Flat Rate Pay Plan

[davekc]

I'll have to be naysayer in some of this. I think the bigger issue is actual control. I also think it depends on what compaies or pay plans you are trying to compare. I do think a percentage plan is better if compared to a flat rate company that utilizes a flat rate FSC policy. Were we are at using this week as a comparison, our lowest FSC was .51 per mile, and the highest was .85 per mile. And of course there is the usual DH pay and or EM pay that essentially covers fuel and not much else. And there are those occassional .20 cent FSC loads that may be unprofitable that we turn down. A Fedex rate may be higher, but the compensation at the end of the day is pretty much the same. Percentage runs will be higher on the shorter stuff, no doubt about it. Still see no difference in our case when a short run is ran and Panther throws on a bonus. Still at the same place. It is also illastrated looking through the EO team and driver ads. If one was signifactly better, you wouldn't see ads on existing trucks, looking for drivers.

For us, we currently have several former OO that were at Fedex. They make more money running our truck. What does that mean? Could mean a lot of things. One thing for sure, they aren't running loads in the dollar amounts Greg was talking about.

But that aside, if you are comparing a tractor rate of 1.45 on a tractor, I believe you have to compare the total rate with FSC included to get to those comparable numbers. Comparisons also should be relevant in that comparing a WG truck to a standard surface truck will wash those numbers. It would have to be compared to as far as Panther, an Elite truck. If a Panther truck does a A & E load, he isn't running that for just the base rate. With FSC etc, that truck is running well over a couple bucks a mile.

If I go farther, it comes back to that control issue where I think Panther or Landstar have the edge. Any carrier that gives you that flexibilty to obtain your own freight, has a huge advantage.
Another thread mention "Way too many FECC trucks" illastrates that point. We had a truck there and many of those drivers had already been there a week with no options to move. 10 trucks or whatever is a significant number. We got out in less than 24 hours. What does that mean? It isn't likely a possible higher rate offsets sitting there for a prolonged period of time.
As in Steves case, he will move quicker because he is in a TT. But that condition would apply to any carrier.

I am of the mindset that, the more control you have, the better off you will be.

 

[ratwell71]

The idea here is to be able to debate not argue. I don't deadhead for free ever. No free lunches.

 

[nightcreacher]

sometimes I thnik you guys purposly try to MISS the point.

FXGROUND is not a expedite company which is why I specified they are general frieght.

I was not comparing our rates to thiers because that is apples to
oranges. But I was seeking to compare company culture.

reguardless of the pay plan if the company culture is good OO do better.

I need a wall to bang my head against!!!

yes ground is a different culture,but can you really afford to replace your truck every two years,in their system,your not required to repace it,but if you want any money for it you better.if you trade evry3 years as you should,a truck with 600000 miles six years old is worth zilch,im haveing trouble try in to trade my truck,it has 600000 miles and is just 4 years old,most of those miles were from con-way,if they were all fom here, id have made almost a million dollars in less than 4 years,and id be retired,instead of trying to get out of the debt i aquired from con-way

 

[nightcreacher]

Dave, good point,but im not in w/g,and yes i may make more than most,but its my way of doing business.im not willing to layover in an ex center that isnt very busy and already has at least 1 truck in it.my over all pay loaded and empty is higher than panther will pay me,and even though i will never see a 85 cpm fsc,i get fsc on empty miles if they are dispatched miles,I dont believe panther pays fsc on empty miles.the biggest thing we are dealing with here is,im a tractor,im need much more than an overstaffed fleet of vans and straight trucks,and i have over 20 years of knowledge,in my fat head,its my football,i pay the game my way

 

[davekc]

I would have to agree with Greg on Landstar's system. My only issue would be on freight that we haul. Landstar would get 38 percent, and I give up 15 to Panther.
The other unknown is agents in certain markets that have their own fleet. May or may not be an issue.
Relationship with agents I believe would be the determining factor of success within their organization.
Running a fleet of trucks would be a different animal in that setting verses a single one truck operation.

With regards to the other parts of Greg's post, I believe this was the same issue that Talcal had which had a eroding effect on his fleet and forced him to dissolve it.

Steve,
You are correct in that there is a definite stronger demand for a TT. As far as Panther, they pay for DH, and authorized empty moves. The DH is fixed unless negotiated, and the EM is based on the current fuel price so it fluctuates.

 

[nightcreacher]

theres that word again,negotiate.when i started with roberts,the pay was 62% out,everyload after was 46%,but was told that you could negotiate.for 1o years i negotiated,very few 46% loads,in fact when they went 58% i lost money,and then lost my contract for what was called black mailng the company,getting those 62% loads.well i was gone for a year,came back at 58% which is now 60%,and the only negotiation i do is if THEY offer to sweetin the load,i dont ask for anything,except once in a blue moon a back up load.if the original pay isnt high enough,in most cases a back up offer isnt either,there is only so much that can be paid out.Way back when,ive hauled many loads that paid me more than paid them,but this isnt roberts,and we arent trying to establish a company in the expedite business,we are what expedite is all about

 

[davekc]

I think the idea as to whether someone negotiates is subjective depending on the circumstances, carrier, and what equipment size we are talking about. Sometimes we do "negotiate" a specific rate, but at the end of the day, it is the ending numbers that determine everything.

Phil wrote,
Sorry, Greg. I have about hit my limit with your ongoing mantra that your failures are FedEx's fault. Some people make it at FedEx and others do not. If it was FedEx's fault, everyone would fail. And before you go there, I reject your assertion that FedEx plays favorites. You have zero proof of that and I know of dispatchers that have been fired for playing favorites. FedEx policies prohibit the playing of favorites, and those policies are enforced.


I don't think a specific form of proof is warranted as I mentioned before. If a carrier has any type of acceptance ratings, that is a vehicle for determining load placement. If not, what would be the point in having it?

 

[x06col]

"We are what expedite is all about" Yak, cough, puke. Get real!

 

[greg334]

We have already seen a trickle in other posts. I am wondering how long it will be before Greg starts the flow about why he cannot make money at Landstar either, and how the reasons have to do with decisons the carrier makes, not with decisions he makes.

Sorry, Greg. I have about hit my limit with your ongoing mantra that your failures are FedEx's fault. Some people make it at FedEx and others do not. If it was FedEx's fault, everyone would fail. And before you go there, I reject your assertion that FedEx plays favorites. You have zero proof of that and I know of dispatchers that have been fired for playing favorites. FedEx policies prohibit the playing of favorites, and those policies are enforced.

I want people researching the industry to know that not everyone fails at FedEx Custom Critical, and not everyone fails for the reasons Greg gives. There are a bunch of us, both in WG and Surface Expedite trucks that are doing quite well, thank you. One person's failure, for whatever reason, does not mean all others are destined to follow suit.

You know Phil, go ahead, hit your limit, who cares.

I was not directing anything towards you and really got to think what is it that you are so d*mn worried about if I tell people what I feel happened to me and what I have been told.

For the record, I didn’t fail, I simply didn’t make the money I thought I would, and there is no failure there. For some reason I am not the only one out here that feels that way, a few others have been vocal in the past so it is not all me. I am not making any money with Landstar at this moment; it is the Landstar’s fault? H*ll no, it is mine. There are a lot of reasons for it but one thing I can say is that unlike FedEx, I am not helpless in what does happen to me from this point forward.

Because this is sort of a personal attack, I will have to tell you how I see the problem with your criticism. The problem is that you never ever had to deal with being at the bottom of anything at FedEx. You started at the top, you view things from the top and you don't see the problems that I and others have because you had help getting started, and because you are at the top you have different resources you can depend on. I congratulate you for your ability to do this but at the same time I can’t agree with it but alas I had no control over it. This is my one big complaint about FedEx, allowing people who didn’t prove themselves by starting in Surface to be in a group like WG, it really makes people think and everyone to know that there was some special favor done to get a complete newbie into something that is supposed to be an elite part of the company with a ‘strict’ path to proving their ability in order to give the client the utmost best service. But anyway, I found out early in life and it was reinforced in my IT career that people, who start at the top, don’t appreciate what happens to others at the bottom and assume that it is the same for everyone.

I for one have been vocal about the WG issue, not because I wanted to go to WG but because I see poor quality this ends up being in the program and the company short change itself and more importantly the client when they use people who have little or no experience to do a job that should have been open to people with experience. As for proof, well you are proof, I don’t have to point to any more bending of the rules as this but also I was told by my CC who was completely honest about it that this happens more often than not and it is favoritism towards the fleet owner when this situation takes place and it was not liked by many within the company, so Phil favoritism does happen.

So if it happens in the elite part of the company, what makes you think that it does not happen anywhere else?

You apparently never worked in a really really large company to learn that policies mean nothing or are applied when they are needed to be applied. Sometimes it is show, sometimes they are used to get rid of people. I worked at one where sexual harassment was against the company values, there were videos we had to watch with the CEO who said if it took place, it would be dealt with harshly and he spelled out clearly policies against it which including termination, but these policies were not uniformly enforce it because it served a purpose for the company to enforce it for specific cases but not for others. The same goes for FedEx, they are a big company and the one thing I was told when I sat down to meet with my CC the first time is that there are always exceptions to all the rules. What would my CC gain by saying something like that when management knows d*mn good and well it really causes people to think twice about entering into the program like WG after working hard to prove themselves while others who never been in a truck let alone proved themselves can start off at the top?

Just for the record Phil, that was not pointed to you at all, just illustrating it for you. I am pointing the finger at the former owner of my truck - he hired people with no experience and put them into the truck as WG drivers.

As I read you last paragraph, this popped into my mind;

You want what?

What, people to research the industry without negative stories or experiences?

How convenient.

Look Phil, it is all good and well but you need to get a grip on your criticism of me, I am relaying my experience whether good or bad, things I see and what I have been told but I never said that people will fail at FedEx just by joining them. I said and listen very carefully – regardless what the experts say about any company, the company is the key factor in your success and failure. It is not whether you drive an RVing expediter truck or a beat up van, it is the company. In other words, the company is the mitigating factor in that big word Success.

I also never said FedEx is a bad company but I get tired of defense of things from a few, not all, who know better. I want people to know that this company is good for some; it is not good for others just as it can be said the same as Landstar and Panther. This has nothing to do with me feeling bad about leaving either, in all honestly I actually feel good that I can made it through without selling the truck like others and be able to move to another company and that I worked for a company I do appreciate and still use.

I feel FedEx can improve things but they seem not to want to.

You know what I was told when I asked why no one from sales got back to me?

It wasn’t important to call me to ask what the problem was.

You know what I was told when I made the suggestion that they need to retrain the dispatchers because they failed to keep notes and it slowed down the response to customers needs?

Guess what it was?

Why would I be so concern to bring up these things after I left?

What makes you think I am trashing the company when I know that they could look at Landstar and improve their staff by putting them on commission instead of hiring kids who never seen a truck before. Or better yet, as I suggested to them two months after I left, hire people (like you) who want to get off the road but still be active in this business, with technology as it is today, they can do this from the comforts of your home and make a big positive impact to the drivers, owners who have to deal with dispatch and a really big improvement with the customer. An owner talking to someone who thinks like they do compare to talking to someone who wants to leave at the end of their shift to go pick up girls makes a difference in attitude towards the entire picture – that was another personal experience by the way.

 

[nightcreacher]

if yu put the dispatchers on a commision then you are going to deal with favoritism.Greg,i agree with some of the things you say and some i dont.I stated in a post yesturday,that this company suits me but may not suit anyone else.Ive dealt with agents before such as landstar has,when the agent has his own fleet,and some other favorites,its hard to make a living.I have friends that are agents,and was told what i could get if i changed companies,non of which will make me what i make here.A buddy of mine is an ex roberts owner,his wife is a lanstar agent,he doesnt lease his trucks to landstar either,he doesnt care for their system,and yes hes tried it,remember his wife is an agent

 

[greg334]

if yu put the dispatchers on a commision then you are going to deal with favoritism.Greg,i agree with some of the things you say and some i dont.I stated in a post yesturday,that this company suits me but may not suit anyone else.Ive dealt with agents before such as landstar has,when the agent has his own fleet,and some other favorites,its hard to make a living.I have friends that are agents,and was told what i could get if i changed companies,non of which will make me what i make here.A buddy of mine is an ex roberts owner,his wife is a lanstar agent,he doesnt lease his trucks to landstar either,he doesnt care for their system,and yes hes tried it,remember his wife is an agent

Steve,
Exactly what I am saying, people have to look at the companies closely in order to make the choice that fits them. In my case FedEx was good until they made changes which allowed more options to the customer. I am not the only one who thinks this was a bad move, a lot have left over it and many don't even know about it.

I understand that point about commission I only use it as an example of one idea that could be taken seriously. I would expect the dispatchers to be on strict commission to show favoritism, but some sort of incentive could help out with the attitude that it is just a job with a bunch of them. I don't remember the turnover rate, I would think it could be lower than it appears to be but in truth I see a problem there that can be fixed.

For example, I have had this happen to me a lot of times, there is no hand off of trucks under loads in many cases between shifts when there are customer issues. I heard of one today which shows that this is still a problem. What I mean is I call into dispatch, explain a problem about the load that there may be and then call back, get "so and so has left for the day" and have to explain things all over again because there are no notes in the computer. In the case of what I heard today, the driver repeated the same thing over and over and got upset at the dispatcher he talked to next because no one took notes. I know that there are a lot of dispatcher that care to make sure that this is no problems they go beyond what is expected but it only takes a few to see that there is a bit more ambiguity than what should be.

Oh Phil, I am happy that you and others are making money, I am not jealous or upset at people making money. I don't use that as a gauge to my success as others do.

 

[davekc]

Greg wrote
I for one have been vocal about the WG issue, not because I wanted to go to WG but because I see poor quality this ends up being in the program and the company short change itself and more importantly the client when they use people who have little or no experience to do a job that should have been open to people with experience. As for proof, well you are proof, I don’t have to point to any more bending of the rules as this but also I was told by my CC who was completely honest about it that this happens more often than not and it is favoritism towards the fleet owner when this situation takes place and it was not liked by many within the company, so Phil favoritism does happen

Umm????? Looks like favortism or Phil got someone fired?

 

[nightcreacher]

W/G is a sore subject with me.I was one of the 1st trucks in W/G iv been back with FECC now for 3 years,and i'm still 60th on the waiting list to get back in there,and yes I know there are drivers being put in with absolutely no experience,and never will have.I woudnt call that favoritism,getting to feel im a red headed step child.I did haul 88 W/G loads last year

 

[ATeam]

Greg wrote
I for one have been vocal about the WG issue, not because I wanted to go to WG but because I see poor quality this ends up being in the program and the company short change itself and more importantly the client when they use people who have little or no experience to do a job that should have been open to people with experience. As for proof, well you are proof, I don’t have to point to any more bending of the rules as this but also I was told by my CC who was completely honest about it that this happens more often than not and it is favoritism towards the fleet owner when this situation takes place and it was not liked by many within the company, so Phil favoritism does happen

Umm????? Looks like favortism or Phil got someone fired?

Let's be careful about how we are using the word favoritism.

When I said there was no favoritism at FedEx Custom Critical, it was said in the context then being discussed; namely, in loads being fairly dispatched. Specifically, I was talking about the kind of favoritism that will get a FedEx Custom Critical dispatcher fired if caught doing it.

Now, Greg and DaveKC have shifted the topic to favoritism in Wite Glove credentialling practices. That is a legitimate topic. Just note that is a different topic.

No one bent the rules to credential Diane and me as White Glove drivers, then drivers for a fleet owner. We followed a legitimate path of entry that was then published in the contractor's manual. Our advantage was research we did and a fleet owner who helped us learn of the path.

Our professional backgrounds and interviewing skills helped get us in; as did our fleet owner, our choice to enter the industry in a WG truck, and the carrier's then current need for WG drivers. At that time, we were not the only ones to get into WG early on, under the rules then in effect.

Things have changed since then. Today, we would not be able to get into WG as quickly, even in a fleet owner's WG truck that is already in the WG fleet.

Whether FedEx Custom Critcal acted wisely by making us WG drivers early on is clearly an item of varying opinion. What I know for sure is, and this I am proud to say, Diane and I proved worthy of the trust our carrier placed in us.

 

[Jefferson3000]

Great post!

I'm curious though.. if they need 1500 trucks to cover 500 customers/loads, why not just have something like 750 trucks, and post the no-pays to the load boards?

If they throw the stinker loads on the load board, they will either be upside down on the pay, or it won't get covered. You think I'm gonna run some crappy load that you turned down for nothing? I know a lot of leased O/Os who know to ask for more money on a load if the pay stinks. If they don't get it, they don't run it. You're not helpless out there as a leasee. You're only helpless if you're waiting for "mommy" to do all of the thinking for you. Loads don't go out for less on the bid board than you leased guys are getting. They're going for more. Sometimes a LOT more.

 

[Jefferson3000]

BTW, if you really really want a chance at being successful at this, instead of complaining as to why it isn't working for you, I'd go back and do some reading. If you're with Panther or another carrier who uses flat rate, I'd do a search on everything someone like DaveKC has ever posted. Dave isn't in this because he can't do anything else. He obviously knows how to make things work with his carrier, especially since Panther lets him book his own loads as well.

If I were with Fedex, I'd go back and read some of the O/Os who been with them for many years, such as Nightcreacher, TerryandRene, and others (no offense if I left someone out). My point is that they've learned how to function within the system that their carrier uses. If you think the system is disagreeable now, go back and read what some have said about the "good ol' days."

There's no room to cry if you signed on the line. Either function in the system, or go get your own authority. (Most whiners don't do that, because it actually means responsibility.) Gosh, I'm sounding more like the Colonel every day.

 

[TeamCaffee]

Dave or another fleet owner, can you say how Panther handles this situation? Is the truck considered an Elite truck or is it just the driver? If you or anyone else as a fleet owner lose a driver in an Elite truck and cannot find another Elite qualified driver what is the process for the new driver that is not qualified? Does the truck now lose its Elite status and go to the back of the line to wait the driver to become qualified and then to wait its turn for the one truck O/O to get into the Elite services?
Is it favoritism for the fleets to keep their slot in White Glove and bring on new drivers quickly to drive these trucks? Should the fleet owner once they lose a driver now also lose the qualifications for that truck and go back to the end of the line? As harsh as it is what is the reality of this happening?

 

[Bruno]

Gregg you and me try to agree on things most of the time.

But, I would have to say your wrong on this one. As a Fleet Manager for two different fleets. FedEx Custom Critcal does not or will not skip a truck to give a load to a fleet owners trucks. Gregg I don't know what happened with you and FedEx, there could be many things that was the reason you felt you couldn't make it with FedEx. Was you running team? Did you have White Glove equitment in the truck? So many things that factor into what can make you or break you with FedEx Custom Critical. Let us know how you do at Landstar.

 

[greg334]

Whoa there Philly, there is no shifting of any subject. My post was in response to you coming out and pretty much telling me I am full of it without even talking to me to ask me what happened or why I am saying what I am saying.

But really to beat all, I never mentioned favoritism in this thread, amazing that you missed it when you took the thread off subject in the first place to call me out.

And I find that your comment somewhat clear, you are not talking about just dispatching, you are implying I don’t have no evidence of any favoritism.

And before you go there, I reject your assertion that FedEx plays favorites. You have zero proof of that…..

I was on subject the Easytrader asked about what he was told and I responded with the following;

FedEx has moved to integrate some of the CC services they offer into other parts of the company, giving the customer options. A wise move that they do this to a point. The problem in doing so is what I describe last year is that some intake agents assume that the customer does not know what they want or they are told to direct X amount of business to Freight or Express, not CC.

Let me explain it so you have a clear understanding; It means that FedEx is hedging their resources to prevent loses in the future by giving the customer more choices, hence an edge over competition.

Also I mention that it is a wise move to do so because they can do it due to their size but I added that there is a serious hole in the changes that they have not addressed or seem to want to.

If you want the executive summary, you’re out of luck there guy.

No where in that post did I use WG, Favoritism or anything that seemed to ruffle your feathers like it did. What I did post was factual, I mentioned it has holes, I mentioned in the past the customer and I mentioned the response or lack of I got from the pleas I made. If that is not good enough, what can I say.

Oh and it was not off subject.

Now when you post appeared, it took the thread off subject. No rhyme or reason why, what I said had nothing to do with you, or the points you bought up but I had to respond to it.

In doing so now you say I brought it off topic. Ummm.... go figure... by the way Dave was responding to my post which is funny in itself - thanks Dave.

Wait, so I brought it off topic by responding?

Are you alright there Phil?

Are you losing it being under so much pressure?

Don’t let this get to you, I am pointing out things that you you never asked directly but assumed I was full of it. I forgive you.

It seems that you have said in the past that you started directly into WG, or did that change? Am I mistaken?

See Phil maybe qualifying for WG still means that someone bent the rules or ignored the policy, and in doing so did you a favor. Now I maybe wrong about this but in order to qualify the policy says that you have to start in Surface, not just submit the application and find an owner. Then there is a waiting list, a list that Steve mentioned that he was 60th on the list, which is wrong - he should have been taken over others. Opps that is bending the rules too.. see how you can mistaken the right thing for the wrong thing. Anywho If they qualified you as a walk in, so to speak that is even worst than having a fleet owner pull the strings (or bend them rules) to get someone in.

Also I would like to know how professional background helps one in this business with a company like FedEx? The last I heard all of that means nothing, but it may help others.

Sorry to all EO members, Lawrence and Dreamer for my rants. I know I am long winded but I am having fun after a horrible weekend. I hope everyone returns this to the subject at hand – not favoritism or WG or anything else because someone a while back said we need to police off subject threads, remember?

 

[davekc]

I'll cover a couple of issues.
Linder,
With regards to Elite services, the truck has to qualify for Elite. Correct specs, panic button etc. The fleet owner must have a Elite qualified driver/team in the truck. If that driver quits or whatever, that truck loses its status until another Elite driver/team is put in it. Can't be just a driver. They have to attend class pass DOD clearance much like the Fed.
There is no waiting list assuming qualifications are met as that division has been expanding rather rapidly.

Phil, you would have been better off not to make the post you did. You are implying that it was "your interviewing skills, background, and fleet owner" that got you in.
That is favoritism and a slap in the face to the ones like Steve who is #60 in line, and has waited three years.
You must think everyone Phil is a total idiot? I would be inclined to believe it had EVERYTHING to do with your particular fleet owner. I have heard that same complaint 100 times with regards to WG policies.

Hey Jefferson....thanks for the plug.