Gay discrimination

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Heterosexual couples want it, and can get it. Homosexual couples want it, too.
Homosexual couples invented it, for a specific purpose, with a specific meaning. It was about securing an environment to raise children, about getting in laws, making alliances and expanding the family labor force to ensure the viability and survivability of your little clan of the species. Homosexual couples want it, too, but for a very different reason and a very different meaning.

You get what you really want after working very hard. Marriage equality supporters have been working very, very hard, and we're at the horizon of seeing them get the fruit of their labors.
"Equal marriage" is in invented term invented for a political purpose. It used to be same "sex marriage" or "gay marriage" or "homosexual marriage," but neither of those terms fit the homosexual agenda of being able to beat religion and the religious dogma that goes against homosexuality.

After a lot of hard work, that's about to change.
In this case, "hard work" is a synonym for "whining long and loud."

Civil unions do not always afford the same rights and privileges as marriage.
Keeping the discussion within the borders of the United States, yes they do. In the 70s and 80s civil unions, with the exact same benefits and rights as marriage was refused as an option. It was refused for two reasons, one, they want the "M" word so they can win against religion, and two, they felt (and still do feel) that civil union is inadequate, despite having equal rights, because the term creates a separate status, and they want to be accepted and treated by society as perfectly normal. That's why the invented the term "homophobic," to apply it as a pejorative not against people who fear homosexuals, but against those who don't accept and embrace homosexuals as being perfectly normal, even glorious.

Why not? It's just a word. Language is always in flux. The word marriage had no special fan club until very recently.
But it's not just a word. All words have meaning so that we can communicate, and define ourselves as a society. As for marriage having no special fan club until recently, you'll have to define "recently," since pair bonding first began in the Stone Age as a way of organizing sexual conduct and providing a stable structure for child-rearing and the tasks of daily life, and the first written record of marriage was 4000 years ago in Mesopotamia.

Are you taking it personally?
No, I'm not. Not on a personal level. On a species level I am.

Then treat them like equals.
I do treat them like equals. What I won't do is treat them special, which is what they want. Same-sex marriage isn't equal rights, it's special rights. We have people right here on EO who are gay and have been married to people of the opposite sex. That's equal. Gays have had that same, exact right all along. They want to change the rule, the definitions, so they can have special rights.

It really seems like you're taking it personally.
I notice that instead of answering the question, to left that aside and now you want to direct your comments at me. Do you want to make this about me, and then you, and then me, and then you, and so on? Or would you rather stick to the issues?
 

greasytshirt

Moderator
Staff member
Mechanic
"WE" have trampled it? There is NO such thing as "group guilt". All transgressions are individual. I answer only for my actions, not the actions of others. I have have been married to the same woman for heading on 41 years. I trampled on nothing.

You're trampling on the rights of homosexuals.

Ok, that was harsh. I apologize. But marriage has not been treated with respect in this country for a long time.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
That depends entirely on the wording of that particular civil union, and the area it came from. If a couple with a civil union moved to VA, would it get recognized legally? Doubt it. If they moved overseas, would it be recognized? That's a crapshoot. That's why I answered the way I did, because nothing in a civil union is guaranteed everywhere, like in a marriage.

A civil union is a cheap facsimile of marriage, and there's nothing equal about them whatsoever. That's why it's important that when gay people get hitched, it gets called a marriage.

If the wording is done right, what is the difference? Why is it important? IF it was about "Love" it matters not. There is just about nothing that cannot be done with a legal, binding, contract. It is only about money.

I am not even sure that our "marriages" in THIS country are recognized in all other countries, never looked into it. Never really needed to.
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You're trampling on the rights of homosexuals.

Ok, that was harsh. I apologize. But marriage has not been treated with respect in this country for a long time.

I am not trampling on anyone's rights. Marriage is not treated with respect by those who disrespect it, including those who want to redefine the word. I have NO problem with a legal, civil union, that affords the same "rights and privileges" as marriage, what ever those are. No one has defined what those are.
 

greasytshirt

Moderator
Staff member
Mechanic
I notice that instead of answering the question, to left that aside and now you want to direct your comments at me. Do you want to make this about me, and then you, and then me, and then you, and so on? Or would you rather stick to the issues?


I meant to put that in italics, which is what i do when I reveal my internal monologue.
 

greasytshirt

Moderator
Staff member
Mechanic
I have NO problem with a legal, civil union, that affords the same "rights and privileges" as marriage, what ever those are. No one has defined what those are.


You're correct, no one has pounded out the details yet.

Seems a whole lot easier to me to just call it 'marriage' and save a whole lot of time, money, and paperwork, and expand the definition of one word just slightly. That's an extremely pragmatic view, and I'm an extreme pragmatist.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Your definition of marriage then automatically excludes heterosexual couples that don't want children, or that can't have children. Like my wife and I. We can't have kids. Since children aren't a possibility, do we have a marriage or simply a civil union?
Well, first of all, it's not "my" definition. Second, it's not a definition. I stated the reason for it being invented, not the definition of it. I'll definite it for you, and the definition won't exclude heterosexuals at all.

Marriage is the legal or religious union between a man and a woman. That's been the definition since the concept was first invented.

The ability to have to have children is not now nor has it ever been a general requirement for being able to get married.

The fact that you can't have children is unfortunate, from a species survival perspective, but it doesn't preclude you from being able to have a marriage. The fact that marriage was invented to facilitate propagation, and the growing and strengthening of families both immediate and extended, doesn't mean that marriage is predicated on any of it.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
They are not forcing..why should they settle for anything less than marriage...they pay taxes ..there american citizens ...it is about being equal...Dont blame them a bit for standing up...why do you care if 2 women are legally married??? How does that affect you???
Its crazy to think in 2014 we are still denying people the right...yes the right to get MARRIED

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You seemed to miss the important point that they already had that in NC but the gays decided that they wanted to bully people rather than have "equality".

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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
You're correct, no one has pounded out the details yet.

Seems a whole lot easier to me to just call it 'marriage' and save a whole lot of time, money, and paperwork, and expand the definition of one word just slightly. That's an extremely pragmatic view, and I'm an extreme pragmatist.


Why is it important to call it marriage, other than to tick off people for the sake of doing it? IF it was about "equality" then writing a proper civil union law would suffice. Just as a well written contract would do. It does not change the term "slightly" it alters it completely, for no real purpose.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
So gay people have not been murdered ..beaten..disowned..shunned...really??

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It's not really happening anymore. Are there exceptions to the rule? Of course but it has been very rare and would be no cause for reasonable fear.

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asjssl

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
Why is it important to call it marriage, other than to tick off people for the sake of doing it? IF it was about "equality" then writing a proper civil union law would suffice. Just as a well written contract would do. It does not change the term "slightly" it alters it completely, for no real purpose.

Too bad if it ticks people off...gay people have been laughed @ ...pointed @...had to hide who they were because religions made them out to be bad bad people...so if them getting what's due...well tick tick away....good for them!!

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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Too bad if it ticks people off...gay people have been laughed @ ...pointed @...had to hide who they were because religions made them out to be bad bad people...so if them getting what's due...well tick tick away....good for them!!

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Sorry, I don't agree. They are due nothing. Ticking off people for the sake of doing so furthers no cause and does more harm than good. It will not solve anything, other than to further divide the nation, which is one of their primary goals.

It's now bedtime. I have a early pickup and because I am a VERY responsible person I am going to be rested so I can be safe.

With any luck I will be busy all week again.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
That depends entirely on the wording of that particular civil union, and the area it came from. If a couple with a civil union moved to VA, would it get recognized legally? Doubt it. If they moved overseas, would it be recognized? That's a crapshoot. That's why I answered the way I did, because nothing in a civil union is guaranteed everywhere, like in a marriage.

A civil union is a cheap facsimile of marriage, and there's nothing equal about them whatsoever. That's why it's important that when gay people get hitched, it gets called a marriage.

You are missing the big picture and trying to focus on one state that said that they don't recognize same sex relationships. Guess what, even if a same sex couple got married in NY then moved to a state that said we refuse to recognize same sex marriages it wouldn't matter if it was called a marriage or civil union. There were many attempts to have same sex couples given the same benefits as married couples through civil unions but the gay bullies refused because marriage is not their goal.

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Well, let's look at my State, Virginia.

"Same-sex couples and families headed by same-sex couples are not eligible for all the protections available to opposite-sex married couples."
Virginia is a good example. If gays had accepted Civil Unions back in the 70s an 80s, with all of the rights and privileges of marriage, instead of refusing it and wanting the "M" word, they would have gotten Civil Unions and all of the same rights as married people, and at this point it would be referred to as a marriage. But instead, they wanted to redefine marriage and co-opt it specifically in order to beat religion. The blowback of that effort resulted in states like Virginia going, "Alright then, if Civil Union aint' good enough for ya, and you want to tear down religion, then you ain't gonna equal rights with Civil Unions, either!"

"Virginia voters ratified a constitutional amendment defining marriage as the union of a man and a woman in November 2006. The state recognizes no other same-sex relationship."
Exactly. Prior to the gays attempting to redefine marriage, there was no need for such an amendment. The amendment was in response to the actions of gays. Prior to that, they had civil unions at their disposal, and even in Virginia it would have meant full equal rights as married people, because of the Civil Rights Act.

In Virginia, there's no such thing as a Civil union for a same-sex couple.
There certainly could have been, if it were not for the blowback. Several states were prepared to go with civil unions, because of the Civil Rights Act, and Virginia would have eventually gone along with it. There are several states where they already had civil union laws in place that were the legal equivalent of marriage, but have since changed even those laws as a response to the gay agenda on the issue. You say they've fought hard, but the thing is, they've brought most of this fight on themselves. If all they wanted was equal rights in domestic partnerships, rather than beating religion, the fight would long be over.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Too bad if it ticks people off...gay people have been laughed @ ...pointed @...had to hide who they were because religions made them out to be bad bad people...so if them getting what's due...well tick tick away....good for them!!

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So you believe that fighting for the sake of fighting is a great way to help the country? Instead of just looking at something and saying I get what I want and the other people get to protect what they want so we both win is a bad thing in your mind?

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greasytshirt

Moderator
Staff member
Mechanic
You are missing the big picture and trying to focus on one state that said that they don't recognize same sex relationships. Guess what, even if a same sex couple got married in NY then moved to a state that said we refuse to recognize same sex marriages it wouldn't matter if it was called a marriage or civil union. There were many attempts to have same sex couples given the same benefits as married couples through civil unions but the gay bullies refused because marriage is not their goal.

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Gay people will no longer be placated with a facsimile of equality. No should they, imo.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Seems a whole lot easier to me to just call it 'marriage' and save a whole lot of time, money, and paperwork, and expand the definition of one word just slightly. That's an extremely pragmatic view, and I'm an extreme pragmatist.
Sorry. Not believable. Pragmatic means being able to see both side of the issue, and an extreme pragmatic can actually understand both sides of the issue. You can't even understand why "marriage" isn't "just a word." You think redefining marriage to mean the complete opposite of what it was invented for, and of what it has been used for for nearly 4000 years, is "just slightly." Your entire argument in this thread has been one-sided with no acceptance of the other side of the issue. That's why you're not pragmatic at all. Not even close.

Your "a whole lot easier" above requires changing definitions, and changing the basic structures of generations of society, not to mention existing legal frameworks, all in one whack. It would be a lot easier, and would have immensely more time, money and paperwork, to go with full-rights civil unions, which would rather quickly become referred to as married, regardless, and let society evolve it the way society has evolved marriage in the first place. That's the irony of it all. If they had accepted civil unions when they were offered, everybody would be calling it a marriage, anyway. That's how people's minds work in society.
 
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