French plane opens fire in Libya

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
BBC News

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12795971

A French plane has fired the first shots in Libya as enforcement of the UN-mandated no-fly zone begins. The target was a military vehicle, the French defence ministry said.

It came hours after Western and Arab leaders met in Paris to agree a course of action to confront Col Gaddafi.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
A No Fly zone..and they shoot at a ground vehicle? Don't they know they can't fly? Darned stupid French...:rolleyes:
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
A No Fly zone..and they shoot at a ground vehicle? Don't they know they can't fly? Darned stupid French...:rolleyes:


I think you find that the UN resolution is being followed :rolleyes:


"The new UN resolution authorises "all necessary measures" to protect Libyan civilians"
 

moose

Veteran Expediter
french 4 Qaddafi 1
the French are reporting a 4 military tanks being destroyed.
and there's a video surfing the net of a plane being shot down.
pilots are reporting problems identifying military targets from rebels from the air. looks like lousy intelligent by Nato.
anyone remember the last time we tried to win a war from the air alone ? ...
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I think you find that the UN resolution is being followed :rolleyes:


"The new UN resolution authorises "all necessary measures" to protect Libyan civilians"

So now we are interfering in a civil war.:rolleyes:...it is just not a no fly zone to equal the odds...now..advantage rebels....

amazing...supporting rebels we know nothing about...
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
anyone remember the last time we tried to win a war from the air alone ? ...

Actually we were warned in the 50's not to get involved with land wars in Asia, this can include the Middle East too. Eisenhower ramped up Air Force weapons and aircraft development based on the doctrine that it is better to fight an air war than a ground war. His reasoning behind this was the near disaster we had in Korea.

BUT with that, how many have heard about the 54 mortars that landed in Israel and the revelation that Hamas has claimed them as their strike?
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
So now we are interfering in a civil war.:rolleyes:...it is just not a no fly zone to equal the odds...now..advantage rebels....

amazing...supporting rebels we know nothing about...


Do you not believe what Canada, France, UK (& now US) are doing is necessary to save the Lyban people?
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Nope, they need to stay out. The problem like OVM mentioned is who are the 'rebels' and how do we equate them to actually wanting to take control of the country in any other form than the present one they have.

The people are caught in the middle but if we continue to decide who is to win or lose in these types of issues being outside of the country, we are no better than those in 1919 divided up half the world by drawing lines on a map.
 
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EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
Nope, they need to stay out. The problem like OVM mentioned is who are the 'rebels' and how do we equate them to actually wanting to take control of the country in any other form than the present one they have.

The people are caught in the middle but if we continue to decide who is to win or lose in these types of issues being outside of the country, we are no better than those in 1919 divided up half the world by drawing lines on a map.


Another Bosnia then, where we all stood by and watched the extermination of its own people? :(
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Civil wars...people die.....it is a fact of life..say we have another civil war or rebellion...what do you think would be said if the outside world tried to stop us? We would not like it for 1 minute....leaves us to determine our own future....do not stack the deck and support one side or the other...
At least the Libyian people have more of a backbone then the Iraqis ever had....
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
Civil wars...people die.....it is a fact of life..say we have another civil war or rebellion...what do you think would be said if the outside world tried to stop us? We would not like it for 1 minute....leaves us to determine our own future....do not stack the deck and support one side or the other...
At least the Libyian people have more of a backbone then the Iraqis ever had....


I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on Libya :(
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Another Bosnia then, where we all stood by and watched the extermination of its own people? :(

Yep if you want to put it that way. Bosnia is part of a bigger problem of nation building by pen.

If you understand the history of the region, the animosity between the people involved and the fact that there is still an occupation to keep the peace, then yep it can be the same.

The problem is the same, we were allies with the Serbs, we crapped on them when they were killing Muslims and now a lot of them just don't like us. Did we, the US, have to get involved?

NOPE it was a European problem that needed a European solution and all of Europe should have been dealing with it, not selective countries who felt they had to be the police of the world. Many felt our presences let them get away from actually doing anything, escaping their responsibility of the people of that region. A lot of the killing was along religious lines, Orthodox killing Muslim, Catholic killing Orthodox, etc ...

If you want to watch a good movie about the mess in Bosnia and how the UN peace keeping attempts made it worse, watch No Mans Land.

Libya should have an Arab response, not one from anyone else but see Italy and France, Greece and Turkey are the ones who are suffering from the issues of Refugees - not the United States or Germany or even England. BUT it is France and England who see it as a humanity thing that covers up some of the underlying issues (their rather not so ethical involvement) why they need to keep a lid on things while a lot of people like me feel it is a strict civil war and one that some of the players are not really clear on where they stand so we should stay out of it.

When I was at lunch, I listened to a few Lebanese make an interesting comment; with England and France involved, it looks to many of the Arab world that they are trying to recolonize Libya.

The thing that we should worry about is the use of our troops to "keep the peace". We don't need to be there and there really may not be any way without physical presence on the ground to stop any civil unrest, be it caused by rebels or by government forces.
 
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hdxpedx

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
REBEL side needs to tract down the FLT. 103 bomber who was released by the BRITS and ship his terrorist spineless bombing as* back to prison. 103 VICTIMS NEED THE LAST LAUGH!
 

EnglishLady

Veteran Expediter
REBEL side needs to tract down the FLT. 103 bomber who was released by the BRITS and ship his terrorist spineless bombing as* back to prison. 103 VICTIMS NEED THE LAST LAUGH!

Because I know that some ppl think of "Brits" as only English, I want to clarify that it was the Scottish Courts that released him.
 

Jack_Berry

Moderator Emeritus
Yep if you want to put it that way. Bosnia is part of a bigger problem of nation building by pen.

If you understand the history of the region, the animosity between the people involved and the fact that there is still an occupation to keep the peace, then yep it can be the same.

The problem is the same, we were allies with the Serbs, we crapped on them when they were killing Muslims and now a lot of them just don't like us. Did we, the US, have to get involved?

NOPE it was a European problem that needed a European solution and all of Europe should have been dealing with it, not selective countries who felt they had to be the police of the world. Many felt our presences let them get away from actually doing anything, escaping their responsibility of the people of that region. A lot of the killing was along religious lines, Orthodox killing Muslim, Catholic killing Orthodox, etc ...

If you want to watch a good movie about the mess in Bosnia and how the UN peace keeping attempts made it worse, watch No Mans Land.

Libya should have an Arab response, not one from anyone else but see Italy and France, Greece and Turkey are the ones who are suffering from the issues of Refugees - not the United States or Germany or even England. BUT it is France and England who see it as a humanity thing that covers up some of the underlying issues (their rather not so ethical involvement) why they need to keep a lid on things while a lot of people like me feel it is a strict civil war and one that some of the players are not really clear on where they stand so we should stay out of it.

When I was at lunch, I listened to a few Lebanese make an interesting comment; with England and France involved, it looks to many of the Arab world that they are trying to recolonize Libya.

The thing that we should worry about is the use of our troops to "keep the peace". We don't need to be there and there really may not be any way without physical presence on the ground to stop any civil unrest, be it caused by rebels or by government forces.

gee greg something we agree on. arab response to libya should be the lead....but it won't. the koran forbids muslims from killing other muslims so no saudi arabi to lead the vanguard. throw in the trouble in bahrain, egypt, tunisia, yemen and elsewhere to keep the armies at home. who is left iran, iraq, oman sudan, ethiopia and somalia? nope once again the crusaders come to interfere with the muslims. just more propaganda for the terrorist pr machine.

also gotta agree with ovm that we have no idea who leads the libyian rebels and what they really want. is it just gov't or is it also jobs? not many factories over there. what are they set up for besides pumping oil? is there a western company who wants to invest in car part factories? really, besides oil, what does the middle east have to offer besides kabobs an falafil? many of the best doctors are already in the west.


here is what the cia world factbook says about libya. not very promising.....
The Libyan economy depends primarily upon revenues from the oil sector, which contribute about 95% of export earnings, 25% of GDP, and 80% of government revenue. The weakness in world hydrocarbon prices in 2009 reduced Libyan government tax income and constrained economic growth. Substantial revenues from the energy sector coupled with a small population give Libya one of the highest per capita GDPs in Africa, but little of this income flows down to the lower orders of society. Libyan officials in the past five years have made progress on economic reforms as part of a broader campaign to reintegrate the country into the international fold. This effort picked up steam after UN sanctions were lifted in September 2003 and as Libya announced in December 2003 that it would abandon programs to build weapons of mass destruction. The process of lifting US unilateral sanctions began in the spring of 2004; all sanctions were removed by June 2006, helping Libya attract greater foreign direct investment, especially in the energy sector. Libyan oil and gas licensing rounds continue to draw high international interest; the National Oil Corporation (NOC) set a goal of nearly doubling oil production to 3 million bbl/day by 2012. In November 2009, the NOC announced that that target may slip to as late as 2017. Libya faces a long road ahead in liberalizing the socialist-oriented economy, but initial steps - including applying for WTO membership, reducing some subsidies, and announcing plans for privatization - are laying the groundwork for a transition to a more market-based economy. The non-oil manufacturing and construction sectors, which account for more than 20% of GDP, have expanded from processing mostly agricultural products to include the production of petrochemicals, iron, steel, and aluminum. Climatic conditions and poor soils severely limit agricultural output, and Libya imports about 75% of its food. Libya's primary agricultural water source remains the Great Manmade River Project, but significant resources are being invested in desalinization research to meet growing water demands.

here is the rest of the link to the cia factbook on libya....https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ly.html
 
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