greg334
Veteran Expediter
Between the Haggis and the chicken soup story, I'm not eating for a week. 
That was the clincher.....
That was the clincher.....
Food For Thought Or How Do You Want Your Goat Grilled
- Thread starter dhalltoyo
- Start date
I used to deliver to the Olsen Fish Company on the edge of downtown Minneapolis. They make the best pickled herring! One day my delivery included a pallet of what I thought was bundles of rough cut wood slabs about 3' long. I asked one of the guys if it was some type of special wood for smoking fish. They all had a good laugh. Finally one of them explained that it was dried cod. After a good long soak in lye, the cod became reconstituted and sold as lutefisk. Ya, you betcha. Dats the truth.
I once tried to smoke a fish but I couldn't keep it lit. No matter how hard puffed and inhaled it wouldn't stay lit.
I once tried to smoke a fish but I couldn't keep it lit. No matter how hard puffed and inhaled it wouldn't stay lit.
dieseldiva
Veteran Expediter
Jack_Berry
Moderator Emeritus
not just harvard but also curves. yes the local curves was asked by muslim clientele to lower the blinds when they are there. i also do not wish to choose a language. if you live here learn the language. stop living in ethnic ghettos. there should not be ballots in multiple languages.(hey if you are voting didn't you have to learn the history and become a citizen? can someone tell me if we teach American history in foreign languages?) if you cannot read the language you are probably not part of the greater socity. my in laws had to learn english when they emmigrated from denmark in the 60's. thier attitude was, we came here to be Americans and not danes living in America. when my wife worked as a bookkeeper at a business that employed spanish speaking folks the foreman who was mexican said she did not understand that it was hard to learn english. she responded in danish for several minutes. somethimes loudly for those around to hear that you not only can learn the language but can speak it well enough to not have an accent. she never heard that argument again. ethics clashes led to her leaving.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
What a better way to be trapped for the day, reading about the two most vial food I ever had and remembering the time I had both at one sitting…….
We went to visit our grandparent’s friends while we were up in Hancock Michigan, where my mother is from. This was one of two winter trips we made up there to visit my grandparents.
Mr. and Mrs. Miller was our host and I remember them well. Mr. Miller had a problem showing his scars from his hospital stay to any and all visitors, and Mrs. Miller was just plain nice but didn’t say much. They were a little younger than my grandparents but not by much. They lived in a typical mining home, small kitchen with a wood stove, parlor two bedrooms and a cellar… oh and an outhouse.
Nothing fancy, just an old house.
At the time of our unexpected arrival (like they didn’t know we were coming, my grandmother called them two hours before), there was also Mr. MacColl who was planning to arrive for his annual visit for that day for a quick dinner and then off to the city to meet with his friends. He had to travel some 50 miles to get there and did so in a 1939 Chevrolet. Mr. MacColl was very proud that he was in the Scottish Regiment when he was a young man. He and Mr. Miller were sort of related, some distant relations who fought over here during the revolution or something like that. He also worked with my grandfather as a fireman in the mines and I learned a lot from him about the 1913 strike and the big fire in the mine up where my grandfather worked.
Seeing that this was burns supper day (which I learned what that was after we ate and everyone was drunk) and he was Scottish, so he brought along Haggis to go with the fine whiskey that Mr. Miller had stashed away to celebrate the day.
So Mrs. Miller started to cook up the stuff just before our arrival. Soon after we kids got settled into the corner and told to shut up, here comes Mr. Jacob Ole.
Now Mr. Ole was a Finlander who had been up in that part of the country since some time before the dawn of time. He was a time keeper at the Calumet and Hecla mining company and spoke with a really deep Finish accent. If you ever see the film I remember mama, Uncle Kris is the exact copy of Mr. Ole, down to the stash and the attitude. Very nice and funny guy, he introduced us kids to a lot of Finnish customs that we all forgot since. He was a boarder at a distant cousin’s home, he had the garage apartment and they built him a really nice sauna but the first night that he used the sauna and to everyone’s horror, something happened that is still talked about in the prudish side of my family. Sometime during supper in the dining room that had windows that were really large and faced the sauna, my distant cousins were entertaining all their family from my neck of Michigan, Mr. Ole was in his new sauna enjoying it as an old Finlander should. All of a sudden he comes running out of the sauna butt naked, flopping in the snow for about 30 seconds or so and then whipping himself with a branch and ran back into the sauna. Everyone saw this and could not believe it, my cousins were laughing but the older folk from down Detroit way were not amused.
Well Mr. Ole was proud to be Finnish, knew that Mr. MacColl was going to be at the Millers, so he trekked down to the Red Owl in town (3 mile hike) and bought 5 pounds of Lutefisk (or as he called it lipeäkala), as he put it they this was the “de last of de fisk at da red owl”. So here he is at the front door with his bundle of fisk, he hands it to Mrs. Miller and she goes off to the kitchen and calls me to bring in more fire wood for the stove.
Now after the adults are done with their adult beverages, which included šljivovica (slivovitz or plum wine with lots of alcohol) for my grandmother and mother and other things I can’t pronounce or remember, everyone is feeling pretty good. Mrs. Miller by the way does not drink and I found out latter that it was to keep Mr. Miller in control. Well she announces dinner was ready, which included things mentioned above. We as kids had no say in what we were going to eat, we either ate it or we got our a**es whipped for insulting our host by my grandmother.
So we were all handed a plate, a little of haggis on it and a bunch of fish and something else that was neither Scottish or Finnish but what Mrs. Miller said was good for us and if we looked at it long enough we could see it was still alive. Well my sisters didn’t even get to the fish, they had the Haggis and both fought their way out of the house and fought getting into the outhouse, one yanked on the other’s hair so hard she pull a huge piece of it out. I couldn’t move the fear of what was in the stuff; I was just frozen to the chair, scared to move. I had some awful bad stuff from the farm my grandparents had but nothing was as revolting as what was placed on my plate that day at that house. In the end, we didn’t have a choice; my parents made us eat this awful combination of food, cleaning the plate. Everyone got a good laugh off of our indigent attitude, Mr. MacColl left for his engagement to celebrate burns supper in town, barely making it to the car and I think he ended up going the wrong way because I heard before we left [FONT="]for home down in Detroit [/FONT]he ended up at the coast to coast store in the basement trying to find the hall where the celebrations were to take place and got locked in the store.
At the end of the evening, we waited until my grandmother was ready to go back home and we took Mr. Ole back home - never to go up there during that time of year ever again.
To this day when I hear either of the names mentioned, I cringe and my stomach get all upset and in knots.
We went to visit our grandparent’s friends while we were up in Hancock Michigan, where my mother is from. This was one of two winter trips we made up there to visit my grandparents.
Mr. and Mrs. Miller was our host and I remember them well. Mr. Miller had a problem showing his scars from his hospital stay to any and all visitors, and Mrs. Miller was just plain nice but didn’t say much. They were a little younger than my grandparents but not by much. They lived in a typical mining home, small kitchen with a wood stove, parlor two bedrooms and a cellar… oh and an outhouse.
Nothing fancy, just an old house.
At the time of our unexpected arrival (like they didn’t know we were coming, my grandmother called them two hours before), there was also Mr. MacColl who was planning to arrive for his annual visit for that day for a quick dinner and then off to the city to meet with his friends. He had to travel some 50 miles to get there and did so in a 1939 Chevrolet. Mr. MacColl was very proud that he was in the Scottish Regiment when he was a young man. He and Mr. Miller were sort of related, some distant relations who fought over here during the revolution or something like that. He also worked with my grandfather as a fireman in the mines and I learned a lot from him about the 1913 strike and the big fire in the mine up where my grandfather worked.
Seeing that this was burns supper day (which I learned what that was after we ate and everyone was drunk) and he was Scottish, so he brought along Haggis to go with the fine whiskey that Mr. Miller had stashed away to celebrate the day.
So Mrs. Miller started to cook up the stuff just before our arrival. Soon after we kids got settled into the corner and told to shut up, here comes Mr. Jacob Ole.
Now Mr. Ole was a Finlander who had been up in that part of the country since some time before the dawn of time. He was a time keeper at the Calumet and Hecla mining company and spoke with a really deep Finish accent. If you ever see the film I remember mama, Uncle Kris is the exact copy of Mr. Ole, down to the stash and the attitude. Very nice and funny guy, he introduced us kids to a lot of Finnish customs that we all forgot since. He was a boarder at a distant cousin’s home, he had the garage apartment and they built him a really nice sauna but the first night that he used the sauna and to everyone’s horror, something happened that is still talked about in the prudish side of my family. Sometime during supper in the dining room that had windows that were really large and faced the sauna, my distant cousins were entertaining all their family from my neck of Michigan, Mr. Ole was in his new sauna enjoying it as an old Finlander should. All of a sudden he comes running out of the sauna butt naked, flopping in the snow for about 30 seconds or so and then whipping himself with a branch and ran back into the sauna. Everyone saw this and could not believe it, my cousins were laughing but the older folk from down Detroit way were not amused.
Well Mr. Ole was proud to be Finnish, knew that Mr. MacColl was going to be at the Millers, so he trekked down to the Red Owl in town (3 mile hike) and bought 5 pounds of Lutefisk (or as he called it lipeäkala), as he put it they this was the “de last of de fisk at da red owl”. So here he is at the front door with his bundle of fisk, he hands it to Mrs. Miller and she goes off to the kitchen and calls me to bring in more fire wood for the stove.
Now after the adults are done with their adult beverages, which included šljivovica (slivovitz or plum wine with lots of alcohol) for my grandmother and mother and other things I can’t pronounce or remember, everyone is feeling pretty good. Mrs. Miller by the way does not drink and I found out latter that it was to keep Mr. Miller in control. Well she announces dinner was ready, which included things mentioned above. We as kids had no say in what we were going to eat, we either ate it or we got our a**es whipped for insulting our host by my grandmother.
So we were all handed a plate, a little of haggis on it and a bunch of fish and something else that was neither Scottish or Finnish but what Mrs. Miller said was good for us and if we looked at it long enough we could see it was still alive. Well my sisters didn’t even get to the fish, they had the Haggis and both fought their way out of the house and fought getting into the outhouse, one yanked on the other’s hair so hard she pull a huge piece of it out. I couldn’t move the fear of what was in the stuff; I was just frozen to the chair, scared to move. I had some awful bad stuff from the farm my grandparents had but nothing was as revolting as what was placed on my plate that day at that house. In the end, we didn’t have a choice; my parents made us eat this awful combination of food, cleaning the plate. Everyone got a good laugh off of our indigent attitude, Mr. MacColl left for his engagement to celebrate burns supper in town, barely making it to the car and I think he ended up going the wrong way because I heard before we left [FONT="]for home down in Detroit [/FONT]he ended up at the coast to coast store in the basement trying to find the hall where the celebrations were to take place and got locked in the store.
At the end of the evening, we waited until my grandmother was ready to go back home and we took Mr. Ole back home - never to go up there during that time of year ever again.
To this day when I hear either of the names mentioned, I cringe and my stomach get all upset and in knots.
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Terryanrene I never thought ID see the day for shame lol
arabs and pork I give ya both a 10.
good job ROFLMAO
[FONT=Courier
New]http://glumbert.com/wii/view.php?name=baddayoffice[/FONT]
arabs and pork I give ya both a 10.
good job ROFLMAO
[FONT=Courier
New]http://glumbert.com/wii/view.php?name=baddayoffice[/FONT]
RLENT
Veteran Expediter
Just to clean up one of a few posts I failed to respond to ..... hopefully not beating the dead horse too much.
From the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom report:
"Indonesia’s transition to democracy since the end of military rule in 1998 is a notable achievement. The majority of Indonesians have embraced democracy, religious tolerance, and religious pluralism. In addition, a vibrant civil society has initiated public discussions on the nature of democracy, the separation of religion and state, women’s rights, and human rights more generally. These developments have contributed to a gradual improvement in conditions for human rights, including religious freedom, over the past few years."
This does not mean that the country is totally free from violence from religious extremists (afterall, there are insane people throughout the world) - it isn't. It is merely a reflection of what happening in the society as a whole.
Contrast that with Saudia Arabia, where religious freedom is totally non-existent, if you steal something you might lose your hand, and if you traffic in drugs you be executed.
Naturally, the individuals coming from two such disparate places would likely be very different. Just to play the devil's advocate (probably a poor choice of words .... as some might take that literally ....), which do think would be more likely to appreciate what we have here - one who has lived where they have enjoyed similar freedoms - or one who hasn't ? One who has been beaten or flogged by the religious police - or one who hasn't ?
You know it could just be that some of these folks are here in the US because they believe as we do ... live and let live ..... as opposed to the "grand conspiracy" of infiltrating the US in order to remake it into a Muslim nation that some folks seem to think exists. While I'm sure that there are such folks that see such a thing as their "mission" it is my guess that they are but a small minority.
And consider this: what are the chances of changing the hearts and minds of an Arab living in Saudi Arabia - as compared to one living here in the US ? Virtually nil, I'd guess.
Sun-Tzu, the Chinese general and military strategist said: "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."
I'm kinda funny I guess .... I'd prefer to judge individuals individually, based on who they are and how they conduct themselves - rather than painting them with a broad brush, based on some opinion or (pre- or mis-) conception I might hold about who they might be simply because of their religion, their country of origin, or where their forefathers hailed from.
I doubt that you would want to be painted with same brush as Lt. William Calley would you ?
Hopefully you would find such a perceived association on my part utterly abhorent and entirely unfair ...... because it is.
Indeed there are - as an example, Indonesia is the largest Muslim nation that there is, with about 88% of the population (over 200 million) identifying themselves as Muslims. Despite that, the country is, generally speaking, highly tolerant of others of a different faith.
From the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom report:
"Indonesia’s transition to democracy since the end of military rule in 1998 is a notable achievement. The majority of Indonesians have embraced democracy, religious tolerance, and religious pluralism. In addition, a vibrant civil society has initiated public discussions on the nature of democracy, the separation of religion and state, women’s rights, and human rights more generally. These developments have contributed to a gradual improvement in conditions for human rights, including religious freedom, over the past few years."
This does not mean that the country is totally free from violence from religious extremists (afterall, there are insane people throughout the world) - it isn't. It is merely a reflection of what happening in the society as a whole.
Contrast that with Saudia Arabia, where religious freedom is totally non-existent, if you steal something you might lose your hand, and if you traffic in drugs you be executed.
Naturally, the individuals coming from two such disparate places would likely be very different. Just to play the devil's advocate (probably a poor choice of words .... as some might take that literally ....
), which do think would be more likely to appreciate what we have here - one who has lived where they have enjoyed similar freedoms - or one who hasn't ? One who has been beaten or flogged by the religious police - or one who hasn't ?You know it could just be that some of these folks are here in the US because they believe as we do ... live and let live ..... as opposed to the "grand conspiracy" of infiltrating the US in order to remake it into a Muslim nation that some folks seem to think exists. While I'm sure that there are such folks that see such a thing as their "mission" it is my guess that they are but a small minority.
And consider this: what are the chances of changing the hearts and minds of an Arab living in Saudi Arabia - as compared to one living here in the US ? Virtually nil, I'd guess.
Sun-Tzu, the Chinese general and military strategist said: "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."
I'm kinda funny I guess .... I'd prefer to judge individuals individually, based on who they are and how they conduct themselves - rather than painting them with a broad brush, based on some opinion or (pre- or mis-) conception I might hold about who they might be simply because of their religion, their country of origin, or where their forefathers hailed from.
I doubt that you would want to be painted with same brush as Lt. William Calley would you ?
Hopefully you would find such a perceived association on my part utterly abhorent and entirely unfair ...... because it is.
Tennesseahawk
Veteran Expediter
Rlent... let me clarify some things for you, since what I've said appeared in your post.
First, I agree that MOST Muslims are here for purely legitamate reasons. Ok... it's not the most we're talking about. Would you be surprised that 85% of Arabs in the US think suicide bombing should never be used? What a friendly lot! What of that 15%??? Would you be surprised that Arabs make up 3% of the population in Sweden, yet account for 40% of rapes there?
You say you'd rather know an individual individually. How much time do you have to go out and personally greet each individual to base your opinions on? We speak in generalities based on what has happened. You can call it steriotyping, or whatever you want. But it's a nature of the times we live in. But you have to realize there are still Arabs in OUR country who have portraits of Khomeni in their house. And that, to me, is a concern. 15%, my man.
First, I agree that MOST Muslims are here for purely legitamate reasons. Ok... it's not the most we're talking about. Would you be surprised that 85% of Arabs in the US think suicide bombing should never be used? What a friendly lot! What of that 15%??? Would you be surprised that Arabs make up 3% of the population in Sweden, yet account for 40% of rapes there?
You say you'd rather know an individual individually. How much time do you have to go out and personally greet each individual to base your opinions on? We speak in generalities based on what has happened. You can call it steriotyping, or whatever you want. But it's a nature of the times we live in. But you have to realize there are still Arabs in OUR country who have portraits of Khomeni in their house. And that, to me, is a concern. 15%, my man.
And it's a dangerous 15%, too, I'd say. On the other hand, it's also a little dangerous to base your opinion of an entire people based upon 15% of them. I'd much rather know the individual individually than sweep them up with pre-judged notions (a.k.a. prejudice). That is not to say I view Islamic fundamentalist terrorism as a police matter, to have terrorists prosecuted after the fact of the act, I'm all for preemptively stopping it before it happens. But do keep in mind that Timothy McVay was an Arab terrorist until someone found out who he was.
But the Muslim rape thing is something to not be taken lightly or just as some wild statistic that Muslim-haters like to toss out there. It's not just a Sweden thing, either, it's all over the west. By and large, Arab teenage girls are not allowed after dark, to they are pretty much removed from being targets in the first place. But it doesn't matter, as the attitudes of Arab boys is astounding about it all.
"It is not as wrong raping a Swedish girl as [it is] raping an Arab girl," says Hamid (one of many Arab immigrants who've been caught, and one of four who were interviewed for the article). "The Swedish girl gets a lot of help afterwards, and she had probably f***cked before, anyway. But the Arab girl will get problems with her family. For her, being raped is a source of shame. It is important that she retains her virginity until she marries."
All four have disparaging views on Swedish girls, and think this attitude is common among young men with immigrant background. "It is far too easy to get a Swedish
?? girl, I mean;" says Hamid, and laughs over his own choice of words. "Many immigrant boys have Swedish girlfriends when they are teenagers. But when they get married, they get a proper woman from their own culture who has never been with a boy. That's what I am going to do. I don't have too much respect for Swedish girls. I guess you can say they get [f***ked] to pieces."
Again, this is not just a Sweden thing, it's happening in all western countries. True enough, the Arab teens that run around gang raping western teenagers are a small minority of the Arab populations, but even the majority feel this way to one degree or another, and it's something to take a close look at. The Arab culture blames the rape victim rather than the rapist. They feel the victim had it coming to them. In Sweden an Islamic Mufti (an interpreter and expounder of Islamic Law) proclaimed that women who do not wear headscarves are "asking for rape."
It was found that 85% of convicted rapists in Sweden and Denmark were by people born or foreign soil, or by foreign parents. Other western countries have similar numbers. One could certainly argue that, at least with regards to rape, the 85/15 percentages have swapped.
But the Muslim rape thing is something to not be taken lightly or just as some wild statistic that Muslim-haters like to toss out there. It's not just a Sweden thing, either, it's all over the west. By and large, Arab teenage girls are not allowed after dark, to they are pretty much removed from being targets in the first place. But it doesn't matter, as the attitudes of Arab boys is astounding about it all.
"It is not as wrong raping a Swedish girl as [it is] raping an Arab girl," says Hamid (one of many Arab immigrants who've been caught, and one of four who were interviewed for the article). "The Swedish girl gets a lot of help afterwards, and she had probably f***cked before, anyway. But the Arab girl will get problems with her family. For her, being raped is a source of shame. It is important that she retains her virginity until she marries."
All four have disparaging views on Swedish girls, and think this attitude is common among young men with immigrant background. "It is far too easy to get a Swedish
?? girl, I mean;" says Hamid, and laughs over his own choice of words. "Many immigrant boys have Swedish girlfriends when they are teenagers. But when they get married, they get a proper woman from their own culture who has never been with a boy. That's what I am going to do. I don't have too much respect for Swedish girls. I guess you can say they get [f***ked] to pieces."Again, this is not just a Sweden thing, it's happening in all western countries. True enough, the Arab teens that run around gang raping western teenagers are a small minority of the Arab populations, but even the majority feel this way to one degree or another, and it's something to take a close look at. The Arab culture blames the rape victim rather than the rapist. They feel the victim had it coming to them. In Sweden an Islamic Mufti (an interpreter and expounder of Islamic Law) proclaimed that women who do not wear headscarves are "asking for rape."
It was found that 85% of convicted rapists in Sweden and Denmark were by people born or foreign soil, or by foreign parents. Other western countries have similar numbers. One could certainly argue that, at least with regards to rape, the 85/15 percentages have swapped.
dhalltoyo
Veteran Expediter
A few years back I was employed by a gentleman who is a Muslim. He was born in Morocco and reared in the Muslim faith. Our business relationship was pleasant and non-confrontational. He often would ask me questions regarding particular texts from the scriptures and we would discuss them openly.
His wife was an American and she was not a convert to the Muslim religious beliefs. One afternoon she enlightened me as to the deep-rooted convictions held by her husband and his community. She said, "Although you have a friendly relationship with my husband and his friends, if push came to shove, your existence, and mine, would be short lived, because the Koran clearly teaches that all non-believers should be wiped off the face of the earth."
I found that statement to be most perplexing so I dug a little deeper into Bible for an answer as to why my life would be held in such disregard. The Bible clearly shows the answer:
Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Note: Ishmael is the beginning of the Arabic nations.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
Note: "He will be a wild man." "His hand will be against every man." Therefore, "Every man's hand against him."
As I said before, I don't hate anyone, and I do not think that Muslims are on a mission to overthrow the government. My concern is that America will continue to dilute its foundational beliefs by trying to be "All-Inclusive" so as not to offend anyone.
After living in England for a few years I could easily detect a lessening of their core beliefs due to the influx of non-Christian immigrants. I watched as folks seemed to be walking on eggshells as they tip-toed through the minefields of cultural differences. I see the same thing happening here at home. We seem so bent on making sure that we don’t offend anyone, that folks avoid even asking a simple question regarding their concerns. For example, we allow Mosques to be built here in this country, but if I were to even hand out Christian literature in a Moslem nation, I could face death by beheading. Well, that concerns me! Why? We are known by the company we keep.
I am simply concerned and cautious. Why? Since the post Vietnam Era, those who have attacked America, both at home and abroad, did not come from countries where Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists and other non-Muslims make up the predominate religious foundation.
How quickly we forget. Have you forgotten?
His wife was an American and she was not a convert to the Muslim religious beliefs. One afternoon she enlightened me as to the deep-rooted convictions held by her husband and his community. She said, "Although you have a friendly relationship with my husband and his friends, if push came to shove, your existence, and mine, would be short lived, because the Koran clearly teaches that all non-believers should be wiped off the face of the earth."
I found that statement to be most perplexing so I dug a little deeper into Bible for an answer as to why my life would be held in such disregard. The Bible clearly shows the answer:
Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Note: Ishmael is the beginning of the Arabic nations.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
Note: "He will be a wild man." "His hand will be against every man." Therefore, "Every man's hand against him."
As I said before, I don't hate anyone, and I do not think that Muslims are on a mission to overthrow the government. My concern is that America will continue to dilute its foundational beliefs by trying to be "All-Inclusive" so as not to offend anyone.
After living in England for a few years I could easily detect a lessening of their core beliefs due to the influx of non-Christian immigrants. I watched as folks seemed to be walking on eggshells as they tip-toed through the minefields of cultural differences. I see the same thing happening here at home. We seem so bent on making sure that we don’t offend anyone, that folks avoid even asking a simple question regarding their concerns. For example, we allow Mosques to be built here in this country, but if I were to even hand out Christian literature in a Moslem nation, I could face death by beheading. Well, that concerns me! Why? We are known by the company we keep.
I am simply concerned and cautious. Why? Since the post Vietnam Era, those who have attacked America, both at home and abroad, did not come from countries where Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists and other non-Muslims make up the predominate religious foundation.
How quickly we forget. Have you forgotten?
I have to question that one. It doesn't make sense. First, the Koran (Qur’an) doesn't state, clearly or otherwise, that all non-believers should be wiped off the face of the Earth. It says that only if it is interpreted to mean that, and by and large most of the people who interpret those meanings are the radical Islamic fundamentalists. If, indeed, her husband believes in that interpretation and has deep-rooted convictions, then he is an Islamic fundamentalist, and there is no way that that an Islamic fundamentalist would marry a non-Muslim woman and be living outside of a Muslim nation. No way, no how. Not gonna happen.
The Qur'an defines as acceptable to marry someone who is "among the people of the book," meaning, Christian or Jewish, someone of faith, even though not of Islam. You can marry a non-Mulsim woman, but she'd better believe in God. But, a Muslim man may not marry a non-Muslim woman if there is no Islamic State or if he is not living in an existing Islamic state, since the non-Islamic states do not recognize his rights as head of the family to raise the children Islamically. On the contrary, the children will most likely be brought up in their mother's religion, since the Muslim husband does not have his Islamic rights as defined in the Qur'an in his non-Muslim wife's country.
A moderate Muslim man would marry a non-Muslim woman, and might do so in a non-Islamic state, but it would be unlikely that such a Mulsim man would interpret the Qur'an to mean the killing off of all non-Muslims, without getting a truly unambiguous definition of "when push comes to shove".
Ironically, Onward Christian Soldiers and Islamic Jihadists are not all that different, it's just a matter of degrees.
The Qur'an states in 2:191, "slay them wherever you catch them," refering to the infidels, or non-believers. If you look at that verse, in that context, yeah, it means to kill all non-believers. But just like people do with the Bible, where a verse is taken out of context and interpreted to mean whatever you like, it means something else entirely when taken in full context.
The preceding and following verses give the correct context:
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression" (2:190-193).
It is clear, even to the most devoutly radical, from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back, but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.
But that's where interpretation again lends itself to problems. To a reasonable person, the context is clear that Muslims are not instructed, by the word of God, to go around killing infidels wherever they find them. There are conditions and there are restraints. Fighting against oppression is a good thing. If that were all there were to it then why is there so much killing done in the name of Islam? It's a matter of interpreting what the limits and conditions are.
To an Islamic terrorist, the conditions have been met. It started, mainly, with bin Laden, who felt that foreign troops in Saudi Arabia is nothing more than an invasion against Islam and requires a defensive war, a Jihad in the name of Islam. Reasonable, more moderate Muslims would not look on this as reason enough to go to war. Obviously, others think is it enough, and once you go there, pretty much anything can be interpreted as an attack.
The conditions are ambiguous enough that there is a great deal of wiggle room for someone looking to rationalize whatever it is they want to do. Mob mentality sets in, a sense of purpose sets in, it gets ugly. The Qur’an isn’t unique in that, Christians and other faiths do it, too, but because Muslims believe that it contains the direct words of God, rather than simply words inspired by God, it becomes a tad more dangerous in this regard than most religious scriptures. It's one thing to believe something, it's another to be instructed by God to do something.
As I said before, I don't hate anyone, and I do not think that Muslims are on a mission to overthrow the government. My concern is that America will continue to dilute its foundational beliefs by trying to be "All-Inclusive" so as not to offend anyone.
America was founded by Puritans who were escaping religious persecution for religious freedom. They got here and promptly became a people who believed that everyone should believe the way they believed and were wholly intolerant of others. They immediately kicked Roger Williams and others who's beliefs differed from their own out. They became what they were running from. So, as it turns out, America was founded by hypocrites. And by and large, we still are.
After living in England for a few years I could easily detect a lessening of their core beliefs due to the influx of non-Christian immigrants. I watched as folks seemed to be walking on eggshells as they tip-toed through the minefields of cultural differences. I see the same thing happening here at home. We seem so bent on making sure that we don’t offend anyone, that folks avoid even asking a simple question regarding their concerns. For example, we allow Mosques to be built here in this country, but if I were to even hand out Christian literature in a Moslem nation, I could face death by beheading. Well, that concerns me! Why? We are known by the company we keep.
We have freedom of religion here. That's why you can build a mosque, or a synagogue here. If we had a state-mandated religion, like many countries around the world have had historically, many still do, you couldn't hand out literature of another faith without being burned at the stake. The Inquisition comes to mind. All of the Inquisitions, starting with the Medieval Inquisition in the 1100's, to the Spanish Inquisition from the 1400's to the mid 1800's, the Portuguese Inquisition which started in 1497 and didn't end until the early 1800's, to the Roman Inquisition which began in the mid 1500's and is still in place today under the banner of "The Congregation of Doctrine of Faith".
I am simply concerned and cautious. Why? Since the post Vietnam Era, those who have attacked America, both at home and abroad, did not come from countries where Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists and other non-Muslims make up the predominate religious foundation.
I would argue that Timothy McVay falls under the category of those who have attacked America. There are many others, like students who open fire in classrooms, or a milkman who opens fire at a Pennsylvania Amish schoolhouse. I would also argue that the most blatant attack is from those who come in an invasion that is not unlike any other attack in an attempt to take over another land, namely, illegal immigrants from Mexico.
How quickly we forget. Have you forgotten?
Tennesseahawk
Veteran Expediter
There are MANY instances throughout history that Muslims have shared land with, even ruled over, other religions, with no hostilities or oppression. In the case of Moor ruled Spain, there was even a flourishing of culture, architecture, art, etc. There, Christians, Jews, and Muslims lived in harmony. Recently, one could look at Lebannon as being an open society where little strife happened. Pre-Saddam Iraq was another. It wasn't until the Khomeni revolution that really started the attitude that prevails in extreme Muslims today.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
Actually T-Hawk, I would not say harmony but a co-existence was there. I think that the modern change goes back to the Turks and the Armenian mass killings and exacerbated by the British in post WW1 Arabia when the peninsula was divided up.
But Turtle, I think David is closer to the truth. I too have been told that same thing and even though you can claim all you want that it is not in the Koran, the fact it depending on the sect of Islam where to person who is saying it follows, there are various interpretations of the passages but sometimes what is missed is the Koran is part of the religion, it is not the only thing that they rely on to govern their religion. We as non-practitioners think that this is the only place we find things but in fact there are several texts and verbal records that they use.
In fact the one thing that is missed here is Wahhabism and how the follows treat issues. Many don’t understand the complexity of the general religion itself and can’t get into the more complexity of the sects that many follow. Just like the fundamentalism that is prevalent in Iran, there are just as many philosophies on how to live and treat non-believers.
But Turtle, I think David is closer to the truth. I too have been told that same thing and even though you can claim all you want that it is not in the Koran, the fact it depending on the sect of Islam where to person who is saying it follows, there are various interpretations of the passages but sometimes what is missed is the Koran is part of the religion, it is not the only thing that they rely on to govern their religion. We as non-practitioners think that this is the only place we find things but in fact there are several texts and verbal records that they use.
In fact the one thing that is missed here is Wahhabism and how the follows treat issues. Many don’t understand the complexity of the general religion itself and can’t get into the more complexity of the sects that many follow. Just like the fundamentalism that is prevalent in Iran, there are just as many philosophies on how to live and treat non-believers.
I made no claims, I quoted it, instead.
"...but sometimes what is missed is the Koran is part of the religion, it is not the only thing that they rely on to govern their religion. We as non-practitioners think that this is the only place we find things but in fact there are several texts and verbal records that they use."
Quite true. Most people (Muslims and otherwise) do not interpret the Qur'an directly themselves, but indeed, rely on the interpretations of others, of the Islamic clerics and scholars. (Hey, just like the Bible!) People desperately want to be led, and the more desperate they are, the easier they are led.
"In fact the one thing that is missed here is Wahhabism and how the follows treat issues."
Actually, I think Wahhbism is the central issue here. It's what we're all talking about, really. Wahhabism is the puritanical form of Islam that teaches intolerance of anyone who does not conform to its world view, Muslims and non-Muslims alike. More and more this is what is being taught in Saudi schools and preached in tens of thousands of mosques, all of them government supported in an Islamic state. That's what happens when the government and the religion is one.
Saudi Arabia was at one time dependent on the Wahhabi religion to protect them from foreign invaders and to keep other Muslim sects under control. Not only would they attack Jews and Christians but also fellow Muslims that they felt are not true believers. Wahhabis believe it is their duty to kill infidels and heretics, polytheists, and apostate rulers who defile the "land of the two holy cities". The "land of two holy cities" is what Al Qaeda calls Saudi Arabia because they are so angry at the Saudi royal family and the westernized Saudis they won't even use the name.
When Muslims kill infidels, and other infidels retaliate, Muslims don't see the retaliation as retaliation, they see it as a direct attack on Islam separate from any other purpose. And it starts all over again. I guess the only solution is to wipe Muslims off the face of the Earth, before they wipe us off.
greg334
Veteran Expediter
So.... I go to this new wal-mart after my funeral obligations and I got to tell you that the news article seems to be building it up to something it is not. I didn't bring the camera with me but lets start with a few issues....
First there is a quarter isle for of Middle Eastern stuff, there maybe 550 items but what is an item? I found Lebanese sardines that my father likes but the foot print that they take up is very small. I got lebanese olives for a lot less than I get from my supplier at the eastern market, I don't have to pay his 150% mark up. In this isle there is a small section for Asian food (mostly boxed junk food), some German and some Jewish food BUT the isle is remains dominantly Mexican. By the way the olive oil is cheaper than Sam's club AND a very small but good spice section.
Second I did not find any Halal meat counter I heard on the radio there was, so I didn't get my meat. Oh well....
Third, the article speaks of all this produce that implies there is a lot of Middle Eastern centric produce, not the case. I bought avacodos at $ .75 each and some Asian veggies but I only found three items that were Middle Eastern (actually I think one is Moroccan) in the entire place.
Fourth the people were very friendly, unlike the Livonia store. I didn't get the feeling we were imposing on the people to do their jobs or a pain to them for us buying stuff.
Fifth, here is the meat cooler order from left to right - poultry, pork, beef.. I was watching the Arab women who were picking out meat and they didn't seem to have a problem with moving the pork products out of the way to get to the Kosher franks.
Sixth, it was interesting to see the easter stuff going up and the amount of tortillas and other Mexican stuff on display. There is a little difference between a tortilla and a pita and we actually had a hard time finding pita bread.
First there is a quarter isle for of Middle Eastern stuff, there maybe 550 items but what is an item? I found Lebanese sardines that my father likes but the foot print that they take up is very small. I got lebanese olives for a lot less than I get from my supplier at the eastern market, I don't have to pay his 150% mark up. In this isle there is a small section for Asian food (mostly boxed junk food), some German and some Jewish food BUT the isle is remains dominantly Mexican. By the way the olive oil is cheaper than Sam's club AND a very small but good spice section.
Second I did not find any Halal meat counter I heard on the radio there was, so I didn't get my meat. Oh well....
Third, the article speaks of all this produce that implies there is a lot of Middle Eastern centric produce, not the case. I bought avacodos at $ .75 each and some Asian veggies but I only found three items that were Middle Eastern (actually I think one is Moroccan) in the entire place.
Fourth the people were very friendly, unlike the Livonia store. I didn't get the feeling we were imposing on the people to do their jobs or a pain to them for us buying stuff.
Fifth, here is the meat cooler order from left to right - poultry, pork, beef.. I was watching the Arab women who were picking out meat and they didn't seem to have a problem with moving the pork products out of the way to get to the Kosher franks.
Sixth, it was interesting to see the easter stuff going up and the amount of tortillas and other Mexican stuff on display. There is a little difference between a tortilla and a pita and we actually had a hard time finding pita bread.
For those of you still in la la land on this subject, the "push come to shove" statement is extremely valid. In fact, the situation does not have to get that dire, for the tru colors to fly. Granted, this is from someone that has worked and lived with em extensively (in) the mid east, but, ya gotta understand, crossing the pond, don't wash many of the spots off.