, have the best interest of the People in mind. They want health care for the control it gives them and the graft money that will flow. No other reason. If you think it is expensive now, what and see how much it is going to cost once it is free. You ain't seen nuthin yet.

To the extent possible, opt out. Avoid participation. Go cheap.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
To the extent possible, opt out. Avoid participation. Go cheap.


We are not allowed to opt out. It is now MANDATORY! Not only is it more expensive now, it comes with a loss of freedom. The perfect storm. The word of the day is tyranny.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
By opting out, I was referring to people facing end-of-life medical decisions. They have the option not to enter the hospital in many cases. It's a decision for each person to make.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
By opting out, I was referring to people facing end-of-life medical decisions. They have the option not to enter the hospital in many cases. It's a decision for each person to make.

That is not the problem at that VA in Phoenix, they are not treating those who need it, and have earned it. Same thing is happening in the military. What is going on is criminal. It is deliberate.

As to the forced expansion of government control over health care, men are now forced to have OB coverage, as are women who are past the age of having children. Those without children are required to have pediatric eye care, and newborn care.

That is not how a free society operates, that is how a dictatorship operates.

The problems in the military and VA systems are just the tip of the iceberg. As government expands it's control, by force, over health care these problems will grow. Government is corrupt and the corruption grows with each power grab, like Obamacare.
 
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cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
By opting out, I was referring to people facing end-of-life medical decisions. They have the option not to enter the hospital in many cases. It's a decision for each person to make.

Tis - and I'd make the same end of life decision: palliative care only, no chemo/radiation or surgery to add a few months [of discomfort!] at a very great cost. [I've already told my family that if I get 'that' diagnosis, I'm heading for Oregon, lol.]
But I don't see a lot of people making that choice. Between the guilt imposed by religion, and that imposed by loved ones, and a culture that applauds only those who "fight", most people will allow doctors to convince them that they 'should' do whatever can be done - except give in gracefully to the inevitable. Of course the docs will try to convince people: it's what they trained for, it's what all that state of the art equipment exists for, it's what they get paid for, - what else would they say?
I also haven't seen "millions of people, without money or insurance, flooding into hospitals, demanding state of the art care". Those who have neither money nor insurance find out pretty fast that the hospital is obliged only to care for an imminent threat to their life, or a serious injury, before sending them on their way. And the only thing that unemployed drug addict can be assured of is a referral to whatever social services are available in the area, from detox to mental health.
Why do you suppose the first information the hospital gathers [except in life or death emergencies] is regarding who will be responsible for payment?
If you doubt it, try presenting yourself at any emergency room as an unemployed person [bonus points for pretending to be a drug addict!] with a non lifethreatening complaint, and let us know what kind of 'state of the art' treatment you get.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Tis - and I'd make the same end of life decision: palliative care only, no chemo/radiation or surgery to add a few months [of discomfort!] at a very great cost. [I've already told my family that if I get 'that' diagnosis, I'm heading for Oregon, lol.]
But I don't see a lot of people making that choice. Between the guilt imposed by religion, and that imposed by loved ones, and a culture that applauds only those who "fight", most people will allow doctors to convince them that they 'should' do whatever can be done - except give in gracefully to the inevitable. Of course the docs will try to convince people: it's what they trained for, it's what all that state of the art equipment exists for, it's what they get paid for, - what else would they say?
I also haven't seen "millions of people, without money or insurance, flooding into hospitals, demanding state of the art care". Those who have neither money nor insurance find out pretty fast that the hospital is obliged only to care for an imminent threat to their life, or a serious injury, before sending them on their way. And the only thing that unemployed drug addict can be assured of is a referral to whatever social services are available in the area, from detox to mental health.
Why do you suppose the first information the hospital gathers [except in life or death emergencies] is regarding who will be responsible for payment?
If you doubt it, try presenting yourself at any emergency room as an unemployed person [bonus points for pretending to be a drug addict!] with a non lifethreatening complaint, and let us know what kind of 'state of the art' treatment you get.

Cheri, you and I are in basic agreement on EOL decisions.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Nothing good will come out of Obamacare or any other government run system. Only fools will believe otherwise.
 
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